Gymnastic news #22 - Tokyo or bust

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honey

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@VGThuy could not agree more about the “oh” thing. It’s one thing if it fits into the music thematically (as it kind of did when she first had it), but quite another to keep inserting it into routines where it makes no sense to do so. And on top of that, it’s pretty silly looking and JMO, but completely juvenile.

I hope Sasha can help her, but not expecting miracles either. Fingers crossed though!
 
dramagrrl

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Simone's last few FX routines have been atrocious (especially in comparison to how magnificent she is and her awe-inspiring skills), so I really hope this is an improvement.
 
Aceon6

Aceon6

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dramagrrl said:
Simone's last few FX routines have been atrocious (especially in comparison to how magnificent she is and her awe-inspiring skills), so I really hope this is an improvement.
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I have my fingers crossed. If there’s anyone who knows how to choreograph for a compact body, it should be Sasha.
 
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just tuned in

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Kelvster

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For those who follow Russian gymnastics, Nikolai kuksenkov has announced his retirement on IG. His career was one of ups and downs, but he eventually earned his Olympic and world medal (albeit in the team competition). What a career it's been! Also displayed classic, elegant style of gymnastics which I liked. All the best for his coaching career
 
DimaToe

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Kelvster said:
For those who follow Russian gymnastics, Nikolai kuksenkov has announced his retirement on IG. His career was one of ups and downs, but he eventually earned his Olympic and world medal (albeit in the team competition). What a career it's been! Also displayed classic, elegant style of gymnastics which I liked. All the best for his coaching career
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It’s crazy to think what that generation of Ukrainian men could have done with proper support. Stepko, Kukaenkov, Vernaiyev. Even without the fiasco that was the Japanese men’s petition in 2012. Would have been interesting how things would have gone if they came back to Ukraine with a team bronze.
 
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rupertsurvive

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Simone is a great gymnast but I think she should be regarded as only the 2nd best U.S gymnast ever after Shannon Miller and in the world maybe top 10 barely. The reason being her competition is so weak, and while she is great that makes a lot of her wins fairly easy. It was much tougher in the days the Soviets, Romanians, East Germans, and Chinese were super strong, although at separate times for the East Germans and Chinese. All those countries are super weak now and nobody suitable has replace them.
 
VGThuy

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rupertsurvive said:
Simone is a great gymnast but I think she should be regarded as only the 2nd best U.S gymnast ever after Shannon Miller and in the world maybe top 10 barely. The reason being her competition is so weak, and while she is great that makes a lot of her wins fairly easy. It was much tougher in the days the Soviets, Romanians, East Germans, and Chinese were super strong, although at separate times for the East Germans and Chinese. All those countries are super weak now and nobody suitable has replace them.
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Or maybe it's the fact that Simone has pushed herself so far away from the competition that her wins look fairly easy but her peers haven't caught up to her level and they themselves cannot win over the competition as easily as she does. Of course, she could have lost to 2004-level Svetlana Khorkina/Carly Patterson, 2000s Simona Amanar/Maria Olaru...LMAO. I think reasonable minds can disagree about Miller v. Biles or Biles v. the likes of Korbut/Comeneci and other great gymnasts from the 1970s/80s once we put context together, but barely making the top ten? That's just bitter talk.
 
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rupertsurvive

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VGThuy said:
Or maybe it's the fact that Simone has pushed herself so far away from the competition that her wins look fairly easy but her peers haven't caught up to her level and they themselves cannot win over the competition as easily as she does. Of course, she could have lost to 2004-level Svetlana Khorkina/Carly Patterson, 2000s Simona Amanar/Maria Olaru...LMAO. I think reasonable minds can disagree about Miller v. Biles or Biles v. the likes of Korbut/Comeneci and other great gymnasts from the 1970s/80s once we put context together, but barely making the top ten? That's just bitter talk.
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The super weak All Around field had started long ago, so I am not singling out Biles. 2004 was a super weak field, Patterson who is probably the least talented gymnast to ever win the Olympic All Around beating out a way past her prime something like 27 year old Khorkina .

So if the field is such gymnasts like Patterson can win, a truly amazing gymnast like Biles who is twice the gymnast Patterson is will totally dominate. I am not sure the reason, but I think some of it is the political changes in the communist countries that used to be strong, and some is the format not encouraging All Around gymnasts anymore, but instead encouraging either specialists or gymnasts who have one really weak event. The event finals fields are still pretty good, so Biles medals there are amazing, the All Around ones not so much. Miller winning 2 straight World AA titles which should have been 3 since she was blatantly robbed in Barcelona in the deepest field ever is more impressive IMO. Of course she wasn't as dominant as Biles, she had actual competition outside the U.S. 2018 really highlighted the terrible field. Murakami, a gymnast with very weak bars, very weak beam, average vault, and pretty good floor, winning the World AA silver, and would have also won World AA gold the year before without her fall. Losing by about 2 falls to Biles who had 2 falls. Imagine a gymnast like Murakami ever contending regularly in the All Around in the past.

2000 was a decent field, it just turned into a sad disaster by circumstances.

Worldwide most have Miller barely top 10 all time, some have her outside the top 10, so if you agree Biles vs Miller is a debate which we seem to both think is reasonable, I don't see how barely top 10 is unreasonable.
 
VGThuy

VGThuy

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rupertsurvive said:
Worldwide most have Miller barely top 10 all time, some have her outside the top 10, so if you agree Biles vs Miller is a debate which we seem to both think is reasonable, I don't see how barely top 10 is unreasonable.
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Gee, I had no idea there was a totally unbiased, objective, not-at-all subjective or corrupted by fandoms and national biases and UNDEBATABLE consensus WORLDWIDE out there. It should be published on the Worldwide Almanacs and set as a headline by the FIG so nobody can argue anymore.

Anyway, I think some times we forget about how weak we consider gymnasts these days on various apparatuses, we don't realize the greats of the past would probably have some great weaknesses too if we made them do what we ask gymnasts today to do now. I mean I bet Lilia Podopayeva is on some people's top ten, but if we want to be harsh, then we can ask people if they have seen her second and third tumbling passes on FX? Her blah beam set? Her uneven bars set? Not really that notable outside of her toe point and carriage. If we asked her to do what we make gymnasts do on all four apparatuses now, I bet she would have issues with form and consistency as well.
 
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rupertsurvive

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Podkopayeva has her weaknesses for sure, but I mean if you compare Podkopayeva to gymnasts like Raisman or Murakami she is a way better All Around gymnast. Light years better bars (despite not being great herself, those other two are absolutely awful, while Lilia has 2 European titles and a world silver on bars) and beam than both for her time. Even superior overall floor to both considering her dance and choreography, and better vaulting for her time, she was doing a harder vault than Murakami is doing now over 20 years later, LOL! I am sure translated into the same era she wouldn't be beating Biles hardly ever in the AA after 2014 unless Biles fell. but as we saw last year Biles can literally fall twice and win by two falls vs the girls today.

Look at the Canadian girl who won an AA silver 2 years ago and would have won the AA easily without a big error on beam, but she probably isn't really any better a gymnast than people like Stella Umeh and Lori Strong were considering the eras, and those ladies were buried by the depth of the field back then.
 
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rupertsurvive

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VGThuy said:
Podkopayeva's choreography was quite awful. Her dancing skills were great though as evidenced by her compulsories.
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Maybe so but even then it was better than Murakami and Raisman's choreography which I don't even have words to describe. For that matter Biles's choreography is quite awful. Who even has good choreography today, maybe Laurie Hernandez when she competed, that is about it. And Lilia's dance execution was textbook inspite of the bad choreography, while people like Murakami, Black, Raisman literally can't dance. Biles and Hurd are ok dancers I guess, just ok.

Most importantly she was a 4 event gymnast as most people were then. Her bars was not great IMO, I agree there, but it still eons better than that thing Raisman or Murakami call a so called bars routine, or the vaulting or floor exercises of Derwael which would be poor by 1970s standards, yet Nina has very nearly medaled in the AA the last 2 years. The only gymnast today besides Biles who is sort of a 4 event gymnast is Melnikova, but the problem is she is just mediocre to fair on all 4 pieces, and super inconsistent.
 
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Choupette

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VGThuy said:
I mean I bet Lilia Podopayeva is on some people's top ten, but if we want to be harsh, then we can ask people if they have seen her second and third tumbling passes on FX?
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That's a little mean. Her fourth pass, for most of her senior career, was a the full twisting double back in pike position. Few gymnasts did it in a pike position at the end of their routine in that quad. As for the second and third passes, it's not her fault that the code highly rewarded those. In between all four passes, including the original first one (and even more when she invented her own skill), I don't find any reason to criticize her composition.

Now, her lines and positions were beautiful, but I've also disliked significant parts of her choreography in all her routines (especially the slow choreography to fast paced music). I never got her Olympic choreography at all. I want to, but to me it looks terribly childish and she had to have something better in her, given a different choreographer. I loved her giants on bars as well as her kip cast handstands, but her composition and usual execution errors weren't impressive. Beam, acrobatically speaking, thanks for the dismount. Vault was great.

I find it hard to compare gymnasts from different eras when the equipment has changed so much. Floor seems to have a lot more spring, bars are wider, the vaulting horse is entirely gone... The winners of today might not have been the winners of yesterday and vice-versa.
 
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rupertsurvive

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Regardless if you think Biles is the best ever or not, which is fine for those who think that, I don't see how any sane individual can deny the All Around field, especialy for women (really for men too) has sucked bigtime of late. I would say it was already weak by 2004 when Carly Patterson edged a super old way past it Khorkina for the gold in a forgettable field, but if it wasn't by then it was for sure by 2006 when Vanessa Ferrari won the All Around gold with a fall. I repeat- Vanessa Ferrari of all people won the World AA title with a fall. This is a gymnast who would be an extremely weak winner of such a prestigious title which such greats like Maxi Gnauck, Natalia Shaposhnikova, Olga Korbut, Olga Mostepanova, Lavinia Milosovici, Gina Gogean, Simona Amanar, Daniela Silivas, Tatiana Lysenko, Tatiana Gutsu, Dominique Dawes, Henriette Onodi, Elena Zamolodichkova, Catalina Ponor, Nastia Liukin, Cheng Fei, Mo Huilan, Karin Janz, and a slew of other amazing legends of the sport never attained, and she attained it with a fall. Beating out Jana Bieger of all people. OK say Biles wins with falls since she is so great, cool, but you aren't going to tell me Ferrari is so amazing she wins big All Around titles with falls unless the field is utter rubbish. Fast forward 3 years and this time it is Bridgette Sloan winning over Rebecca Bross who very nearly won with a fall, and would have if she did not lose bonus points for the particular element she missed in addition to the fall. Speaking of Bross she medaled again next year with a fall again, so gymnasts like Ferreri and Bross who are already forgotten by even most gymnastics diehards were regularly winning world AA medals and sometimes AA golds with falls. In between that 3 of the top 5 finishers including 2 medalists in the AA at the 2007 worlds both had falls, one of them beating Ferrari again, meaning a gymnast like Ferrari is able to fall regularly and still medal regularly in the AA even with falls while in her prime. Aliya Mustafina winning both her Olympic AA medals with gigantic error filled beam routines including a fall, and downgraded (due to injuries) vault and floor routines. Some AA world medalists since 2005- Monique Russo, Koko Tsuruni, Steliania Nistor, Jade Barbosa, Elena Eremia, Ellie Black. Jana Bieger. Ragan Smith would have easily won the World AA title 2 years ago, probably by a huge margin considering falling on beam in prelims she still had a much better score than the winner, without her injury before the final. Simone Biles fell twice and won by two falls last year .

It is a sad reality, but a reality nonetheless. The womens all around field has been godawful for awhile. The only strongish years were 2012 at a stretch, and I guess 2014 was alright, and maybe at a stretch 2008 when you had Johnson, Liukin, and Yilin at their peak. That is it. Every other year is pretty terrible.

Podkopayeva has her flaws and I thought she was overrated during her time although she was the best gymnast in 95 and 96 I guess considering Mo Huilan's inconsistency. She still is a light years better AAer than anyone left today with Mustafina way past it and Douglas retired except Biles though, certainly a far better All around gymnast than gymnasts like Raisman, Melnikova, or Murakami by a long ways. In fact the same would apply to atleast about 10 women around that (95/96)- Kochetkova, Miller, Dawes, Khorkina, Milo, Gogean, Amanar, Huilan, Galieva, heck even Moceanu, Elena Piskun, and an old Boginskaya, Or pretty much any era in history before 2006 compared to today. And as great as Biles is, it is hard to not imagine the super weak field in the All Around which everyone who follows gymnastics had spoke of for several years before anyone had heard of Biles, has not aided her complete dominance somewhat as well.

On another note Tim Dagget's quote at this years American Cup "any other year in history she would be the World All Around Champion" during Murakami's beam routine and referring to her 2018 Worlds, deserves a medal and statue built in honor of sheer comedy and stupidity. I literally spit my drink out when he said that.
 
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bardtoob

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Generally, I think it is hard to compare compulsories era gymnasts and post-compulsories era gymnasts without referencing some gymnasts that were way down in the standings after compulsories but had difficulty in optionals comparable to gymnasts from the post-compulsories era.

rupertsurvive said:
Simone is a great gymnast but I think she should be regarded as only the 2nd best U.S gymnast ever after Shannon Miller and in the world maybe top 10 barely. The reason being her competition is so weak, and while she is great that makes a lot of her wins fairly easy. It was much tougher in the days the Soviets, Romanians, East Germans, and Chinese were super strong, although at separate times for the East Germans and Chinese. All those countries are super weak now and nobody suitable has replace them.
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I love me some Shannon Miller. However, your "she can't be good because everybody else is bad" argument is dumb. You can simply list element by element, connection by connection, execution by execution, placement by placement, and Simone Biles is great. Perhaps some would say she is not very connected with the music in her floor, but they said the EXACT SAME THING about Nadia and Ludmilla.

VGThuy said:
Of course, she could have lost to 2004-level Svetlana Khorkina/Carly Patterson, 2000s Simona Amanar/Maria Olaru...LMAO.
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Why? Carly won and the exact same things were said about her as they are about Simone ... by "flash my cover of Russian Vogue" Khorkina. In fact, when Tweeting about Simone, 40ish Mother Khorkina makes comments like a jealous 14 year old.

... and my goodness, Amanar and Olaru lit up like zombies when it was their turn to perform.
 
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VGThuy

VGThuy

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bardtoob said:
Why? Carly won and the exact same things were said about her as they are about Simone ... by "flash my cover of Russian Vogue" Khorkina. In fact, when Tweeting about Simone, 40ish Mother Khorkina makes comments like a jealous 14 year old.

... and my goodness, Amanar and Olaru lit up like zombies when it was their turn to perform.
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That's why the very idea makes me LMAO. ;) I sort of felt bad for Khorkina for the way her Olympic AA dreams came about and for losing to such a boring gymnast with basic difficulty in 2004 (except that arabian dismount on beam), but I'm kind of happy she made those racist-tinged and bitter comments about Simone. Now I can be all Emperor has no clothes about Khorkina's sloppiness in 2004 with her strange at times form, and fake stick landings. Patterson deserved to win just on the basis of being a much cleaner gymnast with start values being near equal. Khorkina got away with things other gymnasts got deducted for, especially with those awful leaps that were overvalued in the 2001-2005 COP. Not to mention her choreography wasn't that good either by the end of her career. If we want to talk about weak AA competition, the fact that Khorkina was able to stay a AA contender for as long as she did is telling as well, and she didn't have the form or difficulty of Simone who also has to deal with much harsher penalties on bars with regard to handstands and pirouettes than Khorkina did. I will say Khorkina did make things work for her and invented many new moves. She FORCED gymnastics to fit her body type and for that I will always consider her a Queen. An overrated one by many, but a Queen nonetheless.

@rupertsurvive Say what you will about the field being weak, that's true. However, Biles did not have to dominate. Just because a field is weak does not mean a gymnast has to come forward and win everything. You act like someone else could have just stepped in and do it. That is not true at all. She could have been like all of those other gymnasts winning medals for two years and then falling behind into the crowd. But she kept pushing herself far ahead of the pack. She consistently kept up her condition, doing insane difficulty, and kept her body healthy and in-shape. What helps Simone gain her status as one of the top ever is that she is improving herself still and pushing the difficulty of the entire WAG more and more and she does not have to do that. She already won so many golds and the ultimate OGM in AA and yet she keeps pushing herself to do more than what people thought was possible. If anything, your whole spiel about Simone not being in the top ten of all time because the field is weak shows that without Simone, WAG would not be nearly as watchable without her. Like it or not, she is a modern-day superstar of the sport and is the only thing giving WAG energy right now and keeps it relevant internationally, despite what some bitter anti-American fans like to say. She is like the Michael Jordan/Lebron James/Serena Williams/Beyonce/Dorothy Hamill of WAG at the moment. The fact that you don't even think she deserves to be in the top ten of all-time despite all of that displays this crazy bias that makes me very suspicious to say the least.
 
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rupertsurvive

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@VGThuy, you make it sound like barely top 10 is an insult. Look at some of the gods in the sport. Vera Casvlaska and Larissa Latynina who have many more medals than Simone. The only place Simone has more is worlds, and that is since worlds are every year today, and were every 4th year then. The biggest knock on their records in comparision to most other greats in history is their competition was so much weaker, and compared to anytime from 1970-2000 or so that would be true, but compared to Simone not really. Daniela Silivas who never won a World or Olympic All Around title due to a combination of bad luck, corrupt judging (totally robbed at both the 88 Olympics, and arguably the 89 worlds where she only fell since Bogi was gifted the title by the scores and she gave up), and the super strong field, totally dominated 3 events- bars, beam, floor, which Simone does not do, and regularly medals in her "weak" event (vault) which again Simone does not do, and that in a WAY stronger field than Simone faces. We already mentioned Miller. And while I find her overrated Khorkina has to be in consideration too. And Nadia Commaneci comes into play of course. Olga Korbut has to be up there for how she revolutioned the sport like arguably nobody ever has, even if her medal count isn't that stellar historically speaking. And for winning so many big titles (both tons of big AA titles and tons of event titles) in the deepest field ever- Shushunova too, even if her AA win over Silivas in 88 was a corrupt and disgusting result on par with Gutsu's ridiculous win over Miller in 92, and to give a figure skating parallel Sotnikova's win over Yu Na Kim in Sochi, both results still are a fact.

So yes you could argue her top 3 all time, but you could also reasonably argue her as low as 8th or 9th without it being an insult in any sense. And arguing her 2nd behind Miller in the U.S is not an insult either. She has more medals than Miller but Miller's competition is light years ahead as is her style and artistry, so it is a close call between the two. You could make arguments either way. It annoyed me anyone dared compared freaking Liukin to Miller when Liukin did not even surpass her medal count against a vastly inferior field as well. Biles is the first American you can even argue against queen Miller.
 
FiveRinger

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@rupertsurvive whatever measuring standard you are using makes absolutely no sense. Let’s make it really simple. Simone has 5 world all around titles and an all around Olympic title. You have to go all if the way back to 1996 to find a female gymnast who has an all around world title and an Olympic all around title. That gymnast is Lilia Podkopayeva. Those two gymnasts, in my opinion, should make any top list. None of the other gymnasts you mentioned meet that standard. I might be willing to put an asterisk by Khorkina’s name because of the whole Sidney 2000 debacle, but besides that, you are spewing a bunch of nonsense. It’s ok not to like Simone, but you’re being nonsensically disrespectful. Get over it.
 
FiveRinger

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barbk said:
What a beautiful mount. I also liked the way she oozed into that split. I hadn't realized wollf turns had been with us so long. Sadly, they didn't look any prettier back then.
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I'm actually ok with her wolf turn. It looked really smooth and easy. And I agree, the split looked nice. I think that the wolf turn being done in combination is what makes it look better than what the girls are doing now.
 
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