Gymnastic news #22 - Tokyo or bust

[Erin]

I clearly never have had what it takes to be a gymnast. I would have quit the sport after the first day.

You could surprise yourself. I don’t think of myself of particularly tough but I survived five years of competitive gymnastics. Some coaches are better/nicer than others. Some days are better than others. I will say that even some of the ones I really liked had some behaviour that would probably be considered borderline abusive today, mostly related to pushing me to do skills I was really scared of. I have memories of being left for hours on my own at an event until I would do a skill that I was scared to do. I get what the coaches were trying to do, and they were probably right that I was capable of doing the skill, but I don’t think that was the most effective way to get me to do it, for a multitude of reasons. The other thing most of them did, even the good ones, was assume anytime you were injured that you were faking it to get out of doing something. Not to the extent of Haney, but far more than anyone ever actually faked an injury.

Now, the most abusive coach I had, I only lasted about three months with, but I was older and had a lot of injuries...if I had been younger and healthier, I might have put up with it. As it was, I continued coaching at that gym, so she became my boss instead of my coach, so it’s not like I got rid of her entirely anyway. The thing was that even she could be really nice sometimes...you just never knew when she was going to turn on you. But when people ask why gymnasts put up with it, I think that’s part of it. The coaches often aren’t awful 100% of the time, so you convince yourself that it is going to be OK or that it’s your own fault.

 

[ilovepaydays]

Slightly off-topic, but has anyone else listened to McKayla Maroney’s singles? They just came out in the last couple of months.

McKayla Maroney - on Spotify

As much as I’m happy for her that she’s gotten her music out there - it, um, needs some work.

Is/has she been doing anything else professionally? Going to school? I can’t tell from her Instagram.

 

[FiveRinger]

Slightly off-topic, but has anyone else listened to McKayla Maroney’s singles? They just came out in the last couple of months.

McKayla Maroney - on Spotify

As much as I’m happy for her that she’s gotten her music out there - it, um, needs some work.

Is/has she been doing anything else professionally? Going to school? I can’t tell from her Instagram.

I couldn’t bring myself to post about it, let alone listen to it.

FYI, I remember her saying in an interview a few years ago that she had no intention of going to college, that after her experiences, it was too structured.

 

[ilovepaydays]

I couldn’t bring myself to post about it, let alone listen to it.

FYI, I remember her saying in an interview a few years ago that she had no intention of going to college, that after her experiences, it was too structured.

Hmm. I’m wondering if one of the silver linings of this current health crisis is that education (in general, but especially at the vocational/university level) will be forced to change with the times and be delivered in a less structured format.

I’m now wondering if McKayla is going get any concerts - especially if she’s still living in Southern California.

 

[bardtoob]

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[bardtoob]

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[Bellanca]

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Omg — Simone! How adorable!

 

[bardtoob]

intlgymnast
1991 World Pro Meet - Eberhard Geinger (FRG) HB

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Despite the preview, the link goes to Geinger, 15 years out of competition, putting to his feet a full twisting double back dismount from the high bar in slacks and a tie.

 

[VGThuy]

I was re-watching Shannon Miller's 1996 Nationals routines and she was seriously on-point there except for beam. I can't help but wonder if the injury she sustained in-between Nationals and Trials messed up her progress for Atlanta. It seemed as though she was on trek to performing higher difficulty better than she had in her career until that injury pre-Trials happened. By Atlanta, it looked like she was still catching up to where she was at Nationals, except she really got it for beam. It was like she could have used another month or so.

 

[Choupette]

I was re-watching Shannon Miller's 1996 Nationals routines and she was seriously on-point there except for beam. I can't help but wonder if the injury she sustained in-between Nationals and Trials messed up her progress for Atlanta. It seemed as though she was on trek to performing higher difficulty better than she had in her career until that injury pre-Trials happened. By Atlanta, it looked like she was still catching up to where she was at Nationals, except she really got it for beam. It was like she could have used another month or so.

The wrist injury? She started experiencing pain months before, as far back as January IIRC from the book her mother wrote. I've read it little by little through Google books years ago, so I may not have the details exactly right, but I definitely remember rolling my eyes at how her mother seemed to think of it as bad luck that she couldn't compete at trials, while I was thinking to myself that if she had had warning signs since January, maybe it meant she should have rested it sooner?

On one hand, I get that pushing through injuries to train hard faster than recommended may have worked in her favor at other times in her career (like the elbow injury in the spring of 1992, maybe?). On the other hand, if you persist to train on a injury, well, it shouldn't exactly be a shock if you only make it worse.

I still can't believe the things her mother admitted to in that book. She must have been completely intoxicated by the gymnastics culture because she clearly didn't realize how crazy some choices she described looked to outsiders.

 

[FiveRinger]

The wrist injury? She started experiencing pain months before, as far back as January IIRC from the book her mother wrote. I've read it little by little through Google books years ago, so I may not have the details exactly right, but I definitely remember rolling my eyes at how her mother seemed to think of it as bad luck that she couldn't compete at trials, while I was thinking to myself that if she had had warning signs since January, maybe it meant she should have rested it sooner?

On one hand, I get that pushing through injuries to train hard faster than recommended may have worked in her favor at other times in her career (like the elbow injury in the spring of 1992, maybe?). On the other hand, if you persist to train on a injury, well, it shouldn't exactly be a shock if you only make it worse.

I still can't believe the things her mother admitted to in that book. She must have been completely intoxicated by the gymnastics culture because she clearly didn't realize how crazy some choices she described looked to outsiders.

I remember Tim and Elfie saying that she had tendonitis in her wrists. I guess they didn't think it could get any worse, so why not train on it. Didn't the same think happen to Kim Z? Except I remember Bela made a lot of noise aabout her being lazy and that her injury was due to her being overweight. The pig.

@Choupette what else did Shannon's mom say? I don't remember seeing or hearing from either of her parents at all during her career, not even a glimpse of them in the audience. I always thought that that was odd.

 

[VGThuy]

I guess they figured Nunno did enough publicity for Shannon for them to add any more, . Seriously though, I remember seeing them at the stands once or twice and there was that fluff piece about Shannon’s home life showing how she still lived at home and went to public school and where her father, a professor of Physics, would use her gymnastics videos as examples for his lectures.

 

[pollyanna]

Simone Biles headlines 2019 World Gymnastics Championships Week on Olympic Channel

Simone Biles‘ latest record-shattering feats will be featured on the Olympic Channel as part of 2019 World Gymnastics Championships Week starting Monday night.

Olympic Channel will air one finals session per night from last October’s worlds in Stuttgart, Germany through Saturday. A marathon of all six finals sessions airs Sunday at 10 a.m.

All coverage — more than 30 hours total — will also stream on NBCSports.com/live and the NBC Sports app for subscribers.

 

[canbelto]

I guess they figured Nunno did enough publicity for Shannon for them to add any more, . Seriously though, I remember seeing them at the stands once or twice and there was that fluff piece about Shannon’s home life showing how she still lived at home and went to public school and where her father, a professor of Physics, would use her gymnastics videos as examples for his lectures.

I think Shannon said in an interview that after the 92 Olympics she actually had a stalker who sent her death threats and so her family kept a low profile.

 

[Choupette]

I remember Tim and Elfie saying that she had tendonitis in her wrists. I guess they didn't think it could get any worse, so why not train on it. Didn't the same think happen to Kim Z? Except I remember Bela made a lot of noise aabout her being lazy and that her injury was due to her being overweight. The pig.

@Choupette what else did Shannon's mom say? I don't remember seeing or hearing from either of her parents at all during her career, not even a glimpse of them in the audience. I always thought that that was odd.

I'll quote myself from the Larry Nassar thread in January 2018:

Years ago, through free pages on Google Books, I read most of the book written by Shannon Miller's mother after the 1996 Olympics.

At one point, she describes how she noticed her daughter was missing a basic and simple required element in her floor routine, and she feared telling Shannon's coach Steve Nunno. After some thinking, her solution was to go through assistant coach Peggy Liddick.

When Shannon was really young, perhaps 11 or 12 years old IIRC, while she was already throwing crazy difficulty few gymnasts her age were even attempting and certainly no other American, she struggled with consistency (big surprise!). In response, Nunno would threatened to remove her from competitions. Shannon got extremely anxious as a result. Her mother's first solution? Have Shannon meet with a priest to learn how to cope with that stress. She did eventually come to the conclusion that she really should talk to the coach, and did so, but not immediately.

I couldn't believe either that she would write such things in a book. One would think reading it that it was Nunno who was paying Miller's parents and that they were depending on his money, not that it really was the other way around and that they had hired him to train their daughter. And those weren't the only absurdities I noticed.

I should probably add that I am aware Nunno held some power over the Millers: if Shannon had wanted to switch coach, she would very likely have had to move away from home, with all the implications we can all imagine, but still.

I also saw glimpses of Miller's parents, either in fluff pieces or in the stands, but that was rare. I wouldn't necessarily read too much into whose parents were shown on TV because it's not like it was their or their daughter's choice, so I'll just say that it seemed healthier to me as opposed to someone like Moceanu's father who seemed to crave the attention.

All in all, as Dawes expressed in a link above in this thread, it does look like it can take years if not decades to some gymnasts to become fully aware of the unhealthy culture of the sport. When asked about it while Nassar was all over the news, Shannon said that it was very different in her times, that gymnasts slept in their own bed. But aside from her own coach yelling at her and kicking her out of the gym, I know she witnessed specific examples of Karolyi's abuse while he was with the national team in the 1990s (like when he restricted her own food intake in Barcelona until the compulsory, while Nunno and Liddick couldn't be around for some reason). In her mind she may still not be lying though, who knows if she doesn't genuinely struggles to see the culture for what it was. I've read Rachel Haines' book and she still has a way to go, too (but obviously she's still much younger).

As for Karolyi, Zmeskal's wrist injury wasn't tendinitis; I think it was a distal growth plate injury? She was also very much bothered by an ankle injury that she sustained or that got worse between the trials and the Games. I still can't believe how stupid Karolyi was, not just because of his abuse but for his lack of care for his gymnasts health leading to the Olympic games. With her 1992 optional floor at trials, Zmeskal would very possibly have at least grabbed a medal on floor at the Olympics. There is no excuse for Moceanu's stress fracture in 1996, and in 2000, Morgan White was also injured after her coach made her gymnasts train like Karolyi wanted to the letter. What's the use of training gymnasts if they can't keep being as successful prior to their most important competition?

 

[Choupette]

I think Shannon said in an interview that after the 92 Olympics she actually had a stalker who sent her death threats and so her family kept a low profile.

From her book, that took place in 1994. He was at Nationals that year.

 

[VGThuy]

I think one trick for abusive cultures is to give gymnasts who survive it and who’ve actually had success to look back at that abuse with a sense of pride. As if they went to war as marines and came back with medals of honor and tales to tell,

 

[Choupette]

I think one trick for abusive cultures is to give gymnasts who survive it and who’ve actually had success to look back at that abuse with a sense of pride. As if they went to war as marines and came back with medals of honor and tales to tell,

Yes, that's very possible. I sensed something more or less like that in Haines' book. Her message was like "ultimately, gymnastics made me who I am", and then she listed qualities that I don't doubt for a second that she possesses. I just think she could enjoy those same qualities without having had to endure such horrible physical pain and abuse.

I've also wondered whether those who have had success may also fear somewhat that if the fans knew what really went on, then they would pay more attention to that as opposed to what they achieved, as in "well, that success isn't worth it anyway".

 

[Erin]

As for Karolyi, Zmeskal's wrist injury wasn't tendinitis; I think it was a distal growth plate injury? She was also very much bothered by an ankle injury that she sustained or that got worse between the trials and the Games. I still can't believe how stupid Karolyi was, not just because of his abuse but for his lack of care for his gymnasts health leading to the Olympic games. With her 1992 optional floor at trials, Zmeskal would very possibly have at least grabbed a medal on floor at the Olympics. There is no excuse for Moceanu's stress fracture in 1996, and in 2000, Morgan White was also injured after her coach made her gymnasts train like Karolyi wanted to the letter. What's the use of training gymnasts if they can't keep being as successful prior to their most important competition?

I believe Zmeskal's injury in Barcelona was also a stress fracture. I agree that these examples show the failures of the Karolyi's methods. Although Zmeskal did have the highest score out of anyone in team optionals in Barcelona. She needed it to be able to make the AA competition ahead of Strug, but it's a shame she couldn't repeat it a couple days later. Making the grossly simplifying assumption that scores were consistent across the two nights, her score from team optionals would have tied her with Milosovici for bronze. But it seems she really just had one good night in her in Barcelona. I would have loved to see her in her Olympic Trials form, where she really was spectacular on floor and vault.

 

[Garden Kitty]

Nice article about Nastia Liukin and her charitable fund

https://www.teamusa.org/News/2020/May/22/Through-Charitable-Fund-Nastia-Liukin-Seeks-To-Help-Gyms-Affected-By-COVID19?fbclid=IwAR31gPDbaVcgE2H30x4ZTmZyn2ny0MEri9fd34kmim-ZjoIAnR6wLAGPG9U

 

[FiveRinger]

Sadly, a lot of this makes sense. Nunno worked with Bela before he got his own gym. Mary Lee Tracy was Morgan White's coach during the 2000 Olympics. MLT explained her ignorance and her desire to be like the Karolyis at that time, since they were gymnastics royalty. I believe her when she says that she is sorry (see above posts regarding Gymcastic podcast).

The fact that Shannon's mother was afraid to speak to her kid's coach about an injury speaks volumes. How is a kid supposed to be her own advocate if her own parents can't demonstrate that? I know that Shannon was a quiet kid and Nunno used to always say that she let her gymnastics speak for her. But now I'm wondering, and if I have time I might go back and watch, if Shannon was afraid of him. I'd almost bet she was terrified of him since her own mother was.

Side note: I wish that someone would hire Shannon to do gymnastics commentary. She was marvelous during 2012 in London. I'd support her replacing Nastia and/or Tim.

Dominique Moceanu gave me all of the feels during her run up to Atlanta. After everything blew up around her, and everything that I know now (I read half of her book and couldn't finish it) I have so much respect and admiration for her. She was surrounded by abusive tyrants, at home and at the gym. I'm so glad that she's found peace and is happy.

 

[Choupette]

The fact that Shannon's mother was afraid to speak to her kid's coach about an injury speaks volumes. How is a kid supposed to be her own advocate if her own parents can't demonstrate that? I know that Shannon was a quiet kid and Nunno used to always say that she let her gymnastics speak for her. But now I'm wondering, and if I have time I might go back and watch, if Shannon was afraid of him. I'd almost bet she was terrified of him since her own mother was.

To clarify, she was afraid of telling Nunno Shannon was anxious over his threats of preventing her from competing and over Shannon's floor routine that was missing a required element. As far as I could tell reading the book, he was well aware of her wrist injury, as was her mother. I have not read anything over Shannon being afraid telling him she was injured. That doesn't mean it couldn't have happened, obviously.

I found a bit of information regarding Nunno's coaching at the time: Little Girls Lost? : Young gymnasts and figure skaters dazzle with their stunts and lithe bodies, but for some, the price of success includes lifelong health problems, psychological trauma--or simply the loss of childhood.

With two daughters at the Oklahoma gym run by Steve Nunno--Miller’s coach--Jo was in a position to see firsthand the harsh methods used in the name of winning.

One of Jo’s daughters is still with the sport, at another gym, but the mother asked to remain anonymous because “Steve wields a lot of power in this sport. If he knew it was me, my daughter might as well quit.” At Nunno’s gym, Jo said, her other daughter received a “never-ending” stream of verbal abuse. The girls were called lazy, fat cows, stupid and gutless. One coach told Jo she wanted the girls to fear her more than they feared a risky move.

Side note: I wish that someone would hire Shannon to do gymnastics commentary. She was marvelous during 2012 in London. I'd support her replacing Nastia and/or Tim.

She may not be so marvelous if NBC directs her commentary to be like this or like that. I know Elfi Schlegel got a lot of criticisms, but she was good on CBC IMO.

Dominique Moceanu gave me all of the feels during her run up to Atlanta. After everything blew up around her, and everything that I know now (I read half of her book and couldn't finish it) I have so much respect and admiration for her. She was surrounded by abusive tyrants, at home and at the gym. I'm so glad that she's found peace and is happy.

I couldn't stand the hype around her in 1996. I was very relieved to learn later that at least, she sincerely loved the sport, and that at least until she joined the Karolyis, she enjoyed going to the gym very much. It's too bad Karolyi fired Alexandrov, who she said was good at making sure she didn't injure herself.

 

[canbelto]

Interview with Mattie Larson.

Mattie Larson: A TSL Interview

Mattie Larson impacted the world at the sentencing hearing for Larry Nassar with her emotionally intelligent, honest and courageous victim impact statement. ...

youtu.be

there are some truly disturbing stories about the ranch and Marta.

 

[Bellanca]

Jordyn Wieber's coach John Geddert hammered Dominique Moceanu via Twitter when she was speaking out against Béla and Márta Károlyi leading up to the 2012 Olympic Games in London. He was awful, a complete condescending jerk toward her - but look who is laughing now.

I distinctly remember Geddert mugging for the camera, making sure he was in every single camera shot whenever Jordyn was competing and notably when the ladies were qualifying to make the Olympic team. Every time it was Jordyn's turn, John positioned himself to make sure the camera was on him, too. It was so obvious and completely obnoxious. The guy was full of himself. It is not unusual for coaches to be in a shot or two, but John was a constant presence. Even my colleagues with whom I covered those Olympics (and the meets prior to) commented on it. IMO, Geddert wanted to be one of those coaches who was instantly recognized for who he was and not so much for who he was coaching. That sticks with me - and so everything we have learned since then is not too surprising.

Eta: Geddert also enjoyed showing off his Olympic tattoo... This guy was a piece of work.

 

[canbelto]

Mattie Larson talks about the disastrous 2010 worlds. Here's a clip of her reception once she finished floor. Holy shit at Rebecca Bross side-swiping and glaring at her:

2010 Worlds WAG Team Final NBC

The credit of this video goes to the original uploader. I don't own any credits to this video. Make sure to like and subscribe for more content!

youtu.be

 

[FiveRinger]

All of these coaches that get paid for terrorizing these kids need their asses kicked. There’s no nice way to say it.

Shannon and her mom should not have been afraid to voice any concerns to Nunno, whether it be about a floor element, an injury, or whether or not she got a paper cut doing her homework and the chalk made it burn. They were paying him, for God’s sake. He ruled by fear and intimidation, which is obvious by the remarks that Jo made in reference to him that @Choupette posted. BTW, have we seen him with any world class gymnasts since Shannon retired? Legit question. I honestly don’t know.

I really enjoyed Dominique’s gymnastics both before and after Atlanta. The media’s treatment of her was just brutal.

Rebecca Bross snubbing Mattie like that was horrible, but not surprising. Liukin was Rebecca’s coach. In that interview, Mattie said Valeri Liukin ignored her after that performance for the rest of the trip and that her own coach left her at the airport to find her own way home. F*****s. But Rebecca always looked like she had swallowed a cup of vinegar after sucking on a lemon wedge. She always looked totally unapproachable.

 

[Bellanca]

All of these coaches that get paid for terrorizing these kids need their asses kicked. There’s no nice way to say it.

Right on, right on!

This abusive behavior should not have
been tolerated in the first place. Going forward, gymnasts and their parents should not have to worry or be fearful of this happening again. Not for one second.

 

[VGThuy]

I believe Zmeskal's injury in Barcelona was also a stress fracture. I agree that these examples show the failures of the Karolyi's methods. Although Zmeskal did have the highest score out of anyone in team optionals in Barcelona. She needed it to be able to make the AA competition ahead of Strug, but it's a shame she couldn't repeat it a couple days later. Making the grossly simplifying assumption that scores were consistent across the two nights, her score from team optionals would have tied her with Milosovici for bronze. But it seems she really just had one good night in her in Barcelona. I would have loved to see her in her Olympic Trials form, where she really was spectacular on floor and vault.

The part that really gets me is that the failures of the Karyoli method lasted till 2012 and I’m being generous. Sure the centralization and training may have created the depth and readiness, but the overtraining and the crazy amount of injuries all happened under their watch. There’s no reason why the 2000, 2004, and 2008 Olympic teams should have been as beaten up as they were. In fact even outside of the Olympics, the whole cycle had world teams full of injuries and substitutions. 1993-1996 was also bad with so many injuries and withdrawals, but they lucked out that the quad’s best gymnasts aka the Magnificent Seven somehow paced themselves to be healthy or healthy enough for the Olympics when so many of them had seriously bad injuries beforehand throughout those four years.

I stupidly gave Marta credit for the 2012 team being relatively healthy (though they were not) but I think it’s just being grateful that they competed well and wanting to believe things got better. Some of that was goodwill from 2011 Worlds even though Alicia got injured there. In retrospect, I think 2016 got lucky that Marta was probably being less whatever it is she is and allowed the personal coaches to take more command. You saw it with Biles with how her coach really drove her trajectory towards 2016 and prepared her mentally as well by giving her perspective and making sure she knew she wouldn’t be a failure if she failed to live up to other people’s expectations because she told Simone that was their problem, not hers.

 

[barbk]

Nice story on Suni Lee: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/22/...ck&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=Sports

Some sad info about her dad's paralysis right before nationals. She's got a lot of mental toughness to have made it through the competition after that.

I hadn't realized she was of Hmong background.

 

[canbelto]

The part that really gets me is that the failures of the Karyoli method lasted till 2012 and I’m being generous. Sure the centralization and training may have created the depth and readiness, but the overtraining and the crazy amount of injuries all happened under their watch. There’s no reason why the 2000, 2004, and 2008 Olympic teams should have been as beaten up as they were. In fact even outside of the Olympics, the whole cycle had world teams full of injuries and substitutions. 1993-1996 was also bad with so many injuries and withdrawals, but they lucked out that the quad’s best gymnasts aka the Magnificent Seven somehow paced themselves to be healthy or healthy enough for the Olympics when so many of them had seriously bad injuries beforehand throughout those four years.

I stupidly gave Marta credit for the 2012 team being relatively healthy (though they were not) but I think it’s just being grateful that they competed well and wanting to believe things got better. Some of that was goodwill from 2011 Worlds even though Alicia got injured there. In retrospect, I think 2016 got lucky that Marta was probably being less whatever it is she is and allowed the personal coaches to take more command. You saw it with Biles with how her coach really drove her trajectory towards 2016 and prepared her mentally as well by giving her perspective and making sure she knew she wouldn’t be a failure if she failed to live up to other people’s perspectives because she told Simone that was their problem, not hers.

We didn't know this at the time but shit was hitting the fan behind the scenes in 2015. I assume that even though she's a sociopath Marta was shook by the allegations and she was probably slightly different towards the 2016 team. It's creepy how everyone kept saying this was Marta's LAST Olympics and in retrospect she was just peacing out because she knew USAG was about to go down the tubes.

I also think that by 2016 there was finally an athlete that was bigger than Marta. Simone Biles had the power to pace herself the way she wanted because she was SO dominant. Unlike other quads the AA gold wasn't even in question. I'd imagine Simone's power was roughly akin to the way Lebron James is treated by the Lakers/Cavs/Heat or Michael Jordan by the Bulls. Marta was following along in the Simone show.