ISU Congress

[Tinami Amori]

I do agree that If I were RUS fed I'd do the same. If age were really an issue a formal proposal would have been submitted on the usual deadline. Making it an "urgent" proposal seemed a desperate attempt and RUS ISR played within the rules.

Beside the "politics" of it, i think it is best to be in sports and accomplish maximum until a young person is 18, and then go and live a normal life, a university, a career.... like normal people. Ending up with no education and no profession in the mid 20's is sad to see. Like my grand-father said "all muscles and no brain"..

 

[hanca]

Also , the motion of taking the age proposal out of the agenda came from papa Chait from ISR aka Russian D team federation . The cynic in me agrees with Hersh for once and thinks he acted as surrogate for Russia.

Well, if the age increased, Russia may not be as willing to ‘share’ their skaters (those who don’t have any perspective within Russia but may be good enough to represent other countries).

 

[Bellanca]

What's too bad is the fact that the age requirement for Ladies Seniors to be 15 existed since 1996, and all the BS arguments and motions to increase the age, started ONLY now, 22 years later, when Russian/Eteri's girls start to win and sweep the podiums in Sr and Jr, and to perform ultra-difficult elements.

Had there been ANY discussions about age increase prior to "Eteri's phenomenon", at least 3-4-5 years before, i would think it is "concern for athletes". But it started ONLY with Enteri's girls... and that's a blunt bias, mostly against Russians/Eteri's group and to some extend against Japanese girls.

The "age increase" number, from 15 to 17, is also not random. It specifically targets several Eteri's girls with ultra-difficult elements. Why not 16 or 18? why 17? because it leaves several of her girls out of 2022 Olympics eligibility.

Both countries, who are winning the events, Japan and Russia, voted "no" to the inclusion of the issue in the agenda.

Now i want to know, which jealous nasty looser federation set up Netherlands (which has no dogs in this race) to introduce the age increase into the agenda?

I see why you would feel that way. However, I also think this steady drumbeat of an age increase has a lot to do with fans being upset over the fact that their skater (in most cases the one whose coronation was set in stone and then did not happen) had to settle for silver or bronze - or no medal at all.

I'm glad the ISU has not caved into this yet because it defeats the purpose of competition. No matter a skater’s age focus on defeating them in a competition on the ice, not through the constant demands and efforts to change the rules and level the playing field so this can become a reality.

Even if the age for this sport were raised to 17, for example, eventually, imho, I can easily see the minute that 17yr old skater does defeat a favorite who is 21 or 22 years of age, etc., all hell will still break loose… Or at least a fair amount of grumbling.

It's more about fandom than anything else - wrapped in the argument of not wanting to see little girls (and to be fair little boys) win adult titles.

 

[seabm7]

Does it specifically say the skaters are "giving" their music on CD? In the U.S. for the past several years, skaters have been uploading their music electronically for pretty much all comps, including Nats. I would think the feds/ISU would do the same thing...i'm thinking the CDs are merely the medium the music gets burned on? My guess is the push to keep using CDs has something to do with upgrading (or not) the music playing equipment...feds (esp small ones) probably want to hold off on the expense?

Actually ISU considered it a few years ago. But it turned out violating international copyright law, IIRC.

 

[misskarne]

According to Prins, rejection of the split judging panel, argh...
https://twitter.com/JeroenPrinsNL/status/1004016342532526080

Good, that was yet another poorly-written proposal from the Netherlands that raised more questions than it answered.

My thoughts on the backloading ban:

NO!

Ugh! This is a disgrace! THIS IS A SPORT. SPORT IS ABOUT PUSHING THE LIMITS. Citius, Altius, Fortius, you know? But no, eeeeeeeeeeek, a Russian girl could beat people by cleverly using the scoring system so instead of encouraging other skaters to work on it or find other ways to score points nope let's just take a giant leap BACKWARDS and restrict it. AAAAAAARGH.

Idiots, idiots, idiots! Scared little cowards who couldn't bear losing so instead of investing to make their skaters better they find it easier to try and lasso the skaters who can already do it. Shortsighted and foolish with no thought to the fact that we are a SPORT.

 

[Dobre]

RIP excessive backloading:

 

[Willin]

I see why you would feel that way. However, I also think this steady drumbeat of an age increase has a lot to do with fans being upset over the fact that their skater (in most cases the one who's coronation was set in stone and then did not happen) had to settle for silver or bronze - or no medal at all.

I'm glad the ISU has not caved into this yet because it defeats the purpose of competition. No matter a skater’s age focus on defeating them in a competition on the ice, not through the constant demands and efforts to change the rules and level the playing field so this can become a reality.

Even if the age for this sport were raised to 17, for example, eventually, imho, I can easily see the minute that 17yr old skater does defeat a favorite who is 21 or 22 years of age, etc., all hell will still break loose… Or at least a fair amount of grumbling.

It's more about fandom than anything else - wrapped in the argument of not wanting to see little girls (and to be fair … little boys) win adult titles.

TBH this is part of it for me, but I think the bigger thing is that I'd rather they either fix the bad judging or raise the age limit. Young wonderkids regardless of nationality are favorites of the judges and get unfairly high marks. I am a bit mad when my favorites don't win, but I'm not mad when they're beat by truly superior, complete skaters no matter the age.

Like I said, I'm most annoyed about awarding the youngest, hottest thing with higher PCS than older, better all-around skaters. There's no way Zagitova deserved those PCS with her lack of performance and awful skating skills. It's debatable whether or not Tara and Michelle deserved their high marks in 1996. Nathan deserved the PCS this season, but in 2016-2017 he was overscored in PCS. If they want to give the medals to the best jumper by inflating their PCS, just make it a jumping competition and cut the PCS altogether.

 

[SamuraiK]

So the split judging (different panels for GOE and PCS) debate was really messy:

* The NED started with an introduction repeating the same reasons written on the agenda.
* Lakernik asked when the split judging should start taking into effect and how it would affect small comps (Isu challengers) with less than 13 judges. . NED didnt really know how to answer that .
* The Single/Pair comittee proposed the following amendment: The Split judging would take place from the 19-20 season only for Junior Grand Prix and if it worked a full apllicaction will take effect for the 20-21 season for all ISU events.
*RUS fed were really against it (no suprise there), claiming that it would take too much new equipment and costs for the organizers and that the numbers of officials in the GP will be bigger than actual participants . Also that it would be too problematic for judges with the new +5 GOE rules and it would only hurt the skaters ) . Alla Shekhovtsova then supported this claiming a supposed conflict with another rule and objecting the minimum of 5 judges for each panel (GOE and PCS).
*CAN was on favour arguing that there is already strong statistical evidence of the correlation of the PCS judging with the big tehcnical elements .
*ITA also supported the proposal claiming the +5 GOE does not affect the way the judges already apply the criteria and that starting from now on will only be benefical for a correct judging of the PCS.

In the end the proposal (ammended) was rejected by only 4 votes (It needed 42 and it only got 38 ).

 

[Deleted member 221]

My thoughts on the backloading ban:

I don't think it's a ban. Zagitova can still do all of her jumps in the second half, if she wants. She'll just get a bonus for (presumably) the first one she does in the second half of the short program, and the first three she does in the second half of the free skate. If she thinks a well-balanced program requires seven jumping passes in the second half, she can go for it. The judges can reward her on that criterion if they agree.

 

[Willin]

Idk how the Russian fed thinks it would need more technology. All it would do it use the same technology in a new way.

That being said, I think that the Netherlands could've thought about the smaller competition issue first. I thought there were enough judges at CS events to meet the 5 people on each panel minimum? Maybe not. Either way, it should be considered. Perhaps they should pilot this system at CS events to see how feasible it is and test out various numbers of judges per panel.

 

[Dobre]

So the split judging (different panels for GOE and PCS) debate was really messy:

In the end the proposal (ammended) was rejected by only 4 votes (It needed 42 and it only got 38 ).

That's not a bad sign, though, is it? I mean, make a stronger argument logistically and four votes is not that far off. If 38 people thought it was doable and worth the effort, it does seem like something we may see come around the block again.

 

[Orm Irian]

I don't think it's a ban. Zagitova can still do all of her jumps in the second half, if she wants. She'll just get a bonus for (presumably) the first one she does in the second half of the short program, and the first three she does in the second half of the free skate. If she thinks a well-balanced program requires seven jumping passes in the second half, she can go for it. The judges can reward her on that criterion if they agree.

I think it's the final jumping pass in the second half that will accrue the bonus for the SP, and the final three for the FS, but otherwise, yes, any skater who wants to can absolutely keep backloading most/all of their jumps to their little heart's content, they just won't get automatic TES points for it. The judges will have to assess whether the jump distribution is meaningful and artistically justifiable within the context of the program - if it is, it gets the skater extra marks in PCS, and if it isn't, they get fewer. So there's still a reward for those who take the risk and make it work, it's just that the risk is bigger and the reward is harder to obtain.

 

[misskarne]

* The NED started with an introduction repeating the same reasons written on the agenda.
* Lakernik asked when the split judging should start taking into effect and how it would affect small comps (Isu challengers) with less than 13 judges. . NED didnt really know how to answer that .

THANK YOU LAKERNIK! This was one of the major problems that I saw with yet another ill-thought out proposal from Netherlands. Primarily: which competitions it should apply to, and if it is meant to apply to all, what about the smaller competitions? Will it then be forced to be applied at the national level? What about club comps that can barely scrape together one judging panel under the current system? If it is to only apply at some comps, then what about the SB list? How do they propose comparing split-panel scores to full-panel scores?

The Netherlands delegate appeared on GS to promote their abomination of an age limit proposal, but disappeared very quickly when I started asking questions like that.

 

[Dr.Siouxs]

I never really understood the backload bonus being prescribed for only jumps. Theoretically, isn't any technical element more difficult after the 2nd half?

 

[misskarne]

I never really understood the backload bonus being prescribed for only jumps. Theoretically, isn't any technical element more difficult after the 2nd half?

Yes. I have always thought it should apply to everything.

 

[Marco]

When will the Zagitova Rule take effect? In the upcoming season? I wonder how this would affect skaters who already had their programs made.

Alas, I thought the split judging item made so much sense, too bad it wasn't better put together / argued. 5 judges for GOEs and 5 judges for PCS isn't all that different from 9 judges for both. I can even live with a 5 judges for GOEs and 3 judges for PCS if it is insisted that the additional personnel required is a dealbreaker.

 

[caseyedwards]

But only jumps are considered “highlights” “bonus for highlight distribution”

 

[misskarne]

Alas, I thought the split judging item made so much sense, too bad it wasn't better put together / argued. 5 judges for GOEs and 5 judges for PCS isn't all that different from 9 judges for both. I can even live with a 5 judges for GOEs and 3 judges for PCS if it is insisted that the additional personnel required is a dealbreaker.

Which is fine - at large ISU events or large National events where 10 judges can be easily put together.

But what about a club competition that can barely scrape up five judges? Or three? I've seen plenty of those.

 

[SamuraiK]

The restriction on backloading went surprisingly quite smoothly. No one made an objection on it. Not even RUS.

John Coughlin from the athlete's comission made a short but solid argument that the bonus was intended for rewarding good distribution and to avoid the frontloading (specially in the SP) and that now because the skaters are trying to maximise points as much as possible we have the opposite effect of backloading that hurts the balance of the programs that was firstly intended. (I fully agree with him).

JPN proposal barely beat CAN alternative (2 jumps on SP and 4 on LP) by just 3 votes. Then it was accepted by 46 (of 42 needed).

The "only one type of quad " proposal was withdrawn by JPN citing the big debate that happened yesterday made them realised it was too early to be applied .

 

[SamuraiK]

When will the Zagitova Rule take effect? In the upcoming season? I wonder how this would affect skaters who already had their programs made.

Alas, I thought the split judging item made so much sense, too bad it wasn't better put together / argued. 5 judges for GOEs and 5 judges for PCS isn't all that different from 9 judges for both. I can even live with a 5 judges for GOEs and 3 judges for PCS if it is insisted that the additional personnel required is a dealbreaker.

It will take effect inmmediately this season. As for the skaters with programas already made, They can keep them, They will just not get all the excessive bonus.

The split panel proposal was only for ISU events (JGP, GP, Challenger and Championships) so it wouldn't affect the SB list but the issue with 5 judges on each panel really affects the challenger series where sometimes there's only 7 or even less . Lakernik also stated that it will be worse for Dance because you cant use the same judge from other categories like with singles and pairs.

 

[Marco]

But isn't it the same?

Where the panel has 9 judges, the split panels can have 5/5 or 5/3.

Where the panel has 7 judges, the split panels can have 5/3 or 3/3.

etc etc.

Perhaps they could set an exception for when there are less than 5 judges in total, they can combine the panels.

[numbers totally arbitrary]

 

[Bellanca]

As desirable as it might be, the sport will never be able to completely rid itself of bad, biased and underhanded judges or judging. An age increase won't do squat to eliminate favoritism, and not all judges get caught up and swept away with the latest phenom.

 

[SamuraiK]

But isn't it the same?

Where the panel has 9 judges, the split panels can have 5/5 or 5/3.

Where the panel has 7 judges, the split panels can have 5/3 or 3/3.

etc etc.

Perhaps they could set an exception for when there are less than 5 judges in total, they can combine the panels.

[numbers totally arbitrary]

After Shekhovtsova objected the mandatory minimun of 5/5 NED actually conceded and said it could be ammended to just an equal number on each panel but then both technical comittess (Single/Pairs and Dance) objected saying that it would be too risky having such a low number and that the rule should be the same for all ISU events. That's where it went downhill IMO.

 

[MAXSwagg]

TBH this is part of it for me, but I think the bigger thing is that I'd rather they either fix the bad judging or raise the age limit. Young wonderkids regardless of nationality are favorites of the judges and get unfairly high marks. I am a bit mad when my favorites don't win, but I'm not mad when they're beat by truly superior, complete skaters no matter the age.

Like I said, I'm most annoyed about awarding the youngest, hottest thing with higher PCS than older, better all-around skaters. There's no way Zagitova deserved those PCS with her lack of performance and awful skating skills. It's debatable whether or not Tara and Michelle deserved their high marks in 1996. Nathan deserved the PCS this season, but in 2016-2017 he was overscored in PCS. If they want to give the medals to the best jumper by inflating their PCS, just make it a jumping competition and cut the PCS altogether.

Nathan did not deserve anywhere near 91 PCS this season, components that probably would've beaten even someone like Jason Brown. That is outrageous.

 

[Marco]

After Shekhovtsova objected the mandatory minimun of 5/5 NED actually conceded and said it could be ammended to just an equal number on each panel but then both technical comittess (Single/Pairs and Dance) objected saying that it would be too risky having such a low number and that the rule should be the same for all ISU events. That's where it went downhill IMO.

Thanks for the tidbits. They tested it out a couple of years ago at Nebelhorn (?) - thought they would have been more prepared for this proposal.

 

[misskarne]

After Shekhovtsova objected the mandatory minimun of 5/5 NED actually conceded and said it could be ammended to just an equal number on each panel but then both technical comittess (Single/Pairs and Dance) objected saying that it would be too risky having such a low number and that the rule should be the same for all ISU events. That's where it went downhill IMO.

Both Shekhovtsova and the technical committee are right, for different reasons. As much as it's cool to hate on Shekhovstova she and Lakernik so far appear to be the ones thinking about the smaller competitions, the smaller B events, and what might happen if/when this is actually forced down to lower levels. The technical committee has a point that if the numbers are too low, you end up in a ridiculous situation.

Did anybody actually think about this before proposing it?

Nathan did not deserve anywhere near 91 PCS this season, components that probably would've beaten even someone like Jason Brown. That is outrageous.

I hate being reminded that Nathan Chen's PCS PB is higher than Jason's. That's a true abomination of scoring.

 

[Seerek]

They need "More Study" of increasing the men's components multiplier from 1.0/2.0 to 1.2/2.4, because they believe the change may be too significant at lower levels (juniors on down).

 

[aftershocks]

I hate being reminded that Nathan Chen's PCS PB is higher than Jason's. That's a true abomination of scoring.

Eh, because of the jaw-dropping beauty of their quads when they are in the zone, Hanyu and Javi were given PCS out the wazoo. It's the going thing, as we all know. 'Have boffo quads and political rep, will travel to the podium with inflated PCS.' Of course Hanyu and Javi improved aesthetically under Orser (Javi needed more help than Hanyu). But with quads as their advantageous weapons, they were always given huge marks on PCS, as if they didn't have areas where they needed to continue improving performance-wise. Hanyu's smooth ability to flow over the ice and his precocious jumping skills do not make him the greatest artist who ever graced the ice.

Nathan is still developing aesthetically, but even then he's head and shoulders in that aspect of his skating over Boyang Jin who is slowly improving his performance abilities but still does not understand music as well as Nathan. The other thing that continues to be overlooked is that Nathan Chen has wonderful performance skills and a great feel for the music. It has become such a meme for fans who don't like Nathan because he rivals their faves, to look down on his still growing artistic talents. And obviously Nathan has focused more on developing his technical side since he entered the senior ranks, because that's what the sport rewards first and foremost. Your PCS automatically increase when you have boffo quad abilities. The sport decided a long time ago to put the cart before the horse re technical vs all-around skills development. It is what it is. And obviously, that's why a superbly gifted, all-around skater such as Jason Brown has difficulty reaching the Worlds podium vs quadsters who do not possess his level of attention to detail in terms of line, spin positions, creativity, transitions, and interpretive qualities.

While Nathan may not yet possess the same attention to aesthetic detail that Jason has in his back pocket, Nathan is still no slouch aesthetically. Nathan has areas he needs to continue refining and polishing, but he is talented artistically. He has a unique style and captivating presence on the ice, with huge potential for remarkable growth in all aspects of his skating.

 

[SmallFairy]

I really like Nathan, and his SP this season was fab, but his FS both this season and last season was not much else than skating back and forth jumping. I hate that the lovely Mao's last dancer-music was wasted with no choreo. And yes, he so has it in him, that's why it bothers me even more. Hanyu manages to seamlessly weave those quads (an everything else) into the program, that it what makes him stand out so much to me. Hope Nathan can get there too, even if his style is more "dynamic". Lack of better word...

My point is that PCS needs to be scored accurately, and we all agree, but it's not happening, and if the judges don't bother, it never will.

 

[SmallFairy]

And @aftershocks you never fail to remind this board that you dislike Hanyu, whatever thread you're posting in, but IIRC the general consensus here is not that "he's the greatest artist ever graced the ice", even if he's really good, so those endless sarcastically sentences are getting a bit tiresome. And no, I'm not the crazy Hanyu uber. I just happen to enjoy good old-fashion quality skating, like edge work and a 3axel from bracket entrance.

Sorry, thread drift! I'm waiting for more tights-news!