ISU Congress

aftershocks

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And @aftershocks you never fail to remind this board that you dislike Hanyu, whatever thread you're posting in, but IIRC the general consensus here is not that "he's the greatest artist ever graced the ice", even if he's really good, so those endless sarcastically sentences are getting a bit tiresome. And no, I'm not the crazy Hanyu uber. I just happen to enjoy good old-fashion quality skating, like edge work and a 3axel from bracket entrance.

Sorry, thread drift! I'm waiting for more tights-news!

I don't dislike Yuzuru Hanyu @SmallFairy. I respect Yuzu and his talent, even though I'm not a huge fan. I've always been honest about why, but you and others can continue to read whatever you please into my comments. :) There are things about Yuzu's skating that don't draw me in, which does not mean he isn't a phenomenal skater and an extraordinary competitor. I don't think he has great line and extension, and he still has room to further develop his performance abilities and interpretive qualities (but that's difficult to focus on when trying to up and maintain the quad ante; also it's not worth bothering about when you can rely on judges to consistently hand you nearly perfect scores on PE, CO, and IN; but that's how the OT in this thread got started -- the judges reward consistent quadsters).

At his best, Yuzu's technical talents and ability to flow effortlessly over the ice are simply out of this world. But I'm not an overwrought uber of Yuzu or any other skater. I call it as I see it. You can do the same, and you don't have to like how I express myself. That's par for the course on Internet forums.
 
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Bellanca

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3,301
Why is there such an overbearing urgency to push the sport's technical content back to the 1980's? Presently, it's an easy concept to grasp that if a skater can't do the jumps, they probably won't win the big titles and medals, plain and simple.

Why this overzealous desire to strip away or remove altogether the challenge presented by attempting and succeeding at achieving difficult elements? For what reason? And to what end?

The sport should regress to appease a few fan favorites beloved by a fervent fan base that wholeheartedly believes their skaters deserve and are owed this concession? So with this, the pressure is consistently being applied to ensure all skaters have an equal opportunity to win medals ignoring the fact they cannot successfully do the required jumps they usually need to do to keep up with their competitors.

And if only those pesky, unfair rules that merely cater to the technician while holding down the beauty of the artist and their icy creativity would just go away...

Really?? :rolleyes:

Sincerely,
Elvis Stojko :2faced:
 
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aftershocks

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17,317
Hanyu manages to seamlessly weave those quads (an everything else) into the program, that it what makes him stand out so much to me. Hope Nathan can get there too, even if his style is more "dynamic". Lack of better word...

In the eye of the beholder though regarding subjective perceptions. There's absolutely no doubt that Hanyu flows seamlessly over the ice, but he doesn't do it with admirable line and extension. Also, quads take a lot of mental focus, so that even in his best performances, Hanyu's attention to aesthetic details and to interpretation of the music is not seamless. That's obvious to anyone who is honest about it, except for those who feel Hanyu can do no wrong.

No skater is perfect and definitely subjectivity and personal preference are involved. But I've never ignored the fact that Nathan has areas where he can continue to improve aesthetically. I'm always honest about what I see, and I'm also willing to accept that there are differences in fans' points of view that can not be bridged. None of us are able to predict or sometimes even fully explain why some skaters draw us in and others don't. A lot of factors are involved.

For me, it does boil down to different styles, and to some other indefinable qualities that make us as individual fans pull more for some skaters over others. These days there's so much depth that I enjoy many skaters, but we all have our favorites. And our feelings can change over time. I liked Hanyu a lot when I first saw him, as his movement quality was reminiscent at first to that of Johnny Weir (his idol). However, I became less enthralled with Hanyu's skating as his career progressed, which again does not mean he isn't phenomenally talented. Some of his performances are jaw-dropping and mesmerizing, but he hasn't truly evolved artistically, because the sport places so much more emphasis on the technical aspects and it takes so much physical and mental energy to put out quad-filled programs. The sport IMO asks too much of these athletes.

Nathan made a conscious choice to focus on training quads which necessarily put fine-tuning other aspects of his skating on the backburner. But neither has he completely ignored fine-tuning his presentation skills. Indeed, Nathan has a more dynamic, energetic quality to his skating than Hanyu. And yes, Nathan's fp last season had great potential but it was impossible for him to fully develop that program given the technical demands and competitive pressures he faced in the Olympic season. It also may have been a program that's slightly beyond Nathan to fully interpret at this stage of his maturity. That's a shame of course, but not his fault. Neither is it Hanyu's fault that the judging system is set up the way it is, which means he too hasn't reached his full potential artistically. Hanyu just has a smoother style than Nathan, more experience competitively, a suspended quality on quads at his best, and effortless looking edgework on many of his jumps.
 
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aftershocks

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You mean, as he got far and away ten times better than Weir ever was?

:lol: There's no doubt that Yuzuru with Brian Orser's help and his own determination and application of his talent far and away achieved his World and Olympic championship potential which his idol, Johnny Weir, did not ever come close to achieving. Hanyu has his own unique qualities and attributes, but make no mistake that he was inspired by Johnny's skating and he consciously tried and succeeded in emulating Johnny's smooth effortless flow over the ice. Hanyu has been able to surpass Johnny technically because he's exuberantly more motivated and determined than Johnny was. They are from different eras, and overall they have different styles and approaches, as well as different career trajectories. For me, Johnny was more creative and aesthetically precocious than Hanyu. Except for a lack of line and extension, as well as a divided focus artistically in the age of quads, Hanyu (with Orser's help) has managed to become a more complete and accomplished skater than Johnny. And no, that reality has nothing to do with why I became less enthralled with Hanyu over the course of his career. :D

As I've mentioned before, Johnny made some questionable career choices and he was apparently conflicted in terms of his career goals, as well as having been faced with challenges regarding his personal style, which distracted his focus. I also don't think Johnny ever became fully in command of his talent. He seemed to give in to the notion that his late start as a skater hurt his competitive development. But he could have overcome that perceived weakness instead of succumbing to it or using it as an excuse. I do give Johnny credit for being determined to come back and make a second Olympic team in 2010 when the odds and US fed politics were against him.

But you can see it the way you choose @misskarne, as you will.
 
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SamuraiK

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They need "More Study" of increasing the men's components multiplier from 1.0/2.0 to 1.2/2.4, because they believe the change may be too significant at lower levels (juniors on down).

NED said that their simulations with the new multiplier worked fine for a balance between TES ans PCS on the top 10 at Oly/Worlds but that below top 10 it does not work so much.

Lakernik stated he also rum some data analysis and that he found that despite the top 6 having a bigger TES proportion on their scores, the average for all the 24 men in the Olympic was still 50/50 in the LP and 55/45 in the SP. The council was on favor of revising the factoring but before deciding the new factor for each category they need more results statistics with the +-5GOE so it should be better be revised on the next congress. I kinda agree.
 

Lizziebeth

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I don't think it's a ban. Zagitova can still do all of her jumps in the second half, if she wants. She'll just get a bonus for (presumably) the first one she does in the second half of the short program, and the first three she does in the second half of the free skate. If she thinks a well-balanced program requires seven jumping passes in the second half, she can go for it. The judges can reward her on that criterion if they agree.

Many skaters did not backload their jumps, even though they could get extra points for doing so. You do what you can to maximize points.

I remember all of us complaining that the first three elements of every program back in the day were the hardest jump elements :D. It was fun watching Zagitova reel off the jumps in the last half. Unfortunately the first half was a snooze (IMHO). Most programs look better if the jumps are placed throughout (again, (IMHO).
 
S

SmallFairy

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@aftershocks I'm glad to hear you also appreciate Hanyu, you just have a way with words that doesn't reflect it very well, at least that hasn't come across to me:40beers:

In the eye of the beholder though regarding subjective perceptions. There's absolutely no doubt that Hanyu flows seamlessly over the ice, but he doesn't do it with admirable line and extension.

I never said anything about line or extension;) I'm still waiting for the perfect skater who can put it all together at once. Maybe John Curry comes close? But there's lots of skaters with different styles, different packages, not everyone can be balletic like Curry, and fans focus on different qualities. My personal preference goes in the direction of "this guy/lady is really trying to create something special here". Then I can forgive that there isn't a 100% extension all the time or that there is no quads, because that skater could be in 15th place. Think Lucinda Ruh, think Vakhtang Murvanidze. But of course those quads makes me swoon! I never watch exhibitions, I find them mostly boring. :shuffle: I'm in it for the sport, so totally, but since it's skating, I want something more. And Hanyu comes a long way in putting it all together. The proposal of limiting quads is BS, if the skaters can do the quads, let them do the quads. But if they cannot put them together to make real program, then hammer their PCS!
 

SamuraiK

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4,445
The split of the World Standings list ( one for juniors and one for seniors) was also hotly debated:

*AUT began claiming that right now there is a disadvantage for the younger juniors (13-14) who can only skate juniors while the skaters on the 15-19 age range get a big advantage being able to skate both junior and senior competitions and get too many points ( I agree).
*Lakernik accepted the current world standings is not perfect and needs to be revisited but is not so easy as the proposal suggests of simply splitting the current points.
*CAN and RUS manifested their worries of how having 2 separated lists would affect the juniors moving up to seniors.
*Then the technical comitee agreed that the new separate lists would need to have a different criteria for each and that for the juniors moving up there should be a percentage of their junior points transfering to the senior ranks but not all . They were not in favor of a skater performing in the last senior SP groups just based on their succesful junior results ( I kinda agree with this).
*UZB then suggested a third list :rolleyes: for the skaters doing both junior and seniors and the comitees were no no no.

In the end the council assigned the task to the technical comittes of coming up with a new points system and presente it to the Council in the course of the year so that if approved it will take effect in the 19-20 season via a Council resolution and we will not have to wait to the next congress.
 

alchemy void

Post-its for the win.
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@SamuraiK thanks for all the ISU Congress pbp! Much appreciated. :respec:

The World Standings are really bad and simplistic, and have been since day one. There's no reason non-major events receiving weighted points based on strength of field. These fields vary wildly in strength: some are almost GP-caliber, and others are Kerstin Frank gold medal-caliber. Yet they all receive the same blanket amount of points. Very flawed.

I remember calculating figure skating world rankings in Excel as a teenager in the late 90s that was more accurate than what we have now. As you can guess, I was VERY popular in high school. :p
 
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SamuraiK

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@SamuraiK thanks for all the ISU Congress pbp! Much appreciated. :respec:

The World Standings are really bad and simplistic, and have been since day one. There's no reason non-major events aren't getting delegated points based on strength of field. These fields vary wildly in strength: some are almost GP-caliber, and others are Kerstin Frank gold medal-caliber. Yet they all receive the same blanket amount of points. Very flawed.

The comittee did say they will take into account the number of competitions a skater/team does and what kind of competition it is and where is held :rolleyes:
 

zebobes

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It's also interesting how the new Olympic qualifying procedures would have affected the pairs this year.

France, Germany, China, and the United States would all have had a chance to send a pair that did not make the Free Skate to Oberstdorf if they wanted to get another pair to the Olympics, and North Korea, Australia, and the Czech Republic would have automatically qualified their first pair, without having to go to Oberstdorf.

This seems to be a pretty fair way to do it. Germany, China, and the United States would likely have earned their additional spot, France would not, and according to the results for this year, Austria would have gotten the final spot. The one who would lose in this situation would be Israel, which means that they wouldn't have qualified for the team competition, and Australia would in turn have made it instead.

Oh, and there would have been SOOOOO much less drama on FSU about the US only earning one spot.
 

SamuraiK

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The ISU council withdrew their proposal of having a set number of entries for World Championships (42 for singles, 28 for pairs and 35 for dance) :(:(

The reasoning was the even though its better to have a set number of entries so the organizers have an easier time with scheduling and drawing since yesterday they approved a resolution to form a group what will work in upgrading the whole system of qualification and conduction of ISU championships, this proposal its no longer convenient.
 
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barbarafan

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Good, that was yet another poorly-written proposal from the Netherlands that raised more questions than it answered.

My thoughts on the backloading ban:

NO!

Ugh! This is a disgrace! THIS IS A SPORT. SPORT IS ABOUT PUSHING THE LIMITS. Citius, Altius, Fortius, you know? But no, eeeeeeeeeeek, a Russian girl could beat people by cleverly using the scoring system so instead of encouraging other skaters to work on it or find other ways to score points nope let's just take a giant leap BACKWARDS and restrict it. AAAAAAARGH.

:wall::wall::wall: Idiots, idiots, idiots! Scared little cowards who couldn't bear losing so instead of investing to make their skaters better they find it easier to try and lasso the skaters who can already do it. Shortsighted and foolish with no thought to the fact that we are a SPORT.
And you can always take a pee break during the first half of the program as they skate aimlessly around the rink thereby saving yourself from kidney stones and other ailments. Health first
 

Seerek

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The ISU council withdrew their proposal of having a set number of entries for World Championships (42 for singles, 28 for pairs and 35 for dance) :(:(

So did that mean a discipline could have had countries sending skaters that didn't meet the Minimum TES (if the entries of all the countries that did was less than 42 for singles)?
 
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SamuraiK

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So did that mean a discipline could have had countries sending skaters that didn't meet the Minimum TES (if that entries of all the countries that did was less than 42 for singles)?

Yep the original proposal stated that if there were less skaters with the minimuns than the quota , let's say only 40 ladies, the next 2 spots will be given among skaters from nations not already qualified and according to the world standings . I thought this was actually a good idea but oh well.
 

SamuraiK

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The issue of having judges from countries with no participating skaters at ISU championships was a big mess:

*Bosnia Herzegovina who made the proposal stated that development of the judges shouldnt be attached to the development of their skaters and that a door needs to be open so everyone can at leas have the option of participating in the draw.
*Then Lakernik said there was a preliminar resolution improving this rulee change in which it stablished that the draws should include as many ISU members as possibles with or without competitors and that the judges with the highest level of experience should have a permanent representation on the panels but this change will be made through a work group that will report to the Council up until the next congress. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
* The NED went further suggesting that the current rules regarding the judge drawing were slightly discriminatory to the small countries and that the method of implementing work groups for each task is not efficient.
*CAN complained that all judges were already qualified and there was no possible measure of saying which ones have the most experience (really?? :rolleyes:)
*Lakernik said this will never satisfy anyone completely because there are too many members and to few opportunities to participate in the judging panels.
*NZL insisted that counries from the 4CC area are left without much opportunities
* Fabio Bianchetti stated that while there's some democratic value to the proposal the ISU should reward the nations that actually have skaters in the championships with more possibilites to have judges in the panels :scream::scream:
* A lady (dont know which country was she from ) asked then how the judges would find opportunities to gain experitence to what Lakernik replied that the only way is to participate in more competitions and therefore developing the skating in their countries. :slinkaway

In the end the proposal was rejected 34 against vs 23 on favor.
 

Bellanca

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3,301
The funny thing is I actually love the idea of judges from countries with no/few competitors. I mean they come in with the least bias in theory at least.
I agree with you. If a judge does not have one of their own to cloud their vision (if susceptible to that), then it’s a much more palatable arrangement. Of course, they could always bring a fan’s bias to the competition because some do have their favorites. They’re still human and vulnerable, after all.

For our sake and more importantly, the skater, we always hope the judges/tech panel will maintain their integrity, neutrality, and professionalism.
 

Tinami Amori

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20,156
There are things about Yuzu's skating that don't draw me in, which does not mean he isn't a phenomenal skater and an extraordinary competitor. I don't think he has great line and extension, and he still has room to further develop his performance abilities and interpretive qualities (but that's difficult to focus on when trying to up and maintain the quad ante; also it's not worth bothering about when you can rely on judges to consistently hand you nearly perfect scores on PE, CO, and IN; but that's how the OT in this thread got started -- the judges reward consistent quadsters).
And that's everyone's right to see what they see.... And yet the judges year after year, comp after comp, think he is the Greatest (and Orser is a perfect coach for him, given he is an artist himself).
If these are not great lines and extensions, then i don't know what is.... and he is musical, and skates to the beat, and great footwork..... and he has QUADS.... all quads. I hope ISU keeps 1-type of Quad rule... Chen and Hanuy deserve advantage over others for learning ALL quads... not like some other "lazy chickens"..
https://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/defau...blic/2014/02/12/yuzuruhanyu.jpg?itok=cIVwFNpe
https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/yuzuru-hanyu-olympics.jpg
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/w3-skate-a-20150417.jpg
http://static.atimes.com/uploads/20...ure-skating-champion-Yuzuru-Hanyu-960x576.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161127/361766757925f2f4d3a3d213861fa927.jpg
etc..... :D
 

mollymgr

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IMO, the problem lies with the fact that having a passion for the sport and being involved with the respective federation in some capacity, tends to go hand in hand. Judges work on a volunteer basis so there aren't too many people flocking to fill these positions to go to judge these events held at various times of the year. It can depend on availability.
There is always going to be the question of national bias with anyone. Unless you have a computer doing the judging, there is truly no way to remove that. Those who suggested having judges from countries who don't have as many competitors... there aren't too many of those to cover so many events. The federation with the most skaters will most likely have the most number of judges available. It is all relative.
 

barbarafan

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IMO, the problem lies with the fact that having a passion for the sport and being involved with the respective federation in some capacity, tends to go hand in hand. Judges work on a volunteer basis so there aren't too many people flocking to fill these positions to go to judge these events held at various times of the year. It can depend on availability.
There is always going to be the question of national bias with anyone. Unless you have a computer doing the judging, there is truly no way to remove that. Those who suggested having judges from countries who don't have as many competitors... there aren't too many of those to cover so many events. The federation with the most skaters will most likely have the most number of judges available. It is all relative.

ITA and it would not prevent the worse cases of bias judging where the country who wants to cheat instead influence more than one judge from other countries bloc-judging....ie Turkey and others playing with skaters marks
 

Dobre

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If you eliminate judges that have athletes in the competition, then you basically eliminate all the judges from North America and a lot of what little representation there is for Asia in pretty nearly any event that is not Europeans. It creates/exacerbates a different form of bias. Theoretically, I see the appeal. But practically speaking, it's like trading stormy waters for a typhoon, IMO.
 

SamuraiK

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Im surprised about how sloow were the feds to understand the new proposal about the new Olympic qualification.. come on it was not that hard.

Basically now a country not only has to get the number of points to get 2 or 3 spots (28 and 13 respectively) but also they need to have the same numer of skaters in the FS/FD. This is to avoid federations with just one elite skater occupying a spot that will go to a very weak below olympic level skater.

For instance in 2017 worlds we had ESP for men and KAZ for ladies getting 2 spots because of their top skaters placing in the top 10 which meant skaters with really low level (Montoya, Mambekova) participated at the Olympics at the expense of more "worthy" skaters from other countries.

The other change is that the countries affected by this rule (again lets say ESP and KAZ) still had the chance to gain that extra spot if their 2nd skaters qualifies through Nebelhorn.

SWE and NED claimed the rule wasnt very clear so Lakernik and Bianchetti had to explain it not once but twice each. Bianchetti even referred to the situation we had on pairs last season with so many nations getting multiple entries (that were not used like with FRA) and pushing the lower ranked countries out of the direct qualification and therefore ouf the judge drawing.

CAN surprisingly spoke in favour of the rule saying that even though they may be affected as a big nation the new rule guarantees olympic participation from better ranked athletes.

RUS objected the one flaw in the new rule though. THe case when 1 skater finishes 1st or 2nd at the previos worlds winning 3 spots for the next worlds (think Yuna Kim in 2013) but with the new rule it means it can only get 2 for the Olympics and that's if the 2nd skater qualifies through nebelhorn.

RUS also claimed that sometimes the 2nd skater does not make the LP because of injury or withdraw and the council just replied that would be just unfortunate. :D

Then ISR rambled something that didnt make much sense but basically was totally against it (Maybe because ISR would have been the one nation affected by this rule if it was used for Pyeonchang). so Bianchetti had to explain it for a third time and papa Chait finally got it

The AUS complained this new system affects the small countries (Wrong! AUS would have been on the team event if we had this rule at Pyeonchang!), Bianchetti explain it for a 4th!! time :yikes:using Fernandez and his extra spots as a example but RUS made a mess again saying that in that case ESP should send Fernandez to Nebelhorn to get the extra spots and the council had to clarify the skaters that qualified directly can not go.

UZB (Artem Knyazev) related his own story from 2005 Worlds where he missed the direct qualification by one spot so he and his partner did not receive funding to train for the next season (because they were not olympic qualifiers) while with this new rule he would have qualified directly and got the funding and support needed.

Finally Alper Ucar from the athletes comission kinda licked the comitte'ss balls thanking them for such a brilliant proposal that opens the doors for developing countries. :shuffle:

In the end it was accepted by a big difference (52 vs 13)
 

SamuraiK

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If you eliminate judges that have athletes in the competition, then you basically eliminate all the judges from North America and a lot of what little representation there is for Asia in pretty nearly any event that is not Europeans. It creates/exacerbates a different form of bias. Theoretically, I see the appeal. But practically speaking, it's like trading stormy waters for a typhoon, IMO.


The proposal was NOT to eliminate judges with athletes competing or to have only judges from non competing countries but to actually allow the later to be part of the panel draw.

With the current rules someone like just for example lets say Albena Denkova , 2xtime world champion from BUL , so we can assume she would be qualified enough, can not be part of the judge panels because there are no competitive ice dancers from BUL right now.
 
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Seerek

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Montoya wasn't too far behind Stephane Walker at Europeans, so he (or Raya) might have still snuck in to earn that 2nd berth.

On the other hand, Galustyan would have likely earned a berth at Nebelhorn.
 

Japanfan

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There is always going to be the question of national bias with anyone. Unless you have a computer doing the judging, there is truly no way to remove that. Those who suggested having judges from countries who don't have as many competitors... there aren't too many of those to cover so many events. The federation with the most skaters will most likely have the most number of judges available. It is all relative.

Even judges from countries with less competitors and less political clout can be biased. I'm sure that judges from countries with more skaters and political clout seek the support of less powerful countries in various ways.
 

misskarne

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The AUS complained this new system affects the small countries (Wrong! AUS would have been on the team event if we had this rule at Pyeonchang!), Bianchetti explain it for a 4th!! time :yikes:using Fernandez and his extra spots as a example but RUS made a mess again saying that in that case ESP should send Fernandez to Nebelhorn to get the extra spots and the council had to clarify the skaters that qualified directly can not go.

I'm surprised so many of the delegates had trouble following this, I thought Lakernik and Bianchetti explained it quite well - and like you, my first thought was wow Australia would have benefited big time from this rule for 2018. If I've done the calculations right, this rule would have seen us qualify three disciplines at Worlds, instead of just 1.

And then maybe if this was the situation we wouldn't have had so many people whining about US pairs, as Cain/Le Duc's 7th at Nebelhorn would likely have been enough to confirm a second spot. And as this setup means smaller country pairs picking up spots at Worlds as well, it's less inherently unfair than the suggestion some US fans came up with to just allow US to win an extra spot at Nebelhorn anyway.
 

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