Increasingly likely “Russia” will be banned from Pyeongchang

[bardtoob]

@Marco

 

[SmallFairy]

So, is being a sperm donor considered a profession? Or a surrogate mum?

 

[overedge]

In many jurisdictions it's legal to advertise for a job and to require applicants to have a specified characteristic like a certain gender IF there's an essential part of the job that requires it. Like female prison guards in a women-only prison because the guards have to do things like body searches of the inmates.

 

[zebraswan]

If Voronov makes the team and then doesn't get to the Olympics, I will cut someone.

I will sharpen the knife...

Geee, really. Can he decide on his own and go without representing Russia? If yes, he should def. do that. Feck the flag. This would be his last chance.

I don't think he would consider it for a moment...he loves his country too much.

 

[rfisher]

By the way, someone legally female can be a sperm donor and someone legally male can be an egg donor or surrogate mother.

I need to find a paper on that. That would be an excellent topic for my transcultural healthcare class in the spring! PM me if you know of any published data I can research.

 

[Skmom]

If the new database evidence corroborates with Rodchenkov, it could make it extremely awkward for the IOC to try to be lenient on Russia:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...oving-widespread-russian-doping-idUSKBN1DA2N7

This data was leaked recently from Russia. Even you don't believe Rodchenkov, the evidence is starting to pile up. Also, some poster said that Rodchenkov didn't name names? Of course he did, he did much more than just tell his story, he dumped emails, files, etc. You can see redacted versions of them on the McLaren Report website - some emails quite damning.

That being said, it would be a tragedy for Russia to not be at the Olympics in Figure Skating (specifically). Medvedeva is not to blame for this whole mess. I hope there is some solution.

 

[IceAlisa]

Of course it’s the right of the customer to choose if they would prefer a male or female massage therapist. However, it would be discriminatory (here at least) for an employer to specify they were only recruiting a particular sex.

By the way, someone legally female can be a sperm donor and someone legally male can be an egg donor or surrogate mother.

Yes? But the ad would specify biological female/male if they were after specific reproductive functions. There are also genders capable of neither.

 

[misskarne]

You cannot, cannot, ban innocent athletes just because of what country they're from. Do you not see the massive slippery slope that would start us down? How dangerous a thought that is?

There should be proof that an athlete has committed wrongdoing before their career is destroyed by something like this. Not a pathetic single scratchmark on a bottle. Not signs that other athletes from their country might have been doing the wrong thing, or that a team doctor or a group of coaches might be doing the wrong thing. Otherwise, you'll be banning most countries and may as well not have an Olympics at all.

A total Russia ban will not fix anything or make any problems go away. If anything, it will only make things worse because now you'll have a very justified resentment from a very large group of people who have been banned for no other reason than the flag next to their name. You'll have athletes who'll resent that people will always look at their achievements and say "but if the Russians had been there..." It will be divisive and aggravating and entirely, completely unhelpful - and it will get the Russians' backs up and build their "us vs the rest of the world" mentality.

This whole thing has been handled in the most disgraceful manner by every body involved - WADA, IAAF, the IOC. That we are now less than three months out from the games and we still don't have an outcome on this is disgusting. WADA and the IOC are holding the Russian athletes to ransom. USADA in particular need to shut the fcuk up and look at their own house before slandering innocent athletes.

 

[BlueRidge]

The problem is the Olympics are not organized for athletes. They are organized for countries. Its all about and only about countries and athletes representing them.

And that's probably what most needs to go.

 

[overedge]

The problem is the Olympics are not organized for athletes. They are organized for countries.

I thought they were organized for broadcasters and sponsors

 

[Meoima]

I thought they were organized for broadcasters and sponsors

And for political groups trying to show off their power.

 

[caseyedwards]

If the new database evidence corroborates with Rodchenkov, it could make it extremely awkward for the IOC to try to be lenient on Russia:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...oving-widespread-russian-doping-idUSKBN1DA2N7

This data was leaked recently from Russia. Even you don't believe Rodchenkov, the evidence is starting to pile up. Also, some poster said that Rodchenkov didn't name names? Of course he did, he did much more than just tell his story, he dumped emails, files, etc. You can see redacted versions of them on the McLaren Report website - some emails quite damning.

That being said, it would be a tragedy for Russia to not be at the Olympics in Figure Skating (specifically). Medvedeva is not to blame for this whole mess. I hope there is some solution.

There is no solution. The solution of Medvedeva being ordered to compete as neutral means no Medvedeva.

 

[Aerobicidal]

Since I know several reporters at the Times (or did) and since thanks to them (ETA; in part, of course there was other reliable coverage), we know about the doping scandal, they are indeed a reliable source.

Thinking that you can discount the excellent investigative reporting at the Times with a few emojis.
Definitely my laugh for the day. Thanks!

Maybe there are two newspapers being conflated here: The New York Times and "The New York Times".

 

[Japanfan]

That is totally discriminatory. What jobs ad can specify someone be male/female in this century?

Hooters Airlines? If that vile and offensive company even continues to exist?

 

[IceAlisa]

Hooters Airlines? If that vile and offensive company even continues to exist?

That one could definitely hire a biological male as long as he or she had boobs and looked the part. They may have done so already.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

There is no solution. The solution of Medvedeva being ordered to compete as neutral means no Medvedeva.

Unless Vlad the Invader actually cared about the athletes themselves and not the glory for Mother Russia supposedly stemming from any success they might achieve (and the same goes for any politician in power faced with the same choice, including 45 and his minions).

 

[Braulio]

So Russia has now lost 4 golds 6 silvers and 1 bronze medal and being the 1st nation at top of the medal table at Sochi

 

[IceAlisa]

 

[skatingguy]

You cannot, cannot, ban innocent athletes just because of what country they're from. Do you not see the massive slippery slope that would start us down? How dangerous a thought that is?

South Africa was banned from international competition for many years for apartheid, was that wrong? I'm not comparing what the Russians did to apartheid, but we have banned countries before. Serbia was banned from a couple of games following the Balkans war. Kuwait was banned from the Rio Olympics for political interference with the countries Olympic committee. This is not new.

There should be proof that an athlete has committed wrongdoing before their career is destroyed by something like this. Not a pathetic single scratchmark on a bottle. Not signs that other athletes from their country might have been doing the wrong thing, or that a team doctor or a group of coaches might be doing the wrong thing. Otherwise, you'll be banning most countries and may as well not have an Olympics at all.

It is so much more than a single scratchmark, so much more. Their is the testimony of Dr. Rodchenko concerning the existence of the doping scheme and the mechanisms used to ensure it's success in Sochi. The mysterious deaths of Russian sporting officials when it appeared they may speak out about the doping. The physical evidence of the samples, including scratch marks indicating tampering, salt levels that are not possible in a living human being, and DNA testing which corroborates Dr. Rodchenko's testimony. There is the documents from the RUSADA lab in Moscow that further corroborated Dr. Rodchenko and provided lists of athletes that were involved in the doping referred to as the 'Duchess List'.

A total Russia ban will not fix anything or make any problems go away. If anything, it will only make things worse because now you'll have a very justified resentment from a very large group of people who have been banned for no other reason than the flag next to their name. You'll have athletes who'll resent that people will always look at their achievements and say "but if the Russians had been there..." It will be divisive and aggravating and entirely, completely unhelpful - and it will get the Russians' backs up and build their "us vs the rest of the world" mentality.

As a fan of the Olympics, and figure skating (even, at times, Russian figure skating) the whole thing makes me sad. It takes me back to being 8 years old watching Ben Johnson win the Olympic gold medal in the 100m, the most prestigious of the Olympic events. The whole country celebrating this huge victory on a global stage. And then the embarrassment of having it all been a lie. The shame of living in a country where people cheated to win a foot race. But, in Canada we took it as an opportunity. We had the Dubin Inquiry. We required athletes, coaches, and sporting officials to come forward and testify to their involvement and complicity in doping offenses. We gutted are sporting culture and positive drug tests by Canadian athletes since then have become much less common, not zero, but a vast improvement over where we were in the late 1980's.
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/bcp-pco/CP32-56-1990-1-eng.pdf
Most of the early pages talk about the Canadian sporting organizations, testing apparatus and International sporting institutions, and then there is a section on banned substances. Most of that is now quite outdated, however if you skip down to page 164 you can read about the who, and how of Canadian doping.

I can only hope that Russia can make such a change in it's sporting culture. The IOC has completed the retesting of all the samples from the Beijing and London Olympics and while there were positive tests discovered for athletes from a number countries Russia, unfortunately, leads the way.
https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/...74.851145406.1511969578-1677150728.1511385268

This whole thing has been handled in the most disgraceful manner by every body involved - WADA, IAAF, the IOC. That we are now less than three months out from the games and we still don't have an outcome on this is disgusting. WADA and the IOC are holding the Russian athletes to ransom. USADA in particular need to shut the fcuk up and look at their own house before slandering innocent athletes.

While I would never accuse a sporting organization of competence, I think it worth pointing out that most of the blame should be put squarely on the shoulders of the Russian sporting organizations, RUSADA, and the government agencies that hatched this plan and then carried it out. At this point, if they would just admit that it happened and allowed access to the samples store at RUSADA's Moscow based lab that would be enough for WADA to certify that the country is in compliance and allow the IOC to allow full participation in the Pyeongchang Olympic. It's difficult to know how much to blame the athletes that were involved because I wonder about how much of a choice they had, though I suppose everyone has choices even if they're all bad. I look at some of the examples of the athletes involved and I wonder, 'Who thought they needed to cheat to win?' Take the example of Russian Skeleton athlete Alexandr Tretiakov. He is the Bronze medalist from the 2010 Olympics, the 2013 World Champion. He's going to be competing on a home track that has only just been built, which gives him a huge advantage because he'll have done more runs then any other athlete. It really helps sliding sports because the track becomes more like driving to work than the bombing down a hill face first, which is what really skeleton is. His biggest competitor in the event is Martin Dukurs of Latvia, crumbled a bit under the Olympic pressure in 2010 when the gold medal was one solid run away, and he faded to silver. Tretiakov was the favourite, he could have won clean, but he didn't and now the result have been nullified, and Dukurs will likely get the gold.

So now the question becomes what do we do about this whole mess. If Russian officials won't comply with WADA then I don't see any choice but to ban Russia from the games and have the athletes compete as independent athletes. It's not a good option, but there are no good options in this situation. It's not fair to the Russian athletes who were never part of the doping scheme. It's not fair to the athletes who should have won medals or become Olympic Champion when the world was watching in 2014. It's not fair to the families of these athletes, who have sacrificed and supported them, to have lost that indelible moment of victory. It's not fair to the athletes who will compete in February and whose win will have a little asterisk beside it, like 1980 or 1984, that says 'Yeah, but the Russians weren't there'. It's not fair to the fans who paid money for tickets, and travel, or who sat on their edge of their seats while cheering on their athletes. The whole thing sucks. There are no winners here.

 

[caseyedwards]

South Africa was banned from international competition for many years for apartheid, was that wrong? I'm not comparing what the Russians did to apartheid, but we have banned countries before. Serbia was banned from a couple of games following the Balkans war. Kuwait was banned from the Rio Olympics for political interference with the countries Olympic committee. This is not new.


It is so much more than a single scratchmark, so much more. Their is the testimony of Dr. Rodchenko concerning the existence of the doping scheme and the mechanisms used to ensure it's success in Sochi. The mysterious deaths of Russian sporting officials when it appeared they may speak out about the doping. The physical evidence of the samples, including scratch marks indicating tampering, salt levels that are not possible in a living human being, and DNA testing which corroborates Dr. Rodchenko's testimony. There is the documents from the RUSADA lab in Moscow that further corroborated Dr. Rodchenko and provided lists of athletes that were involved in the doping referred to as the 'Duchess List'.


As a fan of the Olympics, and figure skating (even, at times, Russian figure skating) the whole thing makes me sad. It takes me back to being 8 years old watching Ben Johnson win the Olympic gold medal in the 100m, the most prestigious of the Olympic events. The whole country celebrating this huge victory on a global stage. And then the embarrassment of having it all been a lie. The shame of living in a country where people cheated to win a foot race. But, in Canada we took it as an opportunity. We had the Dubin Inquiry. We required athletes, coaches, and sporting officials to come forward and testify to their involvement and complicity in doping offenses. We gutted are sporting culture and positive drug tests by Canadian athletes since then have become much less common, not zero, but a vast improvement over where we were in the late 1980's.
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/bcp-pco/CP32-56-1990-1-eng.pdf
Most of the early pages talk about the Canadian sporting organizations, testing apparatus and International sporting institutions, and then there is a section on banned substances. Most of that is now quite outdated, however if you skip down to page 164 you can read about the who, and how of Canadian doping.

I can only hope that Russia can make such a change in it's sporting culture. The IOC has completed the retesting of all the samples from the Beijing and London Olympics and while there were positive tests discovered for athletes from a number countries Russia, unfortunately, leads the way.
https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Document Library/OlympicOrg/IOC/Who-We-Are/Commissions/Disciplinary-Commission/2017/Disciplinary-Commission-IOC-Session-Lima-retesting-Beijing-and-London-Eng.pdf#_ga=2.6094074.851145406.1511969578-1677150728.1511385268


While I would never accuse a sporting organization of competence, I think it worth pointing out that most of the blame should be put squarely on the shoulders of the Russian sporting organizations, RUSADA, and the government agencies that hatched this plan and then carried it out. At this point, if they would just admit that it happened and allowed access to the samples store at RUSADA's Moscow based lab that would be enough for WADA to certify that the country is in compliance and allow the IOC to allow full participation in the Pyeongchang Olympic. It's difficult to know how much to blame the athletes that were involved because I wonder about how much of a choice they had, though I suppose everyone has choices even if they're all bad. I look at some of the examples of the athletes involved and I wonder, 'Who thought they needed to cheat to win?' Take the example of Russian Skeleton athlete Alexandr Tretiakov. He is the Bronze medalist from the 2010 Olympics, the 2013 World Champion. He's going to be competing on a home track that has only just been built, which gives him a huge advantage because he'll have done more runs then any other athlete. It really helps sliding sports because the track becomes more like driving to work than the bombing down a hill face first, which is what really skeleton is. His biggest competitor in the event is Martin Dukurs of Latvia, crumbled a bit under the Olympic pressure in 2010 when the gold medal was one solid run away, and he faded to silver. Tretiakov was the favourite, he could have won clean, but he didn't and now the result have been nullified, and Dukurs will likely get the gold.

So now the question becomes what do we do about this whole mess. If Russian officials won't comply with WADA then I don't see any choice but to ban Russia from the games and have the athletes compete as independent athletes. It's not a good option, but there are no good options in this situation. It's not fair to the Russian athletes who were never part of the doping scheme. It's not fair to the athletes who should have won medals or become Olympic Champion when the world was watching in 2014. It's not fair to the families of these athletes, who have sacrificed and supported them, to have lost that indelible moment of victory. It's not fair to the athletes who will compete in February and whose win will have a little asterisk beside it, like 1980 or 1984, that says 'Yeah, but the Russians weren't there'. It's not fair to the fans who paid money for tickets, and travel, or who sat on their edge of their seats while cheering on their athletes. The whole thing sucks. There are no winners here.

You say the athletes may have been forced to cooperate with the Russian doping system but when they were alone with rodchenkov and drank the steroid cocktail exactly how he was telling them to and then alone with their doping control form and used their cell phone to take a picture of of it and send it to the ministry so they can send or to rodchenkov so he can switch the urine you can see all the steps where athletes were in charge. Then there is also stockpiling of clean urine when they didn’t have steroids in the system. The only right thing to do is to ban all Russian athletes because so many times Russian athletes were the ones in charge of Making the system work. It wasn’t a system where the athletes were doped without their knowledge it was one where they were knowing and maybe eager participants every step of the way. If the Russian athletes felt they may be killed or have their careers ended if they didn’t follow that’s a good reason to just try to stop sports in Russia for a while! The culture is just too exteme in desiring wins. It’s not safe for athletes. No neutrals from Russia should be allowed. No Russians allowed. Sports is too corrupted. I don’t see how allowing Russians to compete as neutrals fixes the system. Makes Russia more like Canada. It would be very smart for ioc or IAAF or wada to try to force Russia to have some kind of Canadian overseers. Maybe Mclaren can be hired to run Russian sports or be official advisors to Russians.

 

[barbarafan]

You say the athletes may have been forced to cooperate with the Russian doping system but when they were alone with rodchenkov and drank the steroid cocktail exactly how he was telling them to and then alone with their doping control form and used their cell phone to take a picture of of it and send it to the ministry so they can send or to rodchenkov so he can switch the urine you can see all the steps where athletes were in charge. Then there is also stockpiling of clean urine when they didn’t have steroids in the system. The only right thing to do is to ban all Russian athletes because so many times Russian athletes were the ones in charge of Making the system work. It wasn’t a system where the athletes were doped without their knowledge it was one where they were knowing and maybe eager participants every step of the way. If the Russian athletes felt they may be killed or have their careers ended if they didn’t follow that’s a good reason to just try to stop sports in Russia for a while! The culture is just too exteme in desiring wins. It’s not safe for athletes. No neutrals from Russia should be allowed. No Russians allowed. Sports is too corrupted. I don’t see how allowing Russians to compete as neutrals fixes the system. Makes Russia more like Canada. It would be very smart for ioc or IAAF or wada to try to force Russia to have some kind of Canadian overseers. Maybe Mclaren can be hired to run Russian sports or be official advisors to Russians.

Sorry but 1) Those that were given the drugs without their knowledge had to do with special Olympics I believe & their trusted people around them did the deeds. I am not going through the details of this ...it is in some of these threads & I did not memorize them...that is very sad.
2) I do not feel that anyone that did not drug nor participate in someone else's drugging should be punished in any way as they are just as innocent of this crime as I am and if other athletes could find a way to compete I wish they would. (or could). It is not the Russian people themselves at fault but the thugs at the top and all they have to do is man up..admit it happens and conform to the rules set out for them. Sadly I do not believe those responsible will do this.
3) The whole situation totally sucks.
4) We have some really shitty people in Canada as well so let's lose the holier than thou nonsense but the diff. is that the people in the majority (really huge majority) won't stand for it and are ashamed and shuns anyone who cheats in any way.

 

[eurodance2001]

Doesn’t Putin have Bach wrapped around his finger? I seriously doubt Russia will be banned from the Games. This is all for $hits and giggles.. For ‘unity’ and the ‘spirit of the Olympic movement’ Bach will force the IOC to look the other way.. Just watch..

 

[missing]

Does anyone here know exactly how the decision will be rendered? Will the head of the IOC make it by himself or will it be by a majority vote of a committee? Is there an appeals process? Can the Court of Arbitration for Sports become involved?

 

[skatingguy]

Does anyone here know exactly how the decision will be rendered? Will the head of the IOC make it by himself or will it be by a majority vote of a committee? Is there an appeals process? Can the Court of Arbitration for Sports become involved?

Not sure about CAS appeal. The Russians did appeal regarding the IPC decision and the IPC's ban was up held for the Rio Olympics - which was a decision that surprised me. Here is a little blurb about the IOC decision:

The IOC said on Friday that a "decision with regard to the participation of Russian athletes in theses Olympics will be taken" by its executive board on the opening day of a Dec. 5-6 meeting in its home city of Lausanne, Switzerland.

IOC President Thomas Bach is scheduled to announce the decision at a news conference starting at 7.30 p.m. local time (1830 GMT).
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/ioc-russia-participation-pyeongchang-games-1.4406810

 

[caseyedwards]

Sorry but 1) Those that were given the drugs without their knowledge had to do with special Olympics I believe & their trusted people around them did the deeds. I am not going through the details of this ...it is in some of these threads & I did not memorize them...that is very sad.
2) I do not feel that anyone that did not drug nor participate in someone else's drugging should be punished in any way as they are just as innocent of this crime as I am and if other athletes could find a way to compete I wish they would. (or could). It is not the Russian people themselves at fault but the thugs at the top and all they have to do is man up..admit it happens and conform to the rules set out for them. Sadly I do not believe those responsible will do this.
3) The whole situation totally sucks.
4) We have some really shitty people in Canada as well so let's lose the holier than thou nonsense but the diff. is that the people in the majority (really huge majority) won't stand for it and are ashamed and shuns anyone who cheats in any way.

The problem is the culture of Russian sports. Everyone must be excluded for a while because If you let some in or most actually nothing changes as can be seen by Russia failing to meet all requirements for reinstatement in 2 years!

It’s the Paralympics.

Doesn’t Putin have Bach wrapped around his finger? I seriously doubt Russia will be banned from the Games. This is all for $hits and giggles.. For ‘unity’ and the ‘spirit of the Olympic movement’ Bach will force the IOC to look the other way.. Just watch..

If Bach was an employee of Putin why is Russia losing any medals? Why is ioc taking rodchenkov seriously when putin says he shouldn’t? Bach is not an employee of putin. If he doesn’t ban Russia he will lose his job! US Canada japan Australia etc is far more powerful than Russia. That’s why Russia is losing so many medals.

 

[kwanfan1818]

As far as athletes trusting their doctors and coaches, Bobrova said that she carried her own meds and watched them being injected so that she knew exactly was in them, and that's why she knew she hadn't taken Meldonium after the deadline.

 

[Carolla5501]

Hooters Airlines? If that vile and offensive company even continues to exist?

The airline doesn't... the bars do and they won their case and can hire women only for waitress positions!

Over the years I have known some families whose kids were competitive athletes. One of the things they are coached on is "know what you are taking", the kids know never to take meds from ANYONE without research. So the "I just took whatever someone gave me" chant is hard to believe unless there is an organized "push" from above.

 

[Jayar]

The only reason why folks here believe that a full ban of Russia is unfair is because we are skating fans and we don't want to see the skaters banned. The investigation has already revealed a number of cheats from the Sochi Games, and as the investigation continues, there may be more. Of course it would be best to ban singular athletes, but if (and it seems that if is very likely) the state sponsored the doping, the federation should be banned. It doesn't mean that I won't be sad to see clean athletes excluded from the Games-- I would love to see everyone there prepared, healthy, and CLEAN. But that's not reality. Even if Russia is banned, there will be positive tests. Athletes will be expelled from the Games, and we will talk about how much they suck for making a mockery of fair competition. In the end, I would like to see a fair and safe Winter Olympic Games next year. That's the most important thing-- and may the best performances win.

 

[zebraswan]

The only reason why folks here believe that a full ban of Russia is unfair is because we are skating fans and we don't want to see the skaters banned.

That's not true at all. I was against banning the whole Russian team in Rio, and I would be against it no matter what. There are sports where doping is not endemic and sports where the opposite is true. Why in the world should people be punished that have nothing to do with those notoriously dirty sports (where, by the way, Russians are far from the only ones who are dirty!)? I have 0 interest in watching the Olympics if they ban the whole team. What a joke that will be...but not an amusing one.

 

[Tahuu]

So Russia has now lost 4 golds 6 silvers and 1 bronze medal and being the 1st nation at top of the medal table at Sochi

That's 11 out of 33 medals, >33%, and total of 22 athletes disqualified including 12 non-medaled athletes. Russia is now #5 on the new Sochi medal table.