Gymnastics News #21 - Tumbling on to Tokyo

FiveRinger

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@VIETgrlTerifa I had not been aware that a skill is co-named the Chow/Khorkina.
That's funny.....a skill named after two athletes that couldn't be more opposite. One being so humble that her husband hadn't even seen her Olympic medals and the other one whose ego is so large I don't think that there is a stadium that has been built that is big enough for it....lol
 

bardtoob

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Tatiana Gutsu's beam routine would still get a D-score of 5.7:

Very nice.

It always begs the comparison with Miller.


Tatiana outscores Miller, 5.7 to 5.3. However, "the Miller" gets no credit while Gutsus gets credit for the "way ahead of its time" back tuck full.

Shannon was a little clearer, but that was always Team Shannon's angle.

Now that I am a little more impartial, I realize I used to prefer Shannon's form to Gutsus' form because I thought it was cleaner. However, I now think I just used to prefer Shannon's prissy flair (? flare?), pickies out and wrists flicked, as opposed to Gutsus streamlined lines.
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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I admire Gutsu's difficulty, but with the way that FX and VT went, I think Miller should have won. Plus, for the time, Miller was also doing routines that were more difficult that required. Just not in the way Gutsu's beam was. Miller didn't have the amplitude or natural power but she made it up in form and technical difficulty. I don't get the 1992 scoring system because I think the vast majority of gymnasts were doing routines that were technically out of 10.00 but they were only saving scores in the 9.9 range for a select few that the judges chose and there seemed to be an unwritten rule that gymnasts had to do routines far more difficult than the rules actually required to get consideration. I read that the compulsory judging was infamously out-of-whack too even though I truly believe gymnastics could use compulsories today just to hammer in basics and form AND to give us variety in a competition so we're not seeing the same routine potentially 4 times.
 

bardtoob

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I think Miller should have won.
And Michelle should have beaten Tara :D

I read that the compulsory judging was infamously out-of-whack too even though I truly believe gymnastics could use compulsories today just to hammer in basics and form AND to give us variety in a competition so we're not seeing the same routine potentially 4 times.
1) Like how the skate order used to influence judging, like it did with Michelle and Tara :D
2) Ummm . . . it would just result in a prescribed routine that 30+ gymnasts do instead of a defacto routine that 25+ gymnasts do :D
 

VIETgrlTerifa

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And Michelle should have beaten Tara :D



1) Like how the skate order used to influence judging, like it did with Michelle and Tara :D
2) Ummm . . . it would just result in a prescribed routine that 30+ gymnasts do instead of a defacto routine that 25+ gymnasts do :D
I meant from one individual gymnast. From Preliminaries to Event finals, we can see a gymnast do 4 of the same VT, UB, BB, and FX in one competition. At least we'd get some good choreography out of it...assuming it'd be of the same quality of past compulsory routines. Plus, I love comparing apples-to-apples, which is why I also love compulsory dances in ice dance.
 

canbelto

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I admire Gutsu's difficulty, but with the way that FX and VT went, I think Miller should have won. Plus, for the time, Miller was also doing routines that were more difficult that required. Just not in the way Gutsu's beam was. Miller didn't have the amplitude or natural power but she made it up in form and technical difficulty. I don't get the 1992 scoring system because I think the vast majority of gymnasts were doing routines that were technically out of 10.00 but they were only saving scores in the 9.9 range for a select few that the judges chose and there seemed to be an unwritten rule that gymnasts had to do routines far more difficult than the rules actually required to get consideration. I read that the compulsory judging was infamously out-of-whack too even though I truly believe gymnastics could use compulsories today just to hammer in basics and form AND to give us variety in a competition so we're not seeing the same routine potentially 4 times.
The issue with the 1992 scoring was that if you took a look at the difficulty of the routines and the execution, all 7 former USSR gymnasts probably should have moved to the All-Around final. They were just that good and that consistent (well, except for Gutsu's fall from the beam but ...) Tatiana Lysenko was another gymnast who had routines way ahead of her time in difficulty.

But they wanted to make the team and AA competition competitive for different countries so there was a lot of weirdness going on. Looking back there's no way Kim Zmeskal's beam routine should have had the same potential max score as, say, Gutsu or Miller's. Svetlana Boguinskaya was another one whose routines had by then become somewhat watered down. But she was a vet, and they wanted to hold her place, so to speak. Roza Galieva's routines were more difficult than Boguinskaya's, but as the vet and the more experienced gymnast the judges held down Galieva's scores. But really it was a result of there just being too much talent BUT with a few gymnasts and specialists having EXTREMELY difficult routines and the judges being inconsistent about who got credit for the extra difficulty and who didn't.

But given that now we know Vitaly Scherbo sexually assaulted Tatiana Gutsu I'm glad Tatiana got a moment of happiness. She's had a really rough life since.
 

canbelto

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Like for instance there's no way this beam routine:


Should have had the same 10.0 value as Gutsu or Miller's beam routines, which had more difficult acro series, more difficult transitions, a much harder dismount, etc. But back then since Kim Z. was considered a "contender" had she hit all her routines she might have been in the running for a gold.

As it turns out it's ironic that this fiercely contested result was between two gymnasts who pushed the envelope of difficulty and probably would have done better in the CoP system where that extra difficulty would have been rewarded. So I see the 1992 Olympic AA as not a mistake in judging, but a result of a judging system not really equipped for two gymnasts who added so much difficulty to their routines.
 

Michalle

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What's a good Lyssenko routine to watch to get an idea of her gymnastics? I watched her back "in the day" but don't really remember much.
 

Jimena

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But given that now we know Vitaly Scherbo sexually assaulted Tatiana Gutsu I'm glad Tatiana got a moment of happiness. She's had a really rough life since.
Really? Wow. I had no idea. When did that come out? I used to love Vitaly's gymnastics.
 

Jimena

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Gutsu called out a few people. Was there any fallout from this in the press at all? It seems that Gutsu made the accusation and everything went quiet. That's really awful.
 

canbelto

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Uh yes ... there was fallout against her.


Some choice quotes:

Lydia Ivanova, a coach of the Soviet Union team at the time, has also questioned the "immodesty" of Gutsu and speculated that "good" athletes would be too tired to have "sexual urges" mid-competition.
"I do not want to talk in details about this and I think that this unseemly," she told 360tv.ru.
"Either she wants to earn money on this or get media attention, nothing more than that.
"It was unpleasant to suddenly hear about it, I’ve never seen any immodesty from this girl before.
"If there is a good, strong training session, what kind of sexual urges can there be?"
Antonina Koshel, an Olympic team champion at Munich 1972 and now deputy director of the Belarussian Gymnastics Federation, also protested Scherbo's innocence.
"I don’t believe that this could have happened, that Vitaly is capable of such a thing," she told R-Sport.
"He’s the kind of a guy who couldn’t have offended someone like that.
"I don’t believe that she could be silent for 27 years and didn’t share it with anyone.
"Especially since she was a 15-year-old girl - that she didn’t share it, didn’t cry on anyone’s shoulder."
I can't.
 

Jimena

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I'm thinking about fall out in the US. Scherbo and Sharipov are in the US and have been for a long time.

Other than Aly Raisman tweeting her support for Gutsu, I didn't find anything else.
 

canbelto

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Vitaly Scherbo didn't really cover himself in glory in this interview, and neither does his mom:
 

Tesla

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Vitaly Scherbo didn't really cover himself in glory in this interview, and neither does his mom:
That is so gross. What a disgusting man.
 

bardtoob

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But back then since Kim Z. was considered a "contender" had she hit all her routines she might have been in the running for a gold.
The Karolyis also liked safe routines with only enough difficulty to be internationally competitive but with as little risk and, consequently, as little innovation as possible.

Like for instance there's no way this beam routine:

It is interesting that the upgrade mentioned by the commentator is actually something similar to what Nadia was doing in 1979 at the beginning of her beam routine but never did constantly clean and removed it in 1980.


However, she did pull it off at 1979 Euros.

 
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rhapsody

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Uh yes ... there was fallout against her.


Some choice quotes:



I can't.
Dominique Moceanu, "survivor spokeswoman extraordinaire", also said she was lying because she personally knows Rustam and he would NEVER allow Scherbo to do that.

:rolleyes:

Believe all survivors, my ass. Until a friend of hers is accused and then she back peddles.
 

canbelto

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Dominique Moceanu, "survivor spokeswoman extraordinaire", also said she was lying because she personally knows Rustam and he would NEVER allow Scherbo to do that.

:rolleyes:

Believe all survivors, my ass. Until a friend of hers is accused and then she back peddles.
Gutsu's sudden retirement from the sport makes sense now. It's too bad because she was so talented. But I don't blame her for wanting to get away from the sport.

And Dominique's comments are HORRIBLE. If you weren't in the room with Vitaly and Tatiana, then you should STFU. Really.
 

skatfan

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Ok Terin Humphrey put out a doozy of a statement today:


Short Version: I've given everything and been abused; I know where bodies are buried and I'm willing to talk.
 

skatfan

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I hope Terin tells all, and I don't care if it is out of spite.
Agreed. It's so drama-filled now - USA gymnastics keep ejecting people who then are very clearly intent on spilling on all the dirt on them. It must still be a cesspool of crazy there. Why the USOC hasn't pulled their Olympic authorization can only be explained by a speculation that they are fearful of who will come after them.
 

elka_sk8

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Here is one of her beam routines:


She was a very inconsistent gymnast.

This inspired me to rewatch a few of her routines and I came across this interview from a few years ago. I had no idea she eventually became a lawyer! And it was interesting to hear more about how she got started and moved up the ranks.

 

bardtoob

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This inspired me to rewatch a few of her routines and I came across this interview from a few years ago. I had no idea she eventually became a lawyer! And it was interesting to hear more about how she got started and moved up the ranks.

Interesting.
 

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