Ice Dance in the early 2000's

[DivaOnIce]

Short backstory: After watching a lot of figure skating in my childhood and teenage years, I somewhat lost sight of the sport for the past ten years or so and became a very occasional viewer. That changed again this year and I also started to re-watch old performances, especially from the early 2000's (which I still remember from when I was a child).

I'm especially intrigued by the Ice Dance of the time because I can't easily judge those performances for myself. When reading up a little, I came across a lot of mentions that this or that couple didn't deserve their medals, were robbed or simply whining. I know there was a lot of politics going on at the time but I'm curious as to how others would rank the pairs of the era. I think Anissina/Peizerat are mostly exempt from the previously mentioned criticism but I've seen such comments about almost everyone else who won medals during the early 2000's including Lobacheva/Averbukh, Fusar-Poli/Margalio, Drobiazko/Vanagas, Bourne/Kraatz, Chait/Sakhnovski, etc. and that, for example, Denkova/Staviski should have won more medals earlier. So how would you rank those couples in retrospect, who should have won more or less and why do you think so?

Any input is much welcome, I'd like to get a better understanding of the time!

 

[Vash01]

Short backstory: After watching a lot of figure skating in my childhood and teenage years, I somewhat lost sight of the sport for the past ten years or so and became a very occasional viewer. That changed again this year and I also started to re-watch old performances, especially from the early 2000's (which I still remember from when I was a child).

I'm especially intrigued by the Ice Dance of the time because I can't easily judge those performances for myself. When reading up a little, I came across a lot of mentions that this or that couple didn't deserve their medals, were robbed or simply whining. I know there was a lot of politics going on at the time but I'm curious as to how others would rank the pairs of the era. I think Anissina/Peizerat are mostly exempt from the previously mentioned criticism but I've seen such comments about almost everyone else who won medals during the early 2000's including Lobacheva/Averbukh, Fusar-Poli/Margalio, Drobiazko/Vanagas, Bourne/Kraatz, Chait/Sakhnovski, etc. and that, for example, Denkova/Staviski should have won more medals earlier. So how would you rank those couples in retrospect, who should have won more or less and why do you think so?

Any input is much welcome, I'd like to get a better understanding of the time!

From 2000 onward I lost some of my interest in ice dance, partly because my favorite ice dance team Krylova-Ovssianikov had to retire due to Angelika's back injury. I liked some of the remaining pairs but nowhere close to my earlier favorites like Klimova Ponomarenko, K&O, and Usova Zhulin.

I liked Anissina -Peizerat. They were the best. Didn't care for FP&M, Chait-Sakhnovsky, Bourne & Kratz. I liked Denkova Staviyski. I would put them just behind A&P. I liked Navka Kostomarov, but I don't think they were strong in the early 2000s. I liked Domnina Shabalin, but they struggled with his injuries (but may be they came on the scene later?) Lobacheva Averbukh looked good in 2002 but nowhere near the great ice dancers from Russia. There was a French team that I can't remember right now, but they were very creative.

FP&M won the Olympic bronze in 2002, even with a fall in FD, which means the ice dance field was not very strong.

 

[Spun Silver]

The creative French team would be Delobel-Schoenfelder, right, @Vash01? They peaked in the second half of the decade. I miss their voidiness!

 

[Vash01]

The creative French team would be Delobel-Schoenfelder, right, @Vash01? They peaked in the second half of the decade. I miss their voidiness!

Yes. Thank you.

 

[firstflight]

The set up of the early 2000's Ice Dance realm was the drama of the 1999 worlds. A/P won the OD from K/O with a stunning Masquerade Waltz. The FD decision was a 5-4 split in favor of K/O. That decision was somewhat controversial because A/P fans tend to think the Man in the Iron Mask FD is on the shortlist of their very best FD's, while K/O's drum-heavy FD was framed as a retread of the Duscheneys' 1988 FD.

So when Krylova's back condition forced them out of competition, A/P were already primed to be the next World Champs, especially in a home country worlds in 2000. They rose to the challenge, but F-P/M had a very solid showing that would set them up to be competitive for the 2001 Worlds. D/V from Lithuania snatched the bronze from Russia's number 1 team of L/A at the 2000 worlds, so their drop in rankings in subsequent years led their increasing out-spokedness.

B/K were switching coaches in the process, and got a completely new look with Tarasova by the 2001 home country worlds in Vancouver. They placed out of the medals in 4th place, losing the bronze to L/A, which is setting up the 2002 spike in L/A's scoring potential. In the 2001 worlds, D/V dropped to 5th.

Of course, then 2002 post-Olympics worlds had a depleted field, with L/A being the easy favorites to win given what the judging was like at the Olympics. They did, and then lost worlds the next year to B/K. A very notable part of 2002 worlds was C/K winning the bronze over D/V.

 

[zilam98]

it was interesting to see delobel-schoenfelder's great gig in the sky competing against the version from a very young and upcoming v/m. the tail end of generation 6.0 competing against the primary generation of the CoP era skaters. of course, this was 2009, i'm aware of that. just mentioning the great gig in the sky since delobel-schoenfelder was mentioned.

 

[Anjelica]

This thread makes me feel extremely old; well maybe I am

 

[Simone411]

it was interesting to see delobel-schoenfelder's great gig in the sky competing against the version from a very young and upcoming v/m. the tail end of generation 6.0 competing against the primary generation of the CoP era skaters. of course, this was 2009, i'm aware of that. just mentioning the great gig in the sky since delobel-schoenfelder was mentioned.

I'm glad that you did because I was thinking around 2006 during the Olympics. I remember it was one of the first times I was finally able to see them on TV in the U.S. I was totally excited by and appreciated the originality of the brother & sister team, Sinead & John Kerr. I really loved this fresh new look of Ice Dancing. They were also one of very few couples that didn't fall during the Original Dance.

2006 Olympics Original Dance - Sinead & John Kerr

 

[SmallFairy]

I was live in Helsinki for 1999 Worlds, and the arena was electric when A/P beat K/O in the OD. (A/P skated to My sweet and affectionate beast by the way, not Masquerade waltz ) I was a huge A/P-fan since Euros the same year, when I was blown away by TMITIM, and was heartbroken when they were beaten by the drumming FD at Worlds. I didn’t like the drums much back then, but I loved Angelica and Oleg, she was so special. Now I’ve grown to like the African drum program a lot, a quite cool.

A/P remain my fave dancers ever. Their passion was something else. The year after, vocals were allowed in dance for the first time, and I remember reading A/P went straight to Carmina Burana. They wanted to skate to it so much, and was afraid the rules might change again the season after.

Denkova/Stavitsky I also liked a lot. Another WTF moment was at 2003 Euros, when they skated their fantastic, special and original OD to baroque music, and lost to L/A. Politics, nothing else. I could never warm up to L/A, so much fabrics all over, so much neon, and how many programs did they skate to Rock’n Roll??? Imagine my horror when they almost beat A/P in Salt Lake City

Sergei Sakhnovsky and Peter Tchernysev was two brilliant dancers of the era, magic on the blades, but stuck with partners who couldn’t match their skills. Should they stayed in Russia? Maybe they should just have teamed up? Sigh...

The Swedish commentators used to refer to Povilas Vanagas as “The best ice dancer in the world”.

Maurizio Margaglio was not, (Barbara was really good) but he sure as h*** tried his best. They brought some epic drama we wouldn’t be without

 

[alchemy void]

This thread (and videos) will give you a good snapshot of the state of dance in the 99-2000 season:

1999 Cup of Russia - Lifetime

TSL mentioned Lifetime's entire coverage of this event has been uploaded onto youtube by Hyacinth B. And holy shit, this is GOLD. Lifetime covered pairs and dance this season, in something of a proto-reality show format-- light on actual performances, but heavy on backstage drama, interviews...

www.fsuniverse.net

 

[Judy]

Ice dance has changed soooo much since the 2000’s. there were some great couples.

 

[supergirl573]

Denkova/Stavitsky were really loved, but their retirement after he killed that poor man in the DUI car accident, in lack of better terms, really opened the ice dance. If they didn’t have to retire, they would have been the favorites for the Vancouver gold.

 

[Japanfan]

I'm especially intrigued by the Ice Dance of the time because I can't easily judge those performances for myself. When reading up a little, I came across a lot of mentions that this or that couple didn't deserve their medals, were robbed or simply whining. I know there was a lot of politics going on at the time but I'm curious as to how others would rank the pairs of the era. I think Anissina/Peizerat are mostly exempt from the previously mentioned criticism but I've seen such comments about almost everyone else who won medals during the early 2000's including Lobacheva/Averbukh, Fusar-Poli/Margalio, Drobiazko/Vanagas, Bourne/Kraatz, Chait/Sakhnovski, etc. and that, for example, Denkova/Staviski should have won more medals earlier. So how would you rank those couples in retrospect, who should have won more or less and why do you think so?

I'd need to rewatch a lot of those programs, as I didn't have much of an opinion about dance at the time. I have found dance easier to understand since CoP and think it has definitely benefited from CoP in some ways. At the same time, it has arbuably constrained the FD to a certain extent. But IMO, creativity always finds a way. There have been lots of interesting dance routines since CoP was implemented. The zombie routine immediately comes to mind, but I don't remember who skated it (a German team?). And OTOH, there were plenty of cookie cutter dance routines under 6/0.

I do remember that there was a general consensus that D/V were undermarked. I agreed with that. I was among the large number of audience members who walked out before the medals were awarded at the 2001 Worlds. There had been no movement in the dance standings at all.

There was also a general consensus that C/S were overscored, related to the perception that Papa C was lining the judges' pockets. I think there may have been a negative bias towards them - I quite liked them.

And of courses there were complaints that B/K were either over-scored because they were Canadian, or held back because they were Canadian. I quite liked B/K as well. I really don't care how difficult their 'Riverdance' was - it's one of my fave routines.

At some point I lost interest in Pairs. I didn't bother to watch dance at the 2006 Olympics. Then my interest was reinvigorated by V/M. And I was very fond of the Kerrs and the French D/S. Their 'The Piano' is another favorite of mine.

These days my interest in dance has somewhat dwindled, because I'm not a P/C uber. Same with men - not a Nathan uber. Between Chen and Hanyu, I root for Hanyu, but was not a fan previously. I was not a happy camper when Chan just handed Hanyu the gold at the 2014 Olympics. Although I knew it was going to happen. Chan had been indicating that he was having trouble coping with the pressure in interviews leading up to those games.

To retain interest in those disciplines I focus on the competition for top five - although I enjoy watching all the ice teams if I can.

I really miss the OD - the folk dance OD at the 2010 Olympics was memorable for me. I even miss when there were three CDs. More skating to watch! I even liked the Yankee Polka, and could watch the whole field skate them.

 

[VGThuy]

The early 2000s is where I cut my teeth as an ice dance fan and learned the trade. The 2002 Olympics (and 2001 Worlds somewhat) was the first time I truly paid attention to ice dance. I never looked back even though in retrospect and watching previous eras, I'm not sure if this was a good era of ice dance in terms of programs and skill but it was tops in terms of nationalism and personality.

Looking back at it now, I think Anissina/Peizerat were the only post-Krylova/Ovysiannikov (where "eys" comes from but does anybody use that on FSU anymore?) team that would be worthy of note from their era when looking at the past ice dance greats of all time. They had chemistry, difficulty, and great concepts (most of the time, I mean that Martin Luther King FD was a clunker and they lucked out that no other team had what they had and also had bad FDs (for the most part)). Lobacheva/Averbukh's quick rise to gold medal contenders (losing the OGM by a 5-4 split) was such a farce that I'm still not quite over it even though it still worked out for A/P in the end thanks to some possible .

Speaking of that, did that actually happen? Either way, I do believe some sort of deal happened (whether Marina herself was involved or not) that probably went out of the window somewhat after the Pairs scandal broke out. This was the first time I paid attention to controversial judge Alla Shekhovtsova (remember her as the judge who hugged Adelina Sotnikova at the 2014 Olympics) who probably felt free from the deal Didier made with the Russian Fed once the pairs scandal broke out, and voted for L/A in the FD despite any deals being made...she probably felt even more empowered to do so when the Polish judge in the Original Dance gave L/A the first place vote over A/P's masterpiece of a Flamenco and even gave L/A's OD a 6.0 to boot! Since she didn't do that, surely nobody would accuse her of any bias if she so happened to change her mind in the FD, right? She was just voting for the performance of that day. You all believe that, right?

Bourne/Kraatz were better skaters under Tarasova than they were under Dubova who they had been stagnating under for quite some time and was becoming more tone deaf to their need to improve, but their Michael Jackson FD though entertaining sort of showed their shortcomings as a team (like that slow butt straight-line (and I mean straight-line...like where were the curves?) footwork sequence during the "Smile" segment). That Spanish OD wasn't the disaster that their 1999-2000 Latin OD was, but it was not good. They were better the season prior.

Fusar-Poli/Margaglio...they taught me that skating with confidence and as clean as one can with "exciting" material can hide a lot in ice dance, at least at the time. And it helps to have some political backing. Their 2001 Worlds win lead Marina Anissina to get desperate enough to justifiably make some deals (if that did happen). They also taught me that when you have loser material and skate with a true lack of confidence and have a program that didn't take advantage of their strengths ("I Will Survive" was choreographically a fail even if I liked parts of it), then there's no where you can hide. It also hurts when there's stronger political winds blowing in someone else's favor.

Drobiazko/Vanagas should have been at least third in the FD IMO (not counting Denkova/Staviski because it's been so long since I've seen their 2002 Olympics FD) even though all their FD pattern was just a giant circle going round over and over. They were an admirable team and I can see why they had tons of staunch supporters by 2002.

I do think this era was defined by the overly dramatic programs, torn shreds meant to resemble skirts, and a time where teams were trying their hardest to circumvent the discernible beat rule where they were trying to go back to Klimova/Ponomarenko-like 1992 programs except none of them were K/P. They also had those codified rules that stopped them from having the freedom to truly create artistically and aesthetically-pleasing and coherent programs like that. It was so bad that after 2001 Worlds, the ISU tried to force the teams to skate to "uplifting" music aka actually dance to a rhythm and beat to incorporate dancing in ice dance aka dance to music intended for dancing and not like Vivaldi's Four Seasons mixed with some Euro Trash beat that was so popular in the 2000s...and they're still trying through COP. I remember in that Ice Assets book or whatever, Barbara Fusar-Poli complained that A/P and L/A didn't follow the rules with their drama-heavy programs.

The era that followed was full of highs (some routines) and lows (results) for me. I fell in love with Denkova/Staviski but man once IJS was implemented and watching them in retrospect, they really had a hard time adapting to itemized elements where twizzles and lifts became quantified and way more important. I remember re-watching 2005 Worlds some time ago and being amazed that, in the FD, ONLY Belbin/Agosto and Delobel/Schoenfelder looked comfortable skating under IJS. Everyone else's execution of the elements were messy. DelSchoes Frida FD is so classic and I still rewatch it. That should have won the FD by some way.

By the 2006 Olympics, Navka/Kostomorov cleaned up their elements and that along by her gorgeous leg line and body type where the judges probably took marks off their closest competitor's shorter-limbed bodies were probably enough to justify them being the anointed gold medal winners when both B/K and L/A retired after 2003 Worlds - even though he's no great skater (totally eclipsed by the likes of Maxim Staviski who was an excellent dancer) and should shut up about Cizeron who has everything over him as a skater and a dancer.

Of the 2003-2006 era, the only teams I could say I loved were the two D/Ss...Denkova/Staviski and Delobel/Schoenfelder. I did re-watch Dubrieul/Lauzon and thought they were skating well enough for a medal. If we're honest, we could all probably see that they were technically better than B/K even back in the 1999-2002 Olympic cycle, but I could be wrong. Btw, wasn't there some heated discussion in the Ice Dance thread about where Marie-France got her idea to do "Cry Me a River" for one of her teams this season and whether she got it from a junior male skater last season? IMO, she and Patrice probably remembered that song when they competed against the Kerrs when they did a whole Justin Timberlake FD at 2005 Worlds which included that song.

I think Belbin/Agosto were helped by the fact that they did their IJS elements with confidence of young people, they had some charisma, and Denkova/Staviski had two blah programs following their brilliant Handel one, though D/S did win Worlds with one of them after Navka/Kostomorov were out of the way and it was safe to reward them again. That said, their rough execution of the elements at 2005 Worlds really helped the justify the season-and-a-half long politicking against them. B/A were somewhat lucky that happened and the judging system changed because it seemed like most of their programs was her skating on flats with Ben dragging her along the whole time while she and he sold face. Her lines were nothing to write home about either. Despite their crowd-leasing J.Lo Latin OD, I think that and their Flamenco Barbie FD showed they couldn't really dance either, but it's not as if their competitors were good actual dancers either. I still get nightmares at Navka's trying to bounce to that Austin Powers music change for their 2004 World Championship-winning FD thinking, is this the best ice dance has to offer in terms of their athletes' actual dance abilities? I obviously am not including the likes of Maxim Staviski in that statement.

Delobel/Schoenfelder taught me that I really love soft bent knees in ice dance which carried over to my love of the Shibs. DelSchoes were never rewarded properly in that era and just when things were going well with them, they had to get injured after 2008-2009 GPF and then her pregnancy meant they really were out of the running. Not that she should be sorry for having a child or anything.

I did not say much about 2005 Worlds and 2006 Olympic bronze medalists Grushina/Gonchorov and the less said the better. I guess I'll give them credit for having a solid and appropriate OD that played to their strengths at the 2006 Olympics and not falling like many of the other contenders.

This era also had incredibly busy looking programs where teams did skate to a rhythm and a beat but were prevented from actually dancing to them because there were just too many elements and requirements to reach levels the teams had to do under this code. I mean weren't there two twizzle sequences and two dance spins? Four leveled lifts? Level four required the woman to do Biellmans in both the lifts and the spins leading to nonsensical lift positions (like Navka's pained Carmen smile when she grabbed her blade for no reason during their curve lift) and very slow and painful looking spins where it seemed like these teams were spinning on molasses.

Talk about too much in too little time. None of the FDs at the 2006 Olympics were memorable except DelSchoes's clever masquerade mask glove program that had all that talking in different languages depending on the location of the competition, but even that wasn't as good as I remembered it. It was just good for the time.

I also remember truly liking Domnina/Shabalin at the 2006 Olympics but a fellow FSUer at the time rolled his eyes when I told him that because he was like watch this 10th place ranked team become gold medal contenders in 2010 just like Navka/Kostomorov, it's the same trek all Russian ice dance teams go through. Of course, he didn't predict Shabalin's severe injury, how much IJS would change ice dance and thus the rise of Marina/Igor with Virtue/Moir and Davis/White who grew up under IJS and did their elements way more comfortably and better than the 6.0 teams, and that they would move to Natalia Linichuk and how much that move would ruin Domnina/Shabalin's skating/packaging even though she seriously cleaned up Denkova/Staviski's skating and tried her best with Belbin/Agosto (while giving them some real loser programs).

 

[allezfred]

The key turning point in ice dance history was all three D/S teams being taken out by one thing or another and opening the door for Virtue/Moir and Davis/White

 

[Japanfan]

By the 2006 Olympics, Navka/Kostomorov cleaned up their elements and that along by her gorgeous leg line and body type where the judges probably took marks off their closest competitor's shorter-limbed bodies were probably enough to justify them being the anointed gold medal winners when both B/K and L/A retired after 2003 Worlds - even though he's no great skater (totally eclipsed by the likes of Maxim Staviski who was an excellent dancer) and should shut up about Cizeron who has everything over him as a skater and a dancer.

Body type should not determine medals, not that I deny that FS is particularly suited to athletes with particular body types.

I never cared for N/K. K was too much of a diva for me (never cared for Pasha, either). I understand that the 'diva' is part of the Russian (and other countries') ice dance tradition, and is much loved by many. And probably influences the judges. But it's not to my taste. For example, I far prefer Hubbell to Chock.

Mostly, Navka annoyed me. She always had backless costumes that screamed 'look at me, the long and lovely Nakvak'? Of course, why not? Why note showcase your strengths?

Even so, it just irks me.

 

[clairecloutier]

The early 2000s era of ice dance is my least favorite of all dance eras. The politics, the bad programs, the mediocre teams near the top. The 2002 Olympics was a fitting summation, with the near-disaster of Anissina/Peizerat almost losing the OGM to journeyman second-tier team Lobacheva/Averbukh (and bronze being the battle of questionable programs from FP/M and B/K). Anissina/Peizerat were for me the only memorable team of the era (I could never get into K/O’s OTT dramatics) and Bourne/Kraatz were a source of frustration as they could never seem to live up to their potential.

I would consider BTW 1998-2003 as one era (still part of 6.0) and 2004-06 as a separate period. IJS was first introduced in 2003 and fully in place in 2005. It had a big impact in dance right away.

 

[Kateri]

Level four required the woman to do Biellmans in both the lifts and the spins leading to nonsensical lift positions

Early '00s ice dance was a bit of a nightmare, but looking back, it's hilarious, and we got some great move nicknames from it. Remember that one year when the only way to get Lv4 in a lift was for the woman to be in an upside down split position? AKA, the "sniff lift"? Or that other classic, the "pornographic handbag"?

 

[DivaOnIce]

Thanks everyone for your input, such an interesting read!

So if you had to rank the couples behind Anissina/Peizerat according their best, in which order would you put them?

 

[zilam98]

a/p's carmina burana and their flamenco OD were the only ones I could really remember and cherish from the early 2000s

 

[Andora]

Near Perfect Post

I think that was about the best summation one could ask for.

The early 2000s era of ice dance is my least favorite of all dance eras. The politics, the bad programs, the mediocre teams near the top. The 2002 Olympics was a fitting summation, with the near-disaster of Anissina/Peizerat almost losing the OGM to journeyman second-tier team Lobacheva/Averbukh (and bronze being the battle of questionable programs from FP/M and B/K). Anissina/Peizerat were for me the only memorable team of the era (I could never get into K/O’s OTT dramatics) and Bourne/Kraatz were a source of frustration as they could never seem to live up to their potential.

I would consider BTW 1998-2003 as one era (still part of 6.0) and 2004-06 as a separate period. IJS was first introduced in 2003 and fully in place in 2005. It had a big impact in dance right away.

I agree, re: the early 2000s - both pre & post-IJS eras. But I guess another consideration into how much you like any era is somewhat coloured by how our respective favourites do.

That said, there were so few programs I really enjoyed after 1997, for some time. And even the programs I liked were often by skaters like D&V, D&Sx2, D&L-- underdogs, usually. I mean, by the time I really bought what Belbin & Agosto were selling in 2007 & 2008, they were falling in the standings. Hell, I preferred 99-2003 Navka & Partner (Interchangeable) to the messes that won them medals. Clearly, my opinion of that time is not impartial, at best.

Early '00s ice dance was a bit of a nightmare, but looking back, it's hilarious, and we got some great move nicknames from it. Remember that one year when the only way to get Lv4 in a lift was for the woman to be in an upside down split position? AKA, the "sniff lift"? Or that other classic, the "pornographic handbag"?

Yes, this - time + perspective finally puts this tacky era into the nostalgia territory. The programs, the ridiculous costumes, the 2002 travesty from top to bottom. It was like SLC was the peak of that era's trash-- but with an up-beat-- and ice dance had to massively evolve after it in order to survive. Like a repeat 1985-1988.

 

[miffy]

I used to love ice dance back then! Not anymore, now it’s all about pairs for me. CoP ruined dance for the most part.

A/P were amazing, TMITIM and CB especially.
I also loved D/V especially Spente Le Stelle and Quelques Cris. They really should have medalled in 2002 or at least placed 2nd or 3rd in the free.
I liked Grushina/Goncharov but once CoP kicked in they were way too slow on footwork. It wasn’t as noticeable before. Their OD’s were always good.
I was a huge L/T fan... they had gorgeous programmes and highlight moves. Just a shame how it all turned out...
I also liked some programmes by B/K and the odd one of FP/M, C/S and L/A.

It was a great time in ice dance!

 

[Finnice]

I loved loved loved Anissina/Peizerat. I remember very clearly the huge disappointment after the FD in Helsinki 1999. Krylova and Ovsiannikov were also excellent, but they did not mesmerize the audience like A/P did.
Both Drobiasko/Vanagas and Denkova/Staviski had the same problem: he was much stronger than she. But D/V had magic and Den/Sta so many incredible programs that it was a shame that the latter lose to Nav/Kos nad Especially Grush/Gons, who for me were almost painful to watch. Sorry, their fans!

But early 2000's ice dance was voidy. Nowadays it is clearly more sport, but sometimes I miss the crazy programs like the Kerrs and Zhigansina/Gazhi used to do...