How Do You Actually Recognize Jumps?

[missing]

I'm one of those people who can only tell rights from lefts if the thing I'm looking at is stationary and I have a chance to look at my own hands (right-ring, left-watch) for confirmation. I can mostly recognize lutzes by the curve of the back and axels by the angle of the shoulders and toe loops and salchows by their choreographic placement (triple-quad something/triple toe, triple-quad something/awkward hop/triple salchow). Very occasionally I spot the skater's body going rigid and correctly guess that a loop is on its way.

I understand how people recognize lips and flutzes (and underrotations) because they are generally done by skaters one doesn't like.

But for those of you who can watch a program, especially one you've never seen and there's no commentary to warn you or confirm what you just saw, how do you recognize jumps? Do you focus on the blades to see if there's an inside or outside edge right before takeoff? Do you simply know that the skater is jumping off a right leg or a left leg, the way I simply know that a piece of sweet potato caramel cheesecake in a display case will be delicious? Are there subtleties of body language that let you know what jump is about to happen? Or are there other hints or habits that enable you to recognize which triple-quad is oncoming?

What can you see that I don't know to look for?

 

[bardtoob]

I used to look at a skater's body positions more maybe 15 years ago. Now, I focus much more on a skaters feet during every element of a program, which is a good start.

 

[Vash01]

Watch the edges entering the jumps. That's the key.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I have to really pay attention. Axel is easy. Loop and Sal are easy....
Lutz is hard for me because that edge change can come so late. Often there is footwork into the flip...so that helps.

The better I get, the more I can discern....it kind of slows down as my eye gets better. It is hard business IMO

 

[meggonzo]

I understand how people recognize lips and flutzes (and underrotations) because they are generally done by skaters one doesn't like

Huh? I think most people recognize this because we can see an inside or outside edge, or you can see the blade hit the ice not totally backward.

I can identify the jumps by looking at the take-off.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I'm one of those people who can only tell rights from lefts if the thing I'm looking at is stationary and I have a chance to look at my own hands (right-ring, left-watch) for confirmation. I can mostly recognize lutzes by the curve of the back and axels by the angle of the shoulders and toe loops and salchows by their choreographic placement (triple-quad something/triple toe, triple-quad something/awkward hop/triple salchow). Very occasionally I spot the skater's body going rigid and correctly guess that a loop is on its way.

I understand how people recognize lips and flutzes (and underrotations) because they are generally done by skaters one doesn't like.

But for those of you who can watch a program, especially one you've never seen and there's no commentary to warn you or confirm what you just saw, how do you recognize jumps? Do you focus on the blades to see if there's an inside or outside edge right before takeoff? Do you simply know that the skater is jumping off a right leg or a left leg, the way I simply know that a piece of sweet potato caramel cheesecake in a display case will be delicious? Are there subtleties of body language that let you know what jump is about to happen? Or are there other hints or habits that enable you to recognize which triple-quad is oncoming?

What can you see that I don't know to look for?

Each jump has a specific entry edge. Some jumps have additional features, for example, a toe pick assist. The axel is different from all other jumps because it is the only jump with a forward entry and an uneven number of rotations. Here is an excellent video. There is a part 2 as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmpHezokjN0

 

[Ananas Astra]

Some of us are skating or used to skate themselves. At least for me, identifying jumps has never been an issue since I learned how to do them at a rather young age with all the quirks and perks that go with it.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Also keep in mind that the the landing leg/edge is always the same. Jump direction is clockwise or counterclockwise and most skaters jump counterclockwise and so whichever leg they must use (left vs. right) flows from that. i.e. Kaetlyn Osmond and Satoko Miyahara both jump in clockwise direction.

 

[meggonzo]

Miyahara jumps counter-clockwise. It's said that she would naturally jump clockwise, but needed to learn CCW for ice time and lessons, and supposedly this is why her jumps are so low.

 

[floskate]

I can often tell from the set up to a jump what they are going to do. Very rarely am I surprised by a jump that 'appears out of nowhere'. If not the set up then obviously the take off.

Occasionally a skaters take off would fool me. For example Eldredge and Lipinski's toe loops from a toe Walley take off - with the timing they used - looked like salchows. I knew they were toeloops because of what they had already attempted but my brain always said 'toeloops'.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Miyahara jumps counter-clockwise. It's said that she would naturally jump clockwise, but needed to learn CCW for ice time and lessons, and supposedly this is why her jumps are so low.

Correct re Satoko's jumping direction....humblest apologies. The fact that she can jump in both directions is mind boggling to me as a former skater.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I can often tell from the set up to a jump what they are going to do. Very rarely am I surprised by a jump that 'appears out of nowhere'. If not the set up then obviously the take off.

Occasionally a skaters take off would fool me. For example Eldredge and Lipinski's toe loops from a toe Walley take off - with the timing they used - looked like salchows. I knew they were toeloops because of what they had already attempted but my brain always said 'toeloops'.

And the salchow has no toe pick assist.

 

[BittyBug]

Axel - only jump with forward takeoff

Loop / Ritterberger - edge jump (no toe pick / vault assist) that takes off and lands on the same foot - setup is often rolling 3 turns or skater sitting into a deep back edge

Toe loop - vault assist - lands on opposite foot from toe pick take off

Salchow - edge jump - lands on opposite foot from edge take off - classic entrance is 3 turn

Flip - vault assist - lands on same foot as toe pick take off - jump flows in direction of entrance - this means the non-vaulting foot will be on an inside edge - classic entrance is 3 turn or mohawk

Lutz - a counter-rotational vault assisted jump - lands on same foot as takeoff but non-vaulting foot should be on an outside edge - generally the jump with the longest set up time as most skaters take time to set the outside edge (those that don't are usually flutzers trying to trick it)

 

[bardtoob]

Occasionally a skaters take off would fool me. For example Eldredge and Lipinski's toe loops from a toe Walley take off - with the timing they used - looked like salchows. I knew they were toeloops because of what they had already attempted but my brain always said 'toeloops'.

Like Midori's 2A

 

[maatTheViking]

what is 'vault assist'?

 

[bardtoob]

what is 'vault assist'?

When the skater picks with their toe (ie kicks the ice) when they jump.

 

[BittyBug]

Yes - when a skater uses their leg in a manner similar to how a pole vaulter uses the pole - dig in and launch. This is done by anchoring the vaulting leg in the ice with a toe pick and then pulling the body towards the anchor point.

 

[tony]

Occasionally a skaters take off would fool me. For example Eldredge and Lipinski's toe loops from a toe Walley take off - with the timing they used - looked like salchows. I knew they were toeloops because of what they had already attempted but my brain always said 'toeloops'.

Jenny Kirk may have been the worst offender of this. That one always tricked me a bit.

 

[Prancer]

Lutz is hard for me because that edge change can come so late.

Lutz is easy for me because of the counterrotation of the jump.

Loop and salchow are easy if you watch the entry.

Flip/toe can be tricky for me if I'm not paying close attention.

Lips and flutzes and under-rotations are sometimes hard to see, but generally, if you watch the skates, they are obvious more often than not. The idea that you see them in skaters you don't like is probably true for some, but for a lot of others, those are the things you see in the skaters you like; it breaks your heart or frustrates you endlessly, depending.

 

[DreamSkates]

Have these jumps always existed or has there been a progression or history of jump development - like the Tano Lutz was a variation of the lutz.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Have these jumps always existed or has there been a progression or history of jump development - like the Tano Lutz was a variation of the lutz.

The "tano" lutz is a reference to Brian Boitano of the USA. He was the first to raise one arm over the head on his triple lutz, as a feature in a competitve program in the 80s.

From Wikipedia:

Common jumps

The following are the six most common figure skating jumps in order from the least to the most difficult, as dictated by increasing point values under the ISU Judging system. All take off from a backwards entrance except the Axel:

• The toe loop jump is a toe jump that takes off from a back outside edge and lands on the same back outside edge (in other words, a toe-pick assisted loop jump, although the mechanics of the two jumps are very different). This is sometimes known in Europe as a cherry flip. Toe loops can be done immediately after other jumps in combinations. As solo jumps, they are most commonly entered from a three turn.
• The Salchow jump (pronounced "sal-kow"), named after its originator Ulrich Salchow, is an edge jump. It takes off from a back inside edge and lands on the back outside edge of the opposite foot. Salchows are most often preceded by a forward outside 3 turn, but a mohawk entrance is not unusual.
• The loop jump is another edge jump, launched from the back outside edge and landing on the same back outside edge. It is also known in Europe as the Rittberger after its inventor, Werner Rittberger. Loops can be done immediately after other jumps in combinations.
• The flip jump is a toe jump that takes off from a back inside edge and lands on the back outside edge of the opposite foot. A flip is usually preceded by a forward outside 3 turnor forward inside mohawk.
• The Lutz jump, named after its originator Alois Lutz, is a toe jump that takes off from a back outside edge and lands on the back outside edge of the opposite foot. The Lutz is a counter-rotated jump, meaning that the takeoff edge travels in a rotational direction opposite to which the skater rotates in the air and lands. Lutzes can often be identified by the long, backward diagonal glide preparation, though this is not necessary to do a Lutz.
• The Axel jump, named after its originator Axel Paulsen, is an edge jump launched on the forward outside edge and landed on the back outside edge of the opposite foot. Because it has a forward takeoff but lands backwards, an Axel actually has half an extra rotation (i.e. a single Axel is 1.5 revolutions, a double is 2.5 revolutions, a triple is 3.5 revolutions, etc.).

 

[bardtoob]

Have these jumps always existed or has there been a progression or history of jump development - like the Tano Lutz was a variation of the lutz.

A jump is defined by the edge of take off, direction of motion on the edge, and if they pick with their toe (ie kick the ice) on take off. Originally, jumps were supposed to be consider extensions of a compulsory step or turn, where the skate came off the ice, came down, then continued on the same path as it would have followed had the skate never left the ice.

The singles rotation versions of all jumps came into existence between about 1880 and 1930, with the single Flip having the most vague history so it is thought of as the newest; Many suspect the single Flip had been commonly performed much earlier than the 1930s but never given a standard name.

Variations in air position, while adding difficulty, are not considered "jump variations" per se because a jump is defined by the edge. So Tano Lutz or Rippon Lutz is a Lutz with a description of the air position, like a Split Lutz is a Lutz where the legs achieve a split position in the air. They all leave the ice from a backwards traveling outside edge with toe assist and any rotation in the air goes towards the inside edge of the same foot and outside edge of the opposite foot (counter rotation).

Per ISU rules, a jump can be landed on either foot, but the mechanics of jumping generally lead a coach to teach and a skater to prefer to land on the right back outside edge if the skater rotates counterclockwise or land on the left back outside edge if the skater rotates clockwise; rotating counterclockwise is most common among skaters.

-------------------

A Lutz leaves the ice from a backward traveling outside edge with a toe assist and counterrotates.

A Flip leaves the ice from a backward traveling inside edge with a toe assist and does not counterrotate.

A Salchow leaves the ice from a backward traveling inside edge without toe assist and does not counterrotate.

A Toe-Loop leaves the ice from a backward traveling outside edge with toe assist and does not counterrotate.

* There is a jump called a Toe Walley where the skater leaves the ice from a backward traveling inside edge and counterrotates. However, the ISU, in its infinite wisdom, chose in the 80s to consider the Toe Walley to be substantially the same as a Toe Loop.

An Axel leaves the ice from a forward traveling edge without toe assist. The standard Axel leaves from a forward outside edge.

----------------------------

)L( = left skate
)R( = right skate

)L( )R( = both skates are on the ice

Left Outside Edge -> )L( )R(
)L( )R( <- Right Outside Edge
)L( <- Left Inside Edge, Right Inside Edge -> )R(

If the skaters is on the outside edge of )L(, then the curve of their tracing, that is scratch on the ice, and direction of travel will look like this: )

If the skaters is on the inside edge of )L(, then the curve of their tracing and direction of travel will look like this: (

If the skaters is on the outside edge of )R(, then the curve of their tracing and direction of travel will look like this: (

If the skaters is on the inside edge of )R(, then the curve of their tracing and direction of travel will look like this: )

This is important because do you not actually need to see the blade to know the edge if you can see the tracing or see the way they are traveling while on one foot.

If a skater is on )L( or )R( but the direction of travel looks like: | , then the skaters usually gets an !, meaning the technical callers could not tell which edge the skater was on or the skater was on the flat; a flat is both edges at the same time.

If a skater says they are doing a Lutz thus on )L( but the direction of travel looks like: ( , then the skaters usually gets an e, meaning the technical callers observed a left inside edge instead of an outside edge. This is commonly referred to as a "Flutz". The term Flutz is relatively old; at least 40 years old.

If a skater says they are doing a Flip thus on )L( but the direction of travel looks like: ) , then the skaters usually gets an e, meaning the technical callers observed a left outside edge instead of an inside edge. This is commonly referred to as a "Lip". The term Lip is relatively new because it used to be considered generally harder to be on a good outside edge while jumping than be on a good inside edge, so there was less criticism from doing a Lip than doing a Flutz.

 

[Susan M]

Occasionally a skaters take off would fool me. For example Eldredge and Lipinski's toe loops from a toe Walley take off - with the timing they used - looked like salchows. .

I often thought that takeoff was part of the reason Eldredge never really perfected a quad toes. The turn-step-pick entrance looks to give the skaters much more spring.

 

[oleada]

Lutz is easy for me because of the counterrotation of the jump.

Loop and salchow are easy if you watch the entry.

Flip/toe can be tricky for me if I'm not paying close attention.

As a non skater, this is mor or less how I identify them.

Axel is easy because it's the only one that's forward. Loop - the feet loop before the entry, the Salchow has the swinging leg. Lutz has the counter rotation. Flip and toe loop are the hardest to tell apart but they usually "flip" right before they enter the jump.

 

[Aussie Willy]

If you skate and know the jumps you have no problem picking out what they are, regardless of the entry or technique.

The issue is when a skater does a really dodgy technique. I have seen a skater do a jump that could have been called as a lutz, flip or loop.

I have also called a flip jump that looked like a loop as a loop because the skater took off from the edge rather than the toe pick (I still clearly remember seeing it in my mind and it was in the PPC as a flip so it really stood out). Skater ended up losing the event on it. We didn't have video replay so the call stood. But the feedback to the coach was to fix up the skater's technique.

 

[Vagabond]

My one wish for the season is that, at the Olympics, some commentator makes some snooty remark about Miyahara's small jumps and that, immediately afterwards, she does a very high, perfectly rotated clockwise triple.

That's not too much to ask for now, is it?

 

[meggonzo]

If you skate and know the jumps you have no problem picking out what they are, regardless of the entry or technique.

The issue is when a skater does a really dodgy technique. I have seen a skater do a jump that could have been called as a lutz, flip or loop.

I have also called a flip jump that looked like a loop as a loop because the skater took off from the edge rather than the toe pick (I still clearly remember seeing it in my mind and it was in the PPC as a flip so it really stood out). Skater ended up losing the event on it. We didn't have video replay so the call stood. But the feedback to the coach was to fix up the skater's technique.

I'm trying to picture how you can be trying to do a flip and it ends up a loop? So the skater set down their picking foot and took off with that foot?

 

[Aussie Willy]

I'm trying to picture how you can be trying to do a flip and it ends up a loop? So the skater set down their picking foot and took off with that foot?

They put their toe back to dig in but then take off on a flat blade. They are not vaulting off the toe. The picking foot is the same as the take off foot for the loop.

 

[Areski]

I'm trying to picture how you can be trying to do a flip and it ends up a loop? So the skater set down their picking foot and took off with that foot?

I am not a figure skater but I think people oversimplify it.

 

[giselle23]

Axel - only jump with forward takeoff

Loop / Ritterberger - edge jump (no toe pick / vault assist) that takes off and lands on the same foot - setup is often rolling 3 turns or skater sitting into a deep back edge

Toe loop - vault assist - lands on opposite foot from toe pick take off

Salchow - edge jump - lands on opposite foot from edge take off - classic entrance is 3 turn

Flip - vault assist - lands on same foot as toe pick take off - jump flows in direction of entrance - this means the non-vaulting foot will be on an inside edge - classic entrance is 3 turn or mohawk

Lutz - a counter-rotational vault assisted jump - lands on same foot as takeoff but non-vaulting foot should be on an outside edge - generally the jump with the longest set up time as most skaters take time to set the outside edge (those that don't are usually flutzers trying to trick it)

This isn't going to help anyone not already knowledgeable about jumps identify anything. Here is something easier:

Loop-take-off from foot crossed over other foot. Jump goes straight up and lands on same foot.

Flip: Usually a 3-turn entry; forward outside to backward inside edge. Look at Medvedeva's and you will see it right away. Can also be from a mohawk but not usually. I think Mao used that entry.

Lutz--easy to see if from a long back outside edge, like Gracie's. Can also be from a step-over. A little harder to id. Look for the bend toward the outside edge. See Yuna Kim's for an example.

Toe loop--from an inside 3-turn with a toe assist. I know it when I see it.

Salchow-the one that isn't one of the others . Sometimes it looks almost like a forward entry. I'll let someone else handle this one.