IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[Tinami Amori]

(We are all going to get booted out of this thread to PI.)

.. kinda sounds like "i know i am on a diet, but will just eat one last cake"?....

I guess the other CAS appeal didn't go well for the Russians, the verdict on those cases are due on Tuesday or Thursday.

I believe (from what is written at this time) that they (S/B and team) decided not to apply to CAS court at all, for a reason which is most likely has to do with how booked up the CAS court is right now with other 39 athletes' cases already in process + few other relevant issues. The other court (FSCS) is probably less booked up and probably (in their estimate) can process their case quicker.

CAS court (or its fairness, at this point) is not a concern: The Russian side who has open cases with CAS court, actually reported that proceedings and hearings went well and they were given a fair chance to present their cases, and the questions from the panel were to the point and reasonable.
https://www.championat.com/other/ne...ichie-ot-mok-nashi-dovody-byli-uslyshany.html

I read that the Russian Olympic committee gave the IOC a long list of potential Olympic team members back in summer 2017. It contained hundreds of names (for example, Lipnitskaya was on it). So, the IOC had months to screen each athlete. Sure, the final team was picked only recently, but the IOC knew the candidates already. No "last minute" excuse.

- It was a long messy list of 600 to 700+, athletes, coaches, officials (don't remember now exact number)
- then it got reduced to 500 by the Russian side
- then IOC gave preliminary approval to 369 (excluding 111 athletes and coaches/officials, and Bukin, Stolbova, Ahn, etc, are part of the "excluded" list).
- of that list of approved/invited, now there remains 169 athletes and 171 official/coach = 340 total.
- now the "quiet fuss" is "what did Russian side do with 29 other "approved people".... (and some suspect "internal games" or dumb errors).

 

[skatingguy]

I read that the Russian Olympic committee gave the IOC a long list of potential Olympic team members back in summer 2017. It contained hundreds of names (for example, Lipnitskaya was on it). So, the IOC had months to screen each athlete. Sure, the final team was picked only recently, but the IOC knew the candidates already. No "last minute" excuse.

That’s a very bad excuse. The names could have been submitted a long time ago - before Russian nationals. If you submitted the top five pairs and dancers, you couldn’t possibly go wrong. The only two disciplines that couldn’t be forecasted for certain were ladies and men, and they could have been submitted later.

It's pretty clear that the IOC was in no hurry to do anything, I think mostly cause they didn't want to do anything. That being said there were several issues that were being addressed during the fall which may have impacted the decisions. There was the recovery, and reconstruction at the end of October of the spreadsheet of athletes involved in the doping scheme. This spreadsheet apparently contains the names of thousands of athletes. Then there was WADA's report on the compliance of Russia, with outstanding issues of admittance of guilt (never going to happen), and, more importantly, access to the RUSADA lab in Moscow. Finally, there was the work of the Oswald Commission. Every week, or few days from the beginning of November until the announcement of the decision of the IOC Executive Board on Dec. 5, there were decisions on specific Russian athletes, many of them medals winners, stripping them of their results in Sochi. All of these events kind of the forced hand of the IOC into making some decision, plus there was possibly of a deal with Russian Olympic Committee that determined this whole process, and who knows when that was finalized.

 

[Tinami Amori]

All of these events kind of the forced hand of the IOC into making some decision, plus there was possibly of a deal with Russian Olympic Committee that determined this whole process, and who knows when that was finalized.

IOC was/is in a difficult position, and their side needs to be considered as well. The situation is unprecedented, IOC had to fulfill obligations to clean athletes, to penalize those who dope and all entities involved, make a strong statement on the issue, and at the same time let clean ones attend, and not completely exclude Russia for a number of practical reasons.

There are people, entities, media who are using this situation and making it extreme, on both ends, for personal reasons not related to “clean sport”, and some IOC’s decisions can be improved and some are unnecessary and/or ineffective. But again, this is unprecedented, and no guidelines to follow. My only objection is lack of explanation for not inviting athletes with no doping history. Other than that, IOC is trying very hard to solve this multi-level situation.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

.. kinda sounds like "i know i am on a diet, but will just eat one last cake"?....


I believe (from what is written at this time) that they (S/B and team) decided not to apply to CAS court at all, for a reason which is most likely has to do with how booked up the CAS court is right now with other 39 athletes' cases already in process + few other relevant issues. The other court (FSCS) is probably less booked up and probably (in their estimate) can process their case quicker.

CAS court (or its fairness, at this point) is not a concern: The Russian side who has open cases with CAS court, actually reported that proceedings and hearings went well and they were given a fair chance to present their cases, and the questions from the panel were to the point and reasonable.
https://www.championat.com/other/ne...ichie-ot-mok-nashi-dovody-byli-uslyshany.html


- It was a long messy list of 600 to 700+, athletes, coaches, officials (don't remember now exact number)
- then it got reduced to 500 by the Russian side
- then IOC gave preliminary approval to 369 (excluding 111 athletes and coaches/officials, and Bukin, Stolbova, Ahn, etc, are part of the "excluded" list).
- of that list of approved/invited, now there remains 169 athletes and 171 official/coach = 340 total.
- now the "quiet fuss" is "what did Russian side do with 29 other "approved people".... (and some suspect "internal games" or dumb errors).

Not necessarily dumb move or internal games, it is possible that there where more Russians in the field than quota allowed. Remember Klimov and Stepanova was cleared they can’t go. If Russians submitted names like A/R and Z/G, then Russians must have submitted reserves in other events and sports as well, like Konstantinova and Samarin. So they can’t go now, because they have filled the available quota places already. Add in other sports, we get why there are 29 athletes sitting home.

 

[allezfred]

Btw, up-thread it was mentioned several times "why was this done at the last minute" or "why wasn't this done in the summer." I wondered myself but realized recently that it's because most sports don't pick their Olympic Team until the last minute. So the IOC didn't know which athletes would be put forth until rather late in the process. I'm not sure what could be done about that.

Typically each Olympic committee will submit a long list of potential athletes and officials months in advance. There is no way that Stolbova and Bukin would not have been on that long list.

 

[Kateri]

Not to clog an already huge thread with my useless opinion, but for the record, this extremely sucks and I am sad.

 

[aftershocks]

... Re WADA and its role: we had an interesting conversation at dinner tonight about how WADA will handle the soon to be "genetic/DNA alterations", "sports gene hunting in specific groups" and "designer babies".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wtWRnZUtRQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu7lF575t74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAhjPd4uNFY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6IFWBH6_fs

Interesting, but what role do you expect WADA to play in all of this, when they already can't handle the current doping controversies? Anyway in the latter video you linked, this statement is a huge caution: "Athletes who are willing to [gene edit] gene dope could be putting their lives at risk," as the side-effects range from "triggering cardiac arrest to cancer."

This CRISPR revolution sounds pretty crispy, but far from done yet, let alone our understanding of its full implications!
http://www.newsweek.com/worlds-first-baby-born-three-biological-parents-503438
http://gh.bmj.com/content/2/3/e000396

Isolating the gene factor in children that can account for how good they may be in certain sports is interesting as well, but as the reports noted, there are too many different factors involved outside of isolating the gene factor. Therefore parents should not use the results to decide which sports to guide their children into. There's no way to test for desire, motivation, the long term effects of training, etc., in attempting to determine how well children might perform in certain sports as they mature.

 

[Lovemyvike]

Not to clog an already huge thread with my useless opinion, but for the record, this extremely sucks and I am sad.

Those are exactly my thoughts too. It's been a pretty terrible week. Dad in the hospital, very sick kitty and this. Just really sad

 

[MacMadame]

I read that the Russian Olympic committee gave the IOC a long list of potential Olympic team members back in summer 2017. It contained hundreds of names (for example, Lipnitskaya was on it). So, the IOC had months to screen each athlete. Sure, the final team was picked only recently, but the IOC knew the candidates already. No "last minute" excuse.

Is it really realistic for them to screen that many athletes? If Lip was on it, it must have included others who weren't really even competing.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Is it really realistic for them to screen that many athletes? If Lip was on it, it must have included others who weren't really even competing.

Yes, it is ...it is not like IOC members has burned too much of their brain cells. If their names appear on any of the list, they got banned.

 

[Tak]

The IOC said that omission from the list doesn't necessarily mean drug use - I think that's right? Does anyone know - if not for banned substances, what else would get an athlete banned - or "uninvited" - to the Olympics?

 

[caseyedwards]

IOC was/is in a difficult position, and their side needs to be considered as well. The situation is unprecedented, IOC had to fulfill obligations to clean athletes, to penalize those who dope and all entities involved, make a strong statement on the issue, and at the same time let clean ones attend, and not completely exclude Russia for a number of practical reasons.

There are people, entities, media who are using this situation and making it extreme, on both ends, for personal reasons not related to “clean sport”, and some IOC’s decisions can be improved and some are unnecessary and/or ineffective. But again, this is unprecedented, and no guidelines to follow. My only objection is lack of explanation for not inviting athletes with no doping history. Other than that, IOC is trying very hard to solve this multi-level situation.

It’s not unprecedented! It’s just russia! Ioc allowed Germany to fully integrate all athletes from east Germany knowing they were all doped! It was fine.

The IOC said that omission from the list doesn't necessarily mean drug use - I think that's right? Does anyone know - if not for banned substances, what else would get an athlete banned - or "uninvited" - to the Olympics?

Missing tests
Anonymous tip that athlete doped
Suspicious coach
Suspicious teammate
Being in an email sent by rodchenkov

Russian Paralympic Committee still banned. Now they’re going to allow neutrals for Pyeongchang. Won’t change until putin admits everything mcclaren and rodchenkov says is true.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/sports/paralympics-russia-doping.amp.html

 

[RomyNL]

The IOC said that omission from the list doesn't necessarily mean drug use - I think that's right? Does anyone know - if not for banned substances, what else would get an athlete banned - or "uninvited" - to the Olympics?

Perhaps they didn't like a person's haircut or a bad breath last time they spoke to a person... who knows... the whole world has become very Kafka-esque since a couple of years, this whole drama is just a logical step in it. It's better to accept it or just pretend these Games never happened... I will be catching up on Netflix tv-shows

 

[Bellanca]

Perhaps they didn't like a person's haircut or a bad breath last time they spoke to a person...

No, that’s not it. The cold, hard truth is the athletes who will be staying home, know why.

 

[RoseRed]

The IOC said that omission from the list doesn't necessarily mean drug use - I think that's right? Does anyone know - if not for banned substances, what else would get an athlete banned - or "uninvited" - to the Olympics?

Perhaps they didn't like a person's haircut or a bad breath last time they spoke to a person... who knows... the whole world has become very Kafka-esque since a couple of years, this whole drama is just a logical step in it. It's better to accept it or just pretend these Games never happened... I will be catching up on Netflix tv-shows

That's not really fair. The IOC absolutely hasn't been as transparent as they should have been, but they did actually publish the list of criteria/information they were considering: https://www.olympic.org/news/olympi...information-used-as-part-of-its-deliberations

It included stuff like stuff in the Laboratory Information Management System (LIMS) database for the Moscow anti-doping centre. When they say it doesn't necessarily mean an athlete was doping, they don't mean that not inviting athletes for completely unrelated reasons. All the information considered had to do with doping, but an athlete who might not actually have doped may not be invited because there was something suspicious in the information, which could be enough since the athletes as being held to a higher standard do to the extent of the doping program.

 

[aftershocks]

Those are exactly my thoughts too. It's been a pretty terrible week. Dad in the hospital, very sick kitty and this. Just really sad

Sorry to hear about your Dad and your kitty being sick. Sending healing thoughts and hugs.

 

[barbarafan]

No, that’s not it. The cold, hard truth is the athletes who will be staying home, know why.

What it really means is there is an agreement that they won't be banned for what they did but under no circumstance will they be allowed to participate at this Olympics..Either they know exactly what it is or their handlers do.

 

[LilJen]

No, that’s not it. The cold, hard truth is the athletes who will be staying home, know why.

Not really. Bukin (at least) has stated he has no idea why he'd be excluded.

 

[rfisher]

Not really. Bukin (at least) has stated he has no idea why he'd be excluded.

Now, now @LilJen, you know some posters know more than the athletes do. They have all sorts of information that the rest of us don't have. Of course, they have a way of blurring their opinions with facts, but piffle on facts.

 

[LilJen]

(I do so enjoy the word 'piffle,' @rfisher.) I guess I am not in on the Sekret Sources. . . perhaps there are, in fact, credible reports that Bukin and Stolbova regularly went to the doping parlor together, while having manicures, don't you know.

 

[aftershocks]

What's true, what's a lie, and what's complete innocence (or feigned ignorance) in this current day and age we are living in, especially where 'faux' news, tv soundbites, pr b**lsh*t, brainwashing, white-washing, fooling oneself, and lying through one's teeth while smiling and winking are the norm?

 

[Tinami Amori]

Interesting, but what role do you expect WADA to play in all of this, when they already can't handle the current doping controversies? Anyway in the latter video you linked, this statement is a huge caution: "Athletes who are willing to [gene edit] gene dope could be putting their lives at risk," as the side-effects range from "triggering cardiac arrest to cancer."

This CRISPR revolution sounds pretty crispy, but far from done yet, let alone our understanding of its full implications!
http://www.newsweek.com/worlds-first-baby-born-three-biological-parents-503438
http://gh.bmj.com/content/2/3/e000396

Isolating the gene factor in children that can account for how good they may be in certain sports is interesting as well, but as the reports noted, there are too many different factors involved outside of isolating the gene factor. Therefore parents should not use the results to decide which sports to guide their children into. There's no way to test for desire, motivation, the long term effects of training, etc., in attempting to determine how well children might perform in certain sports as they mature.

i am very interested to discuss this subject. let me reply later, as it is monday and a load of work.. i have an interesting case showing a prominent gold-medal athlete (a skier fr Finland) born with a certain significant abnormality which disproportionately benefits his athletic performance, and can only be matched by others if they take certain banned substance. If WADA's role is to assure "leveled playing field", then this can be an interesting discussion. Same situation if parents decide to "breed" children with help of genes manipulations. Will WADA require proof that an athlete was "conceived through natural vs. artificial insemination".. etc..
====

On another note. Interesting situation with Russian Invitation List: Now the Russian side wants to know, why an athlete, recently stripped of medals Sochi 2014 and banned for life not just from Olympics but sport itself, has received an invitation and accreditation as a "coach" on the trainers' list for the Olympics, given that Russia did not apply for him on any lists. There are Russian articles, and so far only 1 in English (that i found).
http://www.nydailynews.com/newswire...te-accredited-olympic-coach-article-1.3785866

 

[aftershocks]

i am very interested to discuss this subject. let me reply later, as it is monday and a load of work.. i have an interesting case showing a prominent gold-medal athlete (a skier fr Finland) born with a certain significant abnormality which disproportionately benefits his athletic performance, and can only be matched by others if they take certain banned substance. If WADA's role is to assure "leveled playing field", then this can be an interesting discussion. Same situation if parents decide to "breed" children with help of genes manipulations. Will WADA require proof that an athlete was "conceived through natural vs. artificial insemination".. etc..

Interesting to discuss sure. But it seems to me that WADA and IOC have enough on their plate at the moment to occupy them beyond even beginning to ponder the latter scenario which is very far off (scientists are talking about it, but developing designer children is more about fighting against life-threatening inheritable diseases at this stage). It's a mind-blowing concept, but they are far away from actually meddling with genes for the heck of it (i.e., people wishing for blue-eyed children, or for geniuses, or for athletic phenoms). They have to proceed with a lot of caution for fear of causing irreversible and unwanted side-effects, and/or long-term and far-reaching societal dysfunctions.

The situation with the skier from Finland will require more public discussion, analysis and understanding than just IOC and WADA consulting with each other behind closed doors, to come to grips with.

 

[Bellanca]

Oh dear, the fans are restless... Or in denial...

 

[misskarne]

No, that’s not it. The cold, hard truth is the athletes who will be staying home, know why.

Except they don't, as evidenced by Bukin's letter. The IOC hasn't told them why.

 

[skatingguy]

Except they don't, as evidenced by Bukin's letter. The IOC hasn't told them why.

The letter was released before the IOC finalized the OAR entries on Saturday, so maybe he's received information since then. Then there's also the possibility that he knows why, and has all along.

 

[caseyedwards]

Obviously Bukin would know know if he swished liquids in his mouth a certain way, texted his doping control form number to the ministry, etc.
Unless::
Someone replaced his mouthwash with duchess cocktail
Someone stole his doping control forms and texted number to ministry
Scheduled him for unnecessary urine samples

 

[lala]

The letter was released before the IOC finalized the OAR entries on Saturday, so maybe he's received information since then. Then there's also the possibility that he knows why, and has all along.

Oh.. no... sorry, but I'm tired of this..

 

[barbarafan]

Obviously Bukin would know know if he swished liquids in his mouth a certain way, texted his doping control form number to the ministry, etc.
Unless::
Someone replaced his mouthwash with duchess cocktail
Someone stole his doping control forms and texted number to ministry
Scheduled him for unnecessary urine samples

Very cute....It wasn't at Sochi as he was not there...his parents could have put anything in a glass at the breakfast table and he would have glugged it down without thinking...wouldn't you ? In the olden days when I was always doing gymnastics before school in the morning as I existed the washroom ready to run out the door she would be standing in the hall with a glass of orange juice with an egg and some sugar beaten up in it and I wasn't allowed to leave the house without drinking it because I would not stop for breakfast. It could have had rat entrails in it for all I know....but I wanted to rush to do gymnastics so I drank it.
So maybe he does have no idea but someone around him does.

Or maybe he wore tights half over his skates....I wouldn't invite anyone who did that.

 

[skatingguy]

Oh.. no... sorry, but I'm tired of this..

Well, I can certainly understand that. My post was hyperbole, because I'm tired of the speculation and conjecture.