ISU has cancelled 2021 Europeans, ISU Grand Prix Final, World Junior Synchro; Stockholm Worlds still on for now

[skatfan]

And as one high-level competitor has already directly relayed into this thread, they would NOT prefer a definite no at this point. If the skaters have competed at all this year and are still training, you better believe most, if not all of them will say they'd like to hold on to whatever hope may exist into getting a potential Worlds.

But we have had a national federation openly express concerns about holding a world championship when their skaters have not competed in any live competitions and training has been interrupted. Other federations may also be opposed behind the scenes - we just don’t know.

The Russians will have a large advantage should worlds be held since they have had a full schedule of in-country competitions. I’m sure Tiff thinks she’s got an edge.

 

[Lemonade20]

Unless the skaters hoping to compete at Worlds are healthcare professionals, live in nursing homes, are over the age of 65, or have an underlying condition like chronic lung disease or a severe heart condition, they aren't likely to be fully vaccinated by March.



Valtter Virtanen FTW!!!

My point exactly. It’s unrealistic to expect the Worlds to happen in person unless all skaters have been vaccinated and/or country restrictions have been relaxed. You can hold local events for those within your country but it’s a different game trying to bring 10-20 countries together.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

My point exactly. It’s unrealistic to expect the Worlds to happen in person unless all skaters have been vaccinated and/or country restrictions have been relaxed. You can hold local events for those within your country but it’s a different game trying to bring 10-20 countries together.

And yet other sports are doing it without a vaccine.

 

[tony]

But we have had a national federation openly express concerns about holding a world championship when their skaters have not competed in any live competitions and training has been interrupted. Other federations may also be opposed behind the scenes - we just don’t know.

The Russians will have a large advantage should worlds be held since they have had a full schedule of in-country competitions. I’m sure Tiff thinks she’s got an edge.

Italy has events every other week. Many of the European skaters in general have already competed 'internationally' 2 or 3 times this year. The USFS turned one weekend into two competitions. Canada has domestic competitions. Japan has domestic competitions running as normal. Kevin Aymoz went to Belarus to be able to compete.

So put an asterisk next to the event if you personally want. I already mentioned a few replies ago that the ISU can decide at any point that this doesn't count for 2022 qualifying, and I don't think it should anyways when you consider countries are bringing in their 2019 Worlds allotments. Not the end of the world to revise qualifying procedures to Beijing.

It still doesn't mean that the majority of skaters are going to say they would rather have the event canceled (which is what you've chosen to reply to). I'm sure even the Canadian skaters would WANT to compete if they could. If they've competed anywhere this year, they've traveled from A to B. They've been in the rink daily. They've likely even had to take a flight to get to point B- US skaters included and some of these planes are back to near or full-capacity.

If the judging panels can be filled internationally (and I'm quite sure they could), and the ISU can make the event happen, either in March or at a later date, I'm still not understanding why a flight to Sweden puts people suddenly at much more risk than a packed domestic flight to get to a national-level competition. And for the 'but we have to consider the older coaches' -- they've also been traveling and the ones in Russia don't even wear their masks correctly some of the time.

And RE: Tiffany Zagorski having an 'edge'. What? To move up a spot or two in the standings because Canadian dancers maybe won't be there? Please. US skaters are all still training, the Italians are competing at Nationals this weekend, etc. Wow. Definite edge.

 

[missing]

I've thought about the two Grand Slam events tennis managed to play (New York, then France) to see if they were comparable to Worlds, since I don't feel the Grand Prix events are.

Tennis probably has a lot more money. Its prize money for the players is substantially more than my understanding of what skaters win, so that may factor in. But tennis and skating are lengthy events (Grand Slams taking 2 weeks) and involve players from around the world, and their ages are roughly comparable to skaters' ages.

The Grand Slams were not completely successful events- players did have to leave for not following protocol and being exposed. And at least some of the tennis players weren't thrilled with the stringent bubble concept. In addition, some players only did the European part and others only did the New York part, so neither event had its full field.

I think the biggest difference is the timing of the events. The tennis tournaments were played during what I called the CV vacation. Infection rates were low in both the United States and Europe. Those rates have gone up substantially since then, and while some of that can be blamed on the American holiday of Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years are celebrated at roughly throughout the same time all over the world. Some US government official has been muttering that we can expect daily death rates close to 3000 for the next 60-90 days, which would put us into March. Infection rates should go down thanks to the vaccines but I don't think the entire world will be fully vaccinated by March, and while the elderly might have a better chance of staying CV free, I'm not sure younger people will.

So I remain skeptical that a March Worlds will work. I hope planning for an April or May Worlds can be done and that alternate ways of establishing Olympic teams can be worked out. I'd like to see live skating with real people in the stands and feel less angst at sloppily worn masks. I can wait a couple of months for that, if it proves doable.

 

[AxelAnnie]

And yet other sports are doing it without a vaccine.

Does 't make right or safe. Anyone who has children or has been a child, has heard the best and most used argument of all time. BUT, EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT!

 

[AxelAnnie]

I've thought about the two Grand Slam events tennis managed to play (New York, then France) to see if they were comparable to Worlds, since I don't feel the Grand Prix events are.

Tennis probably has a lot more money. Its prize money for the players is substantially more than my understanding of what skaters win, so that may factor in. But tennis and skating are lengthy events (Grand Slams taking 2 weeks) and involve players from around the world, and their ages are roughly comparable to skaters' ages.

The Grand Slams were not completely successful events- players did have to leave for not following protocol and being exposed. And at least some of the tennis players weren't thrilled with the stringent bubble concept. In addition, some players only did the European part and others only did the New York part, so neither event had its full field.

I think the biggest difference is the timing of the events. The tennis tournaments were played during what I called the CV vacation. Infection rates were low in both the United States and Europe. Those rates have gone up substantially since then, and while some of that can be blamed on the American holiday of Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years are celebrated at roughly throughout the same time all over the world. Some US government official has been muttering that we can expect daily death rates close to 3000 for the next 60-90 days, which would put us into March. Infection rates should go down thanks to the vaccines but I don't think the entire world will be fully vaccinated by March, and while the elderly might have a better chance of staying CV free, I'm not sure younger people will.

So I remain skeptical that a March Worlds will work. I hope planning for an April or May Worlds can be done and that alternate ways of establishing Olympic teams can be worked out. I'd like to see live skating with real people in the stands and feel less angst at sloppily worn masks. I can wait a couple of months for that, if it proves doable.

It seems to me that The just would be much easier to manage and safeguard participant health than skating. First of all.....big time tennis players have access to a tennis court. Can practice with a coach.....who can distance and yell. Travel would have the same issues.


I don't mean to demean tennis. It is just has different problems than skating.

 

[mjb52]

We also are already seeing international skating events involving multiple countries, albeit ones that are geographically closer to each other. There are I think four skating events going on this weekend alone. I guess sometimes it just seems to me like people want Worlds to be cancelled for some reason of their own. That's the part I don't get. It's like they find this strange satisfaction in things being cancelled even though there are athletic events going on all over the world right now in many different sports. It's weird to me.

 

[tony]

Does 't make right or safe. Anyone who has children or has been a child, has heard the best and most used argument of all time. BUT, EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT!

But then what are you saying about skaters going to the rink every day, going to lunch, going to the gym, going to the grocery store, going ON A FLIGHT for domestic competitions (yes, those are happening in many places), gathering in small groups, etc?

So do you want to also come down on every single person who is not sitting inside their homes?

We also are already seeing international skating events involving multiple countries, albeit ones that are geographically closer to each other. There are I think four skating events going on this weekend alone. I guess sometimes it just seems to me like people want Worlds to be cancelled for some reason of their own. That's the part I don't get. It's like they find this strange satisfaction in things being cancelled even though there are athletic events going on all over the world right now in many different sports. It's weird to me.

It's weird to me, too, unless people truly are sitting at home 24/7 and think everyone else is as well. But the people on this board know the skaters are training every day and competing as much as they can. (ETA sorry @mjb52 when I edited in your quote, it didn't include you)

 

[MacMadame]

There were four GP events this season, some with far better health standards than other(s).

As I said, there were 3 that weren't super-spreader events and 1 that was. 3 + 1 still equals 4 even in this "post-truth" world.

I've thought about the two Grand Slam events tennis managed to play (New York, then France) to see if they were comparable to Worlds, since I don't feel the Grand Prix events are.

The GP events are a lot closer to Worlds than tennis is.

There is no requirement to have herd immunity to put on a Worlds. Having a vaccine will help because lots of judges and officials will have had it and will be more willing to work the event. Active infections should be down by March but definitely by April or May because of a combination of people getting vaccinated and more stuff being able to happen outside.

What they need is a way to operate an event like this successfully is to be able to create a bubble and to follow the ISU recommendations. We saw events that did this and they worked. Worlds will be bigger but it will not be substantially different. So it just requires a bigger bubble, but not much else different.

I just don't see Worlds not happening. It may not happen in March but it will happen and probably a lot sooner than Fall.

 

[AxelAnnie]

We also are already seeing international skating events involving multiple countries, albeit ones that are geographically closer to each other. There are I think four skating events going on this weekend alone. I guess sometimes it just seems to me like people want Worlds to be cancelled for some reason of their own. That's the part I don't get. It's like they find this strange satisfaction in things being cancelled even though there are athletic events going on all over the world right now in many different sports. It's weird to me.

Wow that is a leap I've the river of logic! What people? What kinds of reasons?

 

[skatfan]

Italy has events every other week. Many of the European skaters in general have already competed 'internationally' 2 or 3 times this year. The USFS turned one weekend into two competitions. Canada has domestic competitions. Japan has domestic competitions running as normal. Kevin Aymoz went to Belarus to be able to compete.

It still doesn't mean that the majority of skaters are going to say they would rather have the event canceled (which is what you've chosen to reply to). I'm sure even the Canadian skaters would WANT to compete if they could. If they've competed anywhere this year, they've traveled from A to B. They've been in the rink daily. They've likely even had to take a flight to get to point B- US skaters included and some of these planes are back to near or full-capacity.

And their Federation would have to let them go to Worlds, and said Federation seemed reluctant a few weeks ago. As I said, hard to judge what’s happening behind the scenes but we’re 0 for 3 on bigger internationals (GP Final, 4CCs, and Euros) happening because of local and travel restrictions. I do think it’s possible but not likely that Worlds will happen. Let’s see how Sweden does in the next two months.

And I do think the Russians have the advantage in being competition ready. Whether that works out for Tiff or not.

 

[taz'smum]

And I do think the Russians have the advantage in being competition ready. Whether that works out for Tiff or not.

I agree that the Russians would have an advantage as they seem to be the only country with a full schedule of competitions.
Before Worlds many Russian skaters will have done

​

1 Test skates​

3 Russian cup comps (2 qualifiers and the final)​

1 GP​

1 Nationals​

1 Euro replacement competition​

That is a max of 7 competitions, which would make them much more competition ready than other countries.

For this reason amongst others, I do not think it is fair that Worlds is used as an Olympic qualifier.
(even if it might benefit Tiff/Russia for it to be the Olympic qualifier)

I think it would be fairer to have 2 Olympic qualifying comps in the Autumn.
The first comp would be a preliminary comp open to all skaters with no minimums but with a max of 3 skaters per country.
The top 30 in the preliminary comp would then qualify for the 2nd comp - the Olympic qualifier.

That would give new teams a chance and would be the fairest way IMHO.

 

[Frau Muller]

As I said, there were 3 that weren't super-spreader events and 1 that was. 3 + 1 still equals 4 even in this "post-truth" world.


The GP events are a lot closer to Worlds than tennis is.

There is no requirement to have herd immunity to put on a Worlds. Having a vaccine will help because lots of judges and officials will have had it and will be more willing to work the event. Active infections should be down by March but definitely by April or May because of a combination of people getting vaccinated and more stuff being able to happen outside.

What they need is a way to operate an event like this successfully is to be able to create a bubble and to follow the ISU recommendations. We saw events that did this and they worked. Worlds will be bigger but it will not be substantially different. So it just requires a bigger bubble, but not much else different.

I just don't see Worlds not happening. It may not happen in March but it will happen and probably a lot sooner than Fall.

Sounds right. No disrespect was intended earlier. I’m super busy & even traveling for work these days - with tests & certificates! - so I only read the last couple of posts when entering a thread, if it’s one that I’ve ignored for a while.

 

[Dobre]

Last I checked, Stepanova & Bukin had yet to compete this season and Sinitsina & Katsalapov had done an event and 1/2. All three likely teams to qualify for the World team have been sick, though Z&G faced the challenge early on. S&K had an injury. Also 90% of the international field has already put in a full competitive season with the pattern & their RDs.

 

[taz'smum]

Last I checked, Stepanova & Bukin had yet to compete this season and Sinitsina & Katsalapov had done an event and 1/2. All three likely teams to qualify for the World team have been sick, though Z&G faced the challenge early on. S&K had an injury. Also 90% of the international field has already put in a full competitive season with the pattern & their RDs.

S/K are still sick and are out of Nationals.

S/B will start their season at Nationals but are said to be ready. They have reverted to last season's FD.

Jon has been very sick since the GP, which despite negative tests, seems to be remarkably C19 like.
He has only just got back on the ice and is limited in how much he can train.
If Nationals were not in less than 2 weeks, he wouldn't be on the ice.

So all 3 teams are struggling this season.

 

[starrynight]

Are there travel issues on trans-continental flights between Europe/Asia/North America? Are there plenty of available flights to guarantee passage and return of the athletes?

(As international travel is not possible for Australians, I don't know the answer to the above question).

At any rate, if a worlds goes ahead in March, there's every chance it'll be an imbalanced splatfest. And if it is used to select Olympic spots - probably scandal laden.

 

[MsZem]

For this reason amongst others, I do not think it is fair that Worlds is used as an Olympic qualifier.
(even if it might benefit Tiff/Russia for it to be the Olympic qualifier)

I'm sure you as a skating parent know this, but skaters, and athletes in general, never have a level playing field. Even in a normal season, some have access to training conditions that are simply not available to others, due to $$$, where they're from, etc. Developmental opportunities vary widely by country.

I'll use an older ice dance example - Roman Zaretsky had to stay in Israel for several years because he was doing compulsory military service. It wouldn't have been particularly demanding, but there are considerably less training and competitive opportunities for someone based in Israel compared to someone in North America or Russia. Turning to current/recent skaters, Donovan Carrillo is not on an even playing field as other skaters. Michael Christian Martinez did not have the sort of opportunities a skater in Japan would have. Skaters who are fortunate enough to find partners in their countries don't have deal with being blocked from competing like Tiff was.

There will never be a way to make elite competition 100% fair to everyone. The question is, what will be the fairest solution here? But there are just too many unknowns at the moment to say.

 

[taz'smum]

I'm sure you as a skating parent know this, but skaters, and athletes in general, never have a level playing field. Even in a normal season, some have access to training conditions that are simply not available to others, due to $$$, where they're from, etc. Developmental opportunities vary widely by country.

There will never be a way to make elite competition 100% fair to everyone. The question is, what will be the fairest solution here? But there are just too many unknowns at the moment to say.

Totally agree!

 

[starrynight]

skaters, and athletes in general, never have a level playing field. Even in a normal season, some have access to training conditions that are simply not available to others, due to $$$, where they're from, etc. Developmental opportunities vary widely by country.

Fair point. Athletes from smaller feds and countries where no funding is available always have had fewer opportunities.

But my feeling is that the current situation is a bit different. It's sure going to be disappointing if we watch an Olympics where the spots were heavily influenced by 'rona infection rates etc from various countries and the various measures governments took to restrict the spread.

Equally disappointing if athletes fail the 'rona test on arrival to worlds. A couple of positive test from some prominent skaters could wipe out a nation's spots immediately.

I know things can't always be fair, but good quality skating competitions always happen when the conditions are good. Heck there's been some splatfests at post Olympics worlds, but I think this upcoming Worlds is going to be an even bigger challenge.

Figure skating is a very global sport, where we all love athletes across all countries. And where a lot of athletes compete with minimal support from feds and are just sole operators on their own. I just want it to be a reasonable competition for everyone where all athletes are supported.

And I know a lot of sports have resumed - but the question is what the ISU is capable of funding and organising.

 

[MsZem]

Equally disappointing if athletes fail the 'rona test on arrival to worlds. A couple of positive test from some prominent skaters could wipe out a nation's spots immediately.

I think you'd want to have substitutes on site for such a possibility, and I hope that's considered if Worlds are held. Also, skaters should travel separately from teammates (I don't mean pairs/dance teams, obviously) to limit potential exposure if there's an infected person en route.

But it's not unprecedented for a skater to have health issues that leave them unable to compete, or for someone to screw up unexpectedly in a way that affects spots for future events. And unlike, say, Kevin Aymoz's meltdown leaving France with only one men's entry at the next Euros and no way to fix that, if a country doesn't have any qualifiers via Worlds, at least there's another chance at Nebelhorn (or whatever other event is used).

 

[starrynight]

Does the ISU/Swedish fed have the ability to fund things like testing, additional hotel stays, bubbles etc? It’s a lot of money when there’s likely not going to be ticket sales.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Are there travel issues on trans-continental flights between Europe/Asia/North America? Are there plenty of available flights to guarantee passage and return of the athletes?

(As international travel is not possible for Australians, I don't know the answer to the above question).
K
At any rate, if a worlds goes ahead in March, there's every chance it'll be an imbalanced splatfest. And if it is used to select Olympic spots - probably scandal laden.

I don't know about splatfest...but certainly worthless as a measure of anything. . Think 1961 worlds. The ISU recognized the devastation of that plane crash
and cancelled World's.

With over 1.6 million deaths to date...I would like to think that all involved in skating would not risk a single death by having a competition that at the end of the day will be meaningless.
It is figure skating ....not world peace or a cure for cancer. Worlds is not important in the scheme of things. Let's keep it in perspective people.

And yes...I do know that people have been working hard for their goals. And I know it is the run up to OLYS. But I also know that all involved in skating will be safer with World's being cancelled.

 

[clairecloutier]

I tend to agree with @allezfred that Worlds 2021 will be probably held if there is any possible way, if only because it is the easiest thing for the ISU to do in terms of Olympic qualification. Postponement to April/May would be great but I'm not sure of the logistics of that decision. Having to plan some kind of new fall qualifier for the Olympics is certainly not impossible, but it would be difficult and probably controversial, which are 2 things the ISU would rather avoid.

It is interesting to think about where the "big countries" would fall in terms of support for a cancellation of Worlds or postponement to fall. It seems Russia would certainly oppose cancellation, while Canada might likely support it. Where China, Japan, and USA stand is less certain.

I am also not sure if the athletes themselves would welcome a big fall qualifier. We saw after the cancellation of Worlds this past spring that there was little to no support among athletes and coaches for moving Worlds to fall 2020. So that's another question.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Whether or not they would welcome a big fall qualifier sort of irrelevant. I think we are probably going to have to have one unless worlds can be run completely as normal because it’s likely that if there is any YKW affect on the world championships, it will not be reasonable to use it as the qualifier for the Olympics. Even if the world championships are held, it is very likely that they won’t be used as the Olympic qualifier.

 

[skategal]

2021 might be the year that Nebelhorn Trophy becomes the biggest, baddest Olympic qualifying event since 1994 when the pros came back.

 

[mjb52]

I think there's a big difference between a fall qualifier and having Worlds in the fall.

 

[tony]

Are there travel issues on trans-continental flights between Europe/Asia/North America? Are there plenty of available flights to guarantee passage and return of the athletes?

(As international travel is not possible for Australians, I don't know the answer to the above question).

At any rate, if a worlds goes ahead in March, there's every chance it'll be an imbalanced splatfest. And if it is used to select Olympic spots - probably scandal laden.

A splatfest? Am I missing the part where skaters have been off-ice all season?

You don't need to compete 10 times a year to guarantee a good skate. Sometimes skaters think they are completely prepared and melt down.

They've been practicing. Why you'd assume they haven't or that they aren't ready is beyond me. I don't know any country besides France that has actually shut down Nationals- so they'd all be competing in that event at the very least..

 

[clairecloutier]

I think there's a big difference between a fall qualifier and having Worlds in the fall.

If all the countries were competing at a fall qualifier with entrants based on their Nationals, how is that different from Worlds, except in name?

 

[MsZem]

I don't know any country besides France that has actually shut down Nationals- so they'd all be competing in that event at the very least..

France is supposed to be doing test skates, though, and some of their skaters competed in Minsk this weekend.

While looking that up I came across this update, which I am sharing for no good reason