From Russia with love [#28]: Autumn to Winter 2017

[Tinami Amori]

It should be 'я хочу сказать, что', without 'то'. For me it sounds pretty much like 'she don't' or 'you has'. Or like scratching the blackboard.

AFAIK it is grammatically wrong.

You didn't get the point. The 'я хочу сказать, что' is fine, grammatically and stylistically. The 'я хочу сказать то, что' is still fine stylistically, just wrong grammatically.

“то, что” exists and is grammatically correct if used or placed in a sentence properly. It means “that, which is” or “this, which is” and also as “what” in an accusative case.

He's doing (exactly that) what he's told - Он делает то, что ему говорят.
I know (that) you know – Я знаю, что знаешь
I know what (type of information) you know – Я знаю то, что знаешь
or I know what (same things that) you know – Я знаю то, что знаешь
I don't understand what he is saying - Я не понимаю то, что он говорит

It is sometimes used in conversations incorrectly stylistically, as a substitution for “что-то” which means “something”.
It is “clumsy” and not “literary proper” to use in certain sentences, but grammatically does exist, and used in conversations.

Я хочу сказать что-то! Его прыжок был с недокрутом.
I want to say something! his jump was under-rotated.

Я хочу сказать то, что его прыжок был с недокрутом.
I want to say this, that his jump was under-rotated.

Это было имеено то, что все ожидали.
It was exactly that, what everyone expected.

I am making a different point: A commentator should not use “I want to say.....” as a starting phrase. His/her job is “to say” and this action needs no permission or reaffirmation.

It is gramatically wrong, and don’t offend old people. Nobody over 25 makes this particular mistake.

Sounds like you never lived in old communal apartments and had to listen to the “old hags” talking in the hallways… Lucky you!

PS. Just saw this...http://www.dialog-21.ru/media/1254/korotaevna.pdf Thanks! very interesting.
(but it is not much different from what i said, only they said it academically proper....... )

people will read this, and will not want to learn Russian, regardless of which one of us is right..

 

[Tinami Amori]

Her coach is not evil, she is frustrated. Understandibly so. Like I mentioned before, if it is true that she only does a full run through the program once a week...

I absolutely agree (reading and watching info re Pogo) that the coach is frustrated, rightfully so. I disagree with her conduct and comments towards Pogo right after she came off the ice @ SC. A hug or a kind word would be proper; ... and save for later the critique and accusations. It is simply not productive, never mind "mean" and self-indulgent.

 

[Coquelicot14]

I absolutely agree (reading and watching info re Pogo) that the coach is frustrated, rightfully so. I disagree with her conduct and comments towards Pogo right after she came off the ice @ SC. A hug or a kind word would be proper; ... and save for later the critique and accusations. It is simply not productive, never mind "mean" and self-indulgent.

Yes, this sort of thing should definitely be done off camera... hope someone has a talk with them.

 

[TAHbKA]

Я хочу сказать то, что его прыжок был с недокрутом.
I want to say this, that his jump was under-rotated.

This is grammatically wrong. I think we have just found the only person below the age of 25 who would use that.

Sounds like you never lived in old communal apartments and had to listen to the “old hags” talking in the hallways…

No, I never did. And there is a difference between 'old hags' and someone on the TV.

people will read this, and will not want to learn Russian, regardless of which one of us is right..

Am not sure how is Ilinykh/Medvedeva making grammatical mistakes (all the time) is related, but then I never get your (lack of) logic anyway.

 

[Tinami Amori]

This is grammatically wrong. I think we have just found the only person below the age of 25 who would use that.

"то, что" exists and grammatically correct. it can be used improperly. my example is to demonstrate improper use (vs. examples of proper use).

No, I never did. And there is a difference between 'old hags' and someone on the TV..

I am not sure what you're arguing, when we agree..... A commentator should not use it; usually "old hags use it conversationally". My was a reply re "Old hags" was to another post anyway.

Am not sure how is Ilinykh/Medvedeva making grammatical mistakes (all the time) is related, but then I never get your (lack of) logic anyway.

No wonder you don't "get it", when you see "Ilinykh/Medvedeva" where "Medvedeva" is never mentioned, but then i do get your "motivations" for lots of replies to my posts....

 

[Eeyora1]

Can somebody please give a translation between what was said between the two Anna’s in the kiss and cry?

 

[Tinami Amori]

Can somebody please give a translation between what was said between the two Anna’s in the kiss and cry?

In a nutshell (there was more).

Tzareva (right at the railings, kind of in slang. addressing her "Tu/Du"): Why are you dying or what? are your legs going lame? Don't you think you should be practicing more your full routine, from start to end during practices? And not once a week, but frequently? You should be getting your speed up, or the loop (looks) as if you're doing from a stand-still. Your skating (looks) as if you're not alive.

Pogorolilaya (calm voice, addressing Tzareva "Vous/Sie"): Look how you pulled on my nerves (got me agitated) (during earlier practice she meant).

Tzareva ("Tu/Du"): I will not come near you from now on, (you can) from here on go to competitions by yourself.

====
Let's give Tanbka something to do. Here is the original Russian version.... to my translation......

Царева: Чего ты умираешь-то, у тебя ноги, что ли, отказывают? Тебе не кажется, что нужно побольше катать программу от начала до конца на тренировках? Что бы не один раз в неделю, а чаще? Ты скорость-то набирай, а то риттбергер как с места делаешь. Катаешься как неживая.

Погорилая: Посмотрите, как вы дергали меня.

Царева: Я к тебе вообще подходить не буду, будешь одна на соревнования ездить.

 

[VGThuy]

Yikes. The Olympic pressure is certainly getting to one of them. I think Tzareva is aware of what an uphill battle Anna has to make the Olympic team. While acknowledging might be wise, it might be adding more pressure to Anna that she doesn't want to confront right now.

 

[quiqie]

“то, что” exists and is grammatically correct if used or placed in a sentence properly. It means “that, which is” or “this, which is” and also as “what” in an accusative case.

He's doing (exactly that) what he's told - Он делает то, что ему говорят.
I know (that) you know – Я знаю, что знаешь
I know what (type of information) you know – Я знаю то, что знаешь
or I know what (same things that) you know – Я знаю то, что знаешь
I don't understand what he is saying - Я не понимаю то, что он говорит

It is sometimes used in conversations incorrectly stylistically, as a substitution for “что-то” which means “something”.
It is “clumsy” and not “literary proper” to use in certain sentences, but grammatically does exist, and used in conversations.

Я хочу сказать что-то! Его прыжок был с недокрутом.
I want to say something! his jump was under-rotated.

Я хочу сказать то, что его прыжок был с недокрутом.
I want to say this, that his jump was under-rotated.

Это было имеено то, что все ожидали.
It was exactly that, what everyone expected.

I am making a different point: A commentator should not use “I want to say.....” as a starting phrase. His/her job is “to say” and this action needs no permission or reaffirmation.


Sounds like you never lived in old communal apartments and had to listen to the “old hags” talking in the hallways… Lucky you!

PS. Just saw this...http://www.dialog-21.ru/media/1254/korotaevna.pdf Thanks! very interesting.
(but it is not much different from what i said, only they said it academically proper....... )

people will read this, and will not want to learn Russian, regardless of which one of us is right..

I feel like clarification is in order.
A. TAHbKA mentioned a grammatical mistake that Ilinykh apparently makes quite often during her commentary (and later added that so does Medvedeva during her interviews).
B. I said that this particular mistake (using «то, что» when it shouldn’t be used and constitues a mistake) is extremely typical for young people nowadays.
C. It is rather irritating in a “nails on a chalkboard” kind of way.
D. It is also quite a distinctive mistake that is supposedly associated with age, as evidenced by the paper I linked.

Now, what remains a mystery for me is how you get “old hags”, “communal apartments”, and all the stream of consciousness you posted out of this. Speech patterns of old people can be repetitive and sometimes incoherent, but it has nothing to do with this particular mistake.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I feel like clarification is in order.
A. TAHbKA mentioned a grammatical mistake that Ilinykh apparently makes quite often during her commentary (and later added that so does Medvedeva during her interviews).

She mentioned "I/M" in connection to "my logic" and she was wrong.

B. I said that this particular mistake (using «то, что» when it shouldn’t be used and constitues a mistake) is extremely typical for young people nowadays.

I also said and agree it is a mistake, but the "то, что" is not grammatically incorrect "word combination"... it exists. Coco asked a question in regards to "learning beginner's russian".

C. It is rather irritating in a “nails on a chalkboard” kind of way.

... and there was no disagreement there.....

D. It is also quite a distinctive mistake that is supposedly associated with age, as evidenced by the paper I linked.
Now, what remains a mystery for me is how you get “old hags”, “communal apartments”, and all the stream of consciousness you posted out of this. Speech patterns of old people can be repetitive and sometimes incoherent, but it has nothing to do with this particular mistake.

One thing we can't debate on is "personal experience"....

 

[Cherub721]

people will read this, and will not want to learn Russian, regardless of which one of us is right..

It's an interesting debate, and there's always a new challenge with Russian - I've almost got the hang of the verbs of motion now.

In a nutshell (there was more).

Tzareva (right at the railings, kind of in slang. addressing her "Tu/Du"): Why are you dying or what? are your legs going lame? Don't you think you should be practicing more your full routine, from start to end during practices? And not once a week, but frequently? You should be getting your speed up, or the loop (looks) as if you're doing from a stand-still. Your skating (looks) as if you're not alive.

I don't understand her point at all, this seems so unnecessary. Would an old school Russian coach ever reveal "the secrets" like this? I mean, either Anna always does once-a-week runthroughs (which means it works fine for her, given many clean performances and GP gold medals she has won) or she's only doing them right now because she is injured, in which case she shouldn't be blamed. And isn't Tsareva the coach, therefore the skater's training routine is up to her? It sounds like she has no control over the situation at all, quite contrary to the stereotypes of Russian coaches. I really doubt Anna is lazy considering all the success she's had, and being the only Russian to qualify to Worlds the last 4 years straight, so I don't think it's a matter of her just skipping practices because she's a brat. Don't they have specialists, didn't they put together a plan on how much she should skate while preparing for the GP while injured? Tsareva seems so unprofessional. What other high level students does she have?

 

[rfisher]

I'm not certain Tsareva meant she only does the free skate once a week or that she's only done a complete run through within the last week. Anna withdrew from the free skate at her Russian event due to back pain. That was just a couple of weeks ago. But, it seems the is on both parts. Tsareva blamed Pogo and Pogo blamed Tsareva.

As much as I enjoy a good Tsareva bitch face, I'd like to see Pogo switch to Urmanov. But, that would mean a big move on her part since he's not leaving Sochi.

 

[Cherub721]

As much as I enjoy a good Tsareva bitch face, I'd like to see Pogo switch to Urmanov.

I had been thinking the same. Julia seemed to find it a good environment, even though her health didn't allow us to see much of the results.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I had been thinking the same. Julia seemed to find it a good environment, even though her health didn't allow us to see much of the results.

I heard some journalists saying (in a nut-shell) "Urmanov is a gentleman/gracious nice-spoken man, and too soft on his pupils".

 

[Coquelicot14]

Ok, a bit off topic, but I can't help myself...
Just saw this on instagram and it made me think of the grammar debate here

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ba4KpyxBUoT/

 

[Tinami Amori]

Ok, a bit off topic, but I can't help myself...
Just saw this on instagram and it made me think of the grammar debate here

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ba4KpyxBUoT/

Russia has "valley girls"!...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81IZDhXeJBk

 

[barbarafan]

I'm not certain Tsareva meant she only does the free skate once a week or that she's only done a complete run through within the last week. Anna withdrew from the free skate at her Russian event due to back pain. That was just a couple of weeks ago. But, it seems the is on both parts. Tsareva blamed Pogo and Pogo blamed Tsareva.

As much as I enjoy a good Tsareva bitch face, I'd like to see Pogo switch to Urmanov. But, that would mean a big move on her part since he's not leaving Sochi.

Yes Pogo to Urmanov..Mutual respect..

 

[barbarafan]

In a nutshell (there was more).

Tzareva (right at the railings, kind of in slang. addressing her "Tu/Du"): Why are you dying or what? are your legs going lame? Don't you think you should be practicing more your full routine, from start to end during practices? And not once a week, but frequently? You should be getting your speed up, or the loop (looks) as if you're doing from a stand-still. Your skating (looks) as if you're not alive.

Pogorolilaya (calm voice, addressing Tzareva "Vous/Sie"): Look how you pulled on my nerves (got me agitated) (during earlier practice she meant).

Tzareva ("Tu/Du"): I will not come near you from now on, (you can) from here on go to competitions by yourself.

====
Let's give Tanbka something to do. Here is the original Russian version.... to my translation......

Царева: Чего ты умираешь-то, у тебя ноги, что ли, отказывают? Тебе не кажется, что нужно побольше катать программу от начала до конца на тренировках? Что бы не один раз в неделю, а чаще? Ты скорость-то набирай, а то риттбергер как с места делаешь. Катаешься как неживая.

Погорилая: Посмотрите, как вы дергали меня.

Царева: Я к тебе вообще подходить не буду, будешь одна на соревнования ездить.

Thank-you....She sounds like Frank Carroll in drag talking to Gracie Gold. Who is the adult in this conversation?

 

[jenniferlyon]

Thank-you....She sounds like Frank Carroll in drag talking to Gracie Gold. Who is the adult in this conversation?

Since skating coaches are dealing with very young athletes, I feel it's important for them to behave in a mature manner. If a skater is throwing tantrums or sulking or refusing to work (and I'm not saying this is the case with Anna; I am speaking in general terms here), the last thing they need is a coach who acts they're in high school.

 

[kwanfan1818]

The whole conversation struck me as mother-daughter mishegas.

"I told you so, but, noooooo, you had to do it anyway. You want to pretend everything was normal: fine, I'll give you normal."

I got the impression that Tsareva didn't want her to compete until she was able to train properly, which, being injured and/or still recovering from injury, she can't. Plus she might have blown the entire Olympic cycle by competing prematurely, especially after Helsinki.

I'm not sure why Pogorilaya would have been insistent on competing in Regina: it's not a trip to Paris or Japan, where she'd need extra suitcases for all of the fan gifts.

 

[Eeyora1]

In a nutshell (there was more).

Tzareva (right at the railings, kind of in slang. addressing her "Tu/Du"): Why are you dying or what? are your legs going lame? Don't you think you should be practicing more your full routine, from start to end during practices? And not once a week, but frequently? You should be getting your speed up, or the loop (looks) as if you're doing from a stand-still. Your skating (looks) as if you're not alive.

Pogorolilaya (calm voice, addressing Tzareva "Vous/Sie"): Look how you pulled on my nerves (got me agitated) (during earlier practice she meant).

Tzareva ("Tu/Du"): I will not come near you from now on, (you can) from here on go to competitions by yourself.

====
Let's give Tanbka something to do. Here is the original Russian version.... to my translation......

Царева: Чего ты умираешь-то, у тебя ноги, что ли, отказывают? Тебе не кажется, что нужно побольше катать программу от начала до конца на тренировках? Что бы не один раз в неделю, а чаще? Ты скорость-то набирай, а то риттбергер как с места делаешь. Катаешься как неживая.

Погорилая: Посмотрите, как вы дергали меня.

Царева: Я к тебе вообще подходить не буду, будешь одна на соревнования ездить.

Wow! Is all I can say. It’s been no secret they’ve had a difficult complex relationship, that has worked for Anna sometimes in the past but it’s clearly not working now and certainly not healthy. Those comments were definitely inappropriate on camera and if this is what goes on during a daily basis.... I don’t see there relationship lasting much longer.

I’m sure at this point despite their complicated relationship there must be hesitance for a coaching change being risky during an Olympic skating. But I hate to see Anna go on like this. I would rather see her find someone else like Urmanov, start from scratch and think about the long run.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I am not sure Urmanov is the best solution for Anna... i just don't. He is a nice guy, good coach, but is best for someone very adult, disciplined and determined and self-propelled. Mishin might be good... but is that even a option? I would not be surprised if Pluschenko makes an offer to Anna....

 

[million$momma]

The whole conversation struck me as mother-daughter mishegas.

"I told you so, but, noooooo, you had to do it anyway. You want to pretend everything was normal: fine, I'll give you normal."

I got the impression that Tsareva didn't want her to compete until she was able to train properly, which, being injured and/or still recovering from injury, she can't.
QUOTE]

This was my take on the situation too.

 

[barbarafan]

I am not sure Urmanov is the best solution for Anna... i just don't. He is a nice guy, good coach, but is best for someone very adult, disciplined and determined and self-propelled. Mishin might be good... but is that even a option? I would not be surprised if Pluschenko makes an offer to Anna....

I was thinking of Pluschenko as well but he is not proven yet as a coach but Urmanov did a great job of repairing Julia's jump technique.

 

[analia]

I don't see anything wrong with Tsareva and Pogo's conversation. People who spend all their time around each other talk like that.

 

[Marco]

OK let's face it. There is no way the Russian fed will let Anna place top 3 at Nationals no matter how clean she skated and be named to Euros / Olys / Worlds. Not with this second disaster as well.

 

[Tinami Amori]

OK let's face it. There is no way the Russian fed will let Anna place top 3 at Nationals no matter how clean she skated and be named to Euros / Olys / Worlds. Not with this second disaster as well.

The thing is that both the audience and the Russian Feds luuuuuve Anna Pogorilaya, and would not mind at all if "classic Russian beauty" became their Ice Princess.... But for the last 3 years everybody is tired of having heart attacks each time she comes out on the ice....... and then "The Drama of the Falls" does not help either, falls every one expects, but not all the drama...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0qXm35xxw4

 

[Bellanca]

If Anna could just stay on her feet without the falls, but keep all the drama, that is the best of both worlds. She would become virtually unbeatable.

 

[jenniferlyon]

I don't see anything wrong with Tsareva and Pogo's conversation. People who spend all their time around each other talk like that.

Yeah, they do. But unless they're on a reality show, they usually don't talk to each other like that when they are well aware that TV cameras are filming them.

 

[lala]

I am not sure Urmanov is the best solution for Anna... i just don't. He is a nice guy, good coach, but is best for someone very adult, disciplined and determined and self-propelled. Mishin might be good... but is that even a option? I would not be surprised if Pluschenko makes an offer to Anna....

Plushenko did make offer to Yulia, only! And he invited her in shows not as a competitive skater. Adelina called him and Sima also..But he was right both of them are too young to finish their career.