MR-FAN
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This is really, really beyond depressing and infuriating.
IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics
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Anyasnake
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Last time a top Russian pair team split and found new partners, it did not go very well, remember ? (both were even considered as one of the strongest individuals in Ice Dance). At least S/B seem to have a good relationship - just like the top dance teams in the world. You have to understand and respect each other if you want to skate well. This is more than just a "Let's find a new partner".
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BlueRidge
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At the moment nothing is being presented about this situation affecting Bukin's future career. One could infer that if somehow he isn't "clean" for this Olys then he isn't for future ones, but that's not necessarily the case is it? At some point, wouldn't there have to be some kind of due process? He isn't receiving any now because of the extraodinary circumstances which he's been caught up in but that seems to be due to the expediency needed because the Olys is so near.
But the next Olys is four years away, and there's no indication that anything about this decision will impact any other competitions. Who would determine that? The ISU?
But the next Olys is four years away, and there's no indication that anything about this decision will impact any other competitions. Who would determine that? The ISU?
Anyasnake
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The ISU has been awfully silent actually. Are they even involved in that situation ?
BlueRidge
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They aren't involved in the Oly stuff. I mention them because I wonder if they decide who can compete in ISU events and would determine if any of this impacts Bukin in competitions going forward, besides the Olys.
Anyasnake
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The ISU should be informed if there is anything that could prevent them to compete at Worlds though. So far nothing but we might have to wait until next week.
So the IOC isn't going to provide any info on why the athletes weren't invited, which criteria they didn't meet? It sounds like Stolbova and those close to her weren't surprised but Bukin sounds totally blindsided. He deserves at least an explanation. (Of course, he could have been provided with one that hasn't been made public.)
BlueRidge
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except Bukin and Stolbova weren't actually banned, they just weren't invited. From the IOC's list of things it seems as if athletes could be left out of being invited for things that would not normally of themselves cause the athletes to be sanctioned from competitions.
My question is that this seems like a special case situation, so does it necessarily lead to any future sanctions? I see no process in place for that.
My question is that this seems like a special case situation, so does it necessarily lead to any future sanctions? I see no process in place for that.
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I dont know of a process either. This situation is unique with the Olys so close, and the current solution seems to be equal parts bureaucratic thinking and political expediency. Maybe with more time, a more transparent process will be developed.
BlueRidge
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If there is something for which Stolbova or Bukin should be considered to be sanctioned, are there not processes already in place (outside of this situation with the immediate Olympics)? Why should there be a need for a new process?
My suspicion is that whatever has caused Bukin and likely Stolbova as well to not be included for invitation to the Olys doesn't rise to the normal level of cause for sanction. If it does, why does the IOC not just refer it to the usual processes?
My suspicion is that whatever has caused Bukin and likely Stolbova as well to not be included for invitation to the Olys doesn't rise to the normal level of cause for sanction. If it does, why does the IOC not just refer it to the usual processes?
Tinami Amori
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Different conditions, different history.
President Trump, as most previous US Presidents, excluding times of war, will be evaluated primarily on the Economy (and Security). Given 2017 statistics of falling unemployment rate with its historic low in African-american and Hispanic-american communities, and numbers showing economic growth rate of 2.6% coming close to predicted 3%, and his active efforts to protect US markets and interests abroad, even a major scandal in US Sports including Olympics (if hypothetically happened) would not be a major factor in the elections with majority of average Americans. The phrase "it's the economy, stupid" is quite correct for USA.
Russia/President Putin is a different situation; patriotism and sports (along with many other forms of national display) play a different role historically, practically, and are effectively used for many decades during various difficult, at times critical, economic periods. For the last 100 years USSR/Russia was constantly ravaged by Revolutions, Wars, and international crisis which took human lives, resulted in food shortages, and other economic problems. As a result people are much more tolerant and resilient to crisis and almost instinctively allocate greater significance to patriotism when attacked by foreign powers.
Israel’s situation is also different from Russia and USA. Israel is constantly under attack and under siege. If and when, Netanyahu will not have to deal with a constant threat of terrorism, total state annihilation, sanctions against Israel, and NGOs’ subversive activities, he without a doubt, would devote his efforts to internal affairs and improvement of economic and social conditions inside Israel, thus the Israeli electorate would evaluate his actions and policies by different measures.
(But you're right, this is PI argument)
barbarafan
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They cannot come out and say exactly why for sure without the lid coming off. To say they have proof of Stolbova doping would automatically mean Russia loses the team gold plus her silver in pairs and everyone else moves up. So they have to treat it as fluff. And there is no banning on fluff.
Due to constant injuries I would think it is S/K's last season anyways. Perhaps someone has suggested to them that this is a good idea. A shame because they skate so beautifully but it doesn't look like all their injuries are healing. Hopefully they pass on their technique to younger competitors.
As far as Bukin goes...Whatever they have on him is never going to come out so I doubt there will be any further sanctions. I am sure if he was given illegal substances he hasn't a clue ..he was a kid and ate and drank whatever he was given by trusted sources. He was at a test event (not testing skating but to see if the doping procedure was running smooth)prior to Sochi and did not compete at Sochi.
caseyedwards
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This isn’t voluntary ! I mean why would anyone stay with Bukin? Why does stepanova want a banned partner?
No one should assume anyone banned from Pyeongchang should be invited back for beijing
Has ioc shown any leniency in this situation?
Vagabond
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Is it definite that there won't be any explanations? Or is that an assumption based on the lack of an explanation accompanying the list of invitees?
Anyasnake
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Who told you that she could ever make it to the Olympics without her partner ? They have been together for so long, so what do you do ? Win Euros and Worlds medals (which they are very much able to do) or risk it all and end up not even making the national team ?
But we shoud not be having this conversation, let's wait until things are clearer.
Tinami Amori
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oh, caseyedwards, have you heard of "a boy who cried “wolf”?"… 
Bukin, Stolbova, few other athletes are not banned. They are not on the invite list and the IOC commission explained that it does not mean the athletes are accused of doping, which means there could be a number of issues relevant to stated IOC criteria for evaluation, but not necessarily doping. Had Stolbova been accused of doping, she and Klimov, and the whole Russian Team Event would have been stripped of Sochi medal, and officially suspended. Bukin’s situation is even less clear, but not doping related, as he and Stepanova would have been suspended as well.Whether or not there is still time to clear them, and/or receive clarification before Feb. 9th, they are not excluded because of doping, since such offense would bring much harsher punishment and publicity.
Whatever your motivations are to constantly provide misleading negative information about the Russian situations (trolling, personal wishes of harm and dislike for Russia, stupidity and misinterpretation of facts, etc.) you are MISINFORMING people by giving “wrong twists” to circumstances (that were or still in-question) as “facts”.
- You yelled “Russia will be banned from Olympics” while it was already know “through the grape-wine”, by spring/summer 2017, that Russians will be at the Olympics, but with certain restrictions, one way or another.
- You stated that members of IOC Review Commission hate Russians and will use their own subjective discretion which ones to exclude, using perhaps such criteria as “how active an athlete is in condemning doping on Facebook”. The fact is that IOC had concrete specific criteria, ALL related to doping and testing procedures and results, which they posted in great detail.
- You sounded very sure few days ago that last week’s list of 169 invited athletes is to undergo 2nd review panel, and “some top athletes maybe excluded”. As you see today, it is not so.
- … and there is more of your “ill wishes presented as facts” but I don’t have time to list them..
The facts are that 169 athletes from Russia, are going to the Olympics. Among them are all top medal contenders in Figure Skating, and the total number invited is almost exact as Vancouver’s list of 170 athletes.
Please don’t hang yourself over your inability to see Russia hurt as much as you wished it. If you want to “hurt Russia”, you need to quite chats, and get seriously involved in int’l politics and that will takes years of education and professional development. Wishing does not make things happen…
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BlueRidge
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The lid would come off? Haven't many athletes been stripped of medals they won at Sochi? Why wasn't Stolbova if she was guilty? Why would they put on a lid on that and not the others who were stripped?
More likely they have nothing much on Stolbova but felt the need to show they were being extra extra extra vigiliant.
Either of course is utter speculation but I personally would rather not suggest athletes who have not been accused of anything, who have not been sanctioned, are guilty of something.
Nothing will ever come out on Bukin because there is nothing at the level to cause a sanctioning of an athlete, if there were, he would have already been sanctioned.
He and Stepanova should continue on as competitors, they have no reason to think they will be sanctioned and there is plenty of time before the next Olys to demand and receive due process.
barbarafan
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Seriously???? STolbova are so injured they have not done a triple twist all year. They are marked on reputation....it is an assisted twist ..he launches...she twists and lands it herself..(often 2 footed) he touches her but does not catch or even slow her down. T/M will medal for sure.and 2nd place russian team could possibly.
Baby girls may get gold/and/or Silver..all 3 might be in top 5.
S/b will not medal this yr and as long as B/S pull another free like nationals and europeans they stand a chance of medaling.
Doubt if any Russian men will medal either way.
Putin has made a beautiful deal and is laughing at the IOC as much as he is laughing at Americans. (sorry-really wrong thread)
caseyedwards
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But Bukin has been banned from one Olympics and no sign as to whether he’ll be allowed in another. It’s not looking for someone better or as good or anything. Just a partner who won’t be banned again.
Whether or not there is still time to clear them, and/or receive clarification before Feb. 9th, they are not excluded because of doping, since such offense would bring much harsher punishment and publicity.
Whatever your motivations are to constantly provide misleading negative information about the Russian situations (trolling, personal wishes of harm and dislike for Russia, stupidity and misinterpretation of facts, etc.) you are MISINFORMING people by giving “wrong twists” to circumstances (that were or still in-question) as “facts”.
- You yelled “Russia will be banned from Olympics” while it was already know “through the grape-wine”, by spring/summer 2017, that Russians will be at the Olympics, but with certain restrictions, one way or another.
- You stated that members of IOC Review Commission hate Russians and will use their own subjective discretion which ones to exclude, using perhaps such criteria as “how active an athlete is in condemning doping on Facebook”. The fact is that IOC had concrete specific criteria, ALL related to doping and testing procedures and results, which they posted in great detail.
- You sounded very sure few days ago that last week’s list of 169 invited athletes is to undergo 2nd review panel, and “some top athletes maybe excluded”. As you see today, it is not so.
- … and there is more of your “ill wishes presented as facts” but I don’t have time to list them..
The facts are that 169 athletes from Russia, are going to the Olympics. Among them are all top medal contenders in Figure Skating, and the total number invited is almost exact as Vancouver’s list of 170 athletes.
Please don’t hang yourself over your inability to see Russia hurt as much as you wished it. If you want to “hurt Russia”, you need to quite chats, and get seriously involved in int’l politics and that will takes years of education and professional development. Wishing does not make things happen…
Lol everything is great and wonderful!! It’s a dream!
It’s not just about figure skating! Basically no biathlon team. Basically no speed skating team. It’s a horrible destruction of Russia at the Olympics because of the IOC banning of roc.
They are banned. This not invited thing means the same thing. If Bukin was going to be allowed in Beijing he’d be allowed in Pyeongchang
You are just all silver linings! Rose colored glasses. One athlete is allowe and it’s amazing accomplishment!
It’s not just about figure skating! Ahn banned. Most biathlon and speed skaters. What kind of deal bans almost all the non figure skating medal contenders?
Tinami Amori
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What are you talking about? I read your earlier comment that "Putin made deals with IOC, he refused to admit doping as as top level government project, refused access to certain cities, etc"... that is nonsense.... Putin, or his cabinet, have no direct involvement in any such decisions, nor would diminish their levels to get involved or even give ANY direct orders.
Russian government on that level, at most, if faced with such issues, would basically say to ministers or authorities in charge of organizations "there is an issue, go a deal with it". At most, they will make general comments, rarely themselves, more often through press secretaries. As far as Putin and his cabinet is concerned, they gave authority and a command to Sports Ministry "to handle Sochi-2014 and to make them successful, and how it happens is not their business. That's how it works in Russia. Same with current situation, all Putin knows is there is a problem and "sports ministries and sports federations must solve them".
This is what Putin said however: Russia has itself to blame for causing this problem, however certain entities used this problem unfairly (against Russia).
http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/1959062/
Владимир Путин, президент РФ: «Во-первых, надо прямо сказать, что мы отчасти сами в этом виноваты, потому что дали повод для этого. А во-вторых, считаю, что этим поводом воспользовались не совсем честным образом, мягко говоря. Ни в одной системе права мира коллективная ответственность не предусматривается».
"First of all, let's be honest, we are partially to blame for this outcome, because we provided the cause. Second, i also think that this cause was used to some degree unfairly (against us), to say the least. Collective punishment is not a accepted method in any legal system."
Tinami Amori
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never mind Russia... but it must be hard to be "you", as you probably don't come out the house often in fear of being hit by a car or poisoned at McDonald's by Russian Mafia... 
.... don't forget to "duck and cover"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTf04F5WxEM
... because The Russians are coming... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEWWRbn4zG0
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hanca
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You could have chosen a better clip of the Russians are coming. Such as this...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9WFVhe1Eqb4
Your clip needs more drama.
ohashibiles
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Why are they bunning undoped Russians even? They might as well just have banned the country altogether.
caseyedwards
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.... don't forget to "duck and cover"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTf04F5WxEM
... because The Russians are coming... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEWWRbn4zG0
I worked for a Russian company! I have no problems. Used to walk to McDonald’s from my Russian employer! Lol.
Totally agree! But I said fourneyron would find ways to ban as many Russians as she could!
skatingguy
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169 athletes is about in line with what Russia would have entered into the games even without the ban on the Russian Olympic Committee and the extra screening. This team is smaller than for Sochi, but host countries get more entries than they would if they had to earn them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_at_the_Olympics
caseyedwards
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It should be over 200 but because so many speed skaters and biathlon and short track people were banned and couldn’t be replaced it’s lower than it should be. Also many sports have had replacements of lesser talents. Many sports have versions of a/r replacing s/k. Just lack of equal replacements. Like z/g replacing s/b. What a drop in quality.
toddlj
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I try not to discuss politics here, but FYI, Trump is not currently being evaluated solely on the economy (the trajectory of which he inherited from his predecessor.) Current polls show quite the opposite. Polls show people are happy with the economy and unhappy with him nonetheless. To assume he'll enjoy the same treatment from voters as previous presidents did would assume he is the same kind of president, and he is, by his own admission, not.
(But you're right, this is PI argument)
D
Deleted member 40371
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it is not number, but who gets to go that is in question...
Tinami Amori
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ok, got it! a disgruntled employee....
https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohs81rDuEz9ioJzAA/giphy.gif- no... not as "she could" but as "she had to and was obligated according to set and now published criteria".
- if, as you state she hated Russians that much, and "could" at her will, she would have excluded, for example, all top Russian skaters, Med, Zag, T/M ... and yet she did not, because they met criteria.
I have a little secret for you... Russian side received more than 169... due to internal decisions, in the administration and in certain federations, they CHOSE only 169..
Original filing was for 500 (athletes and officials). 389 received invitation (as final list known in early january). 111 did not receive invitations (including athletes Stolbova, Bukin, Ahn, etc, and officials). Russia side filed with only 169 names. So 389 - 169 = 220 names WITH invitations, but not on the final list from the Russian side. Some of the remaining athletes from 220 list, are qualified, eligible, and willing to compete.... but Russia presumably did not submit their names...
It is a mystery, there are discrepancies and questions....and only 1 publication is talking about it...
https://matchtv.ru/olimpijskije_igr...Koreju_389_rossijan_Pochemu_pojedut_tolko_169
neah.... too much drama as such would scare away caseyedwards, and i want him around...
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