Discussing Tuberidze's latest interview

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
57,960
Well, Trusova has shown that it is possible to keep it.
Possible doesn't mean they all will. We know from experience that success as a Junior doesn't necessarily translate to success as a Senior and that the body changes girls go through as they grow can throw off jumps even when you have good technique.

I remember when Mirai beat Caroline for the Junior title at Nationals. People were saying that Mirai had good technique and would be successful as a Senior while Caroline would have issues. But it didn't work out that way. There are more issues at play than jump height and technique.

I would say that at least 1/3 of those kids will not be competitive in a few years.

I think it would encourage more eating disorders and use of drugs.
How? Please explain.

Devil's advocate again maybe, but what is raising the senior age going to do?
It might give kids more time to adjust to changing body out of the spotlight.

I have mixed feelings about raising the age limit. People make the same arguments that you did as to why it won't work but it does seem to have worked in gymnastics so I think it can work. It all depends on how it's implemented, I guess.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,122
Wouldn't it have been 1999? She was 18 at 1999 Worlds.
She would've turned 18 after the July 1 deadline, which is what they've always gone by as their measurement.
It might give kids more time to adjust to changing body out of the spotlight.

I have mixed feelings about raising the age limit. People make the same arguments that you did as to why it won't work but it does seem to have worked in gymnastics so I think it can work. It all depends on how it's implemented, I guess.
I'd think the entire JGP and Junior Nationals and the ability to skate at senior Nationals below the minimum international age would need to be done away with as far as broadcasting then, especially the last part. Imagine the limit goes to 18 and a bunch of 17 year olds sweep the top 6 at Russian Nationals. But then again with social media, it's hard to keep anyone who is talented out of the spotlight as it is.

Also, I may be remembering wrong but I thought most people wanted Asada to be able to compete in 2006 after her successful Grand Prix (and Final) series, so this would be very much going the opposite direction.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
Messages
12,547
I would say that at least 1/3 of those kids will not be competitive in a few years.
That’s absolutely fine if 1/3 of those kids are not competitive. Russia has such numbers of very talented young girls that they won’t even notice losing 1/3 of them. The lucky ones will survive puberty changes and that still will be enough to stay on top of the world.
 

twizzletoes76

Well-Known Member
Messages
209
It seems as if raising the age for Seniors to 17 would be beneficial.
You could also just have a whole new category—it could be called a master’s division or something like that for skaters say 22 years old or over if female—and, maybe 28 years old or older if male.

I guarantee if the ISU started something like that so that popular skaters like Medvedeeva or Tuktamysheva could stay in longer—then worldwide, the public would be more interested.

The general public does not want to learn the new names of new stars every few years—they want to see popular skaters return.

Additionally, not everyone wants to see skinny teenagers compete: sometimes it is more interesting to see what an athlete can do once that athlete becomes a fully formed adult—even if it might mean less circus style tricks.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
She would've turned 18 after the July 1 deadline, which is what they've always gone by as their measurement.

I'd think the entire JGP and Junior Nationals and the ability to skate at senior Nationals below the minimum international age would need to be done away with as far as broadcasting then, especially the last part. Imagine the limit goes to 18 and a bunch of 17 year olds sweep the top 6 at Russian Nationals. But then again with social media, it's hard to keep anyone who is talented out of the spotlight as it is.

Also, I may be remembering wrong but I thought most people wanted Asada to be able to compete in 2006 after her successful Grand Prix (and Final) series, so this would be very much going the opposite direction.
She turned 18 on July 7, 1998, so she would have been eligible at 1999 Worlds. Had she been born before the July 1 deadline in 1980, she would have been eligible for the 1997-1998 season's senior championship events and Olympic games, right?
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,122
She turned 18 on July 7, 1998, so she would have been eligible at 1999 Worlds. Had she been born before the July 1 deadline in 1980, she would have been eligible for the 1997-1998 season's senior championship events and Olympic games, right?
She needed to be 18 by the July 1, 1998 deadline (the day the ISU 'season' starts) to be able to compete at 1999 Worlds. She was 7 days too young if that would've been in place.

Sotnikova was born on exactly July 1, like 4 or 6 hours too late to move up to the next level up in her skating. Had she turned 15 on July 1, 2013, she would not have been eligible for 2014 (luckily for her, she turned 17).
 
Last edited:

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
57,960
Also, I may be remembering wrong but I thought most people wanted Asada to be able to compete in 2006 after her successful Grand Prix (and Final) series, so this would be very much going the opposite direction.
I don't know about "most people" but there sure was a vocal contingent. I assume a lot of them were also the people who argue against age limits though.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
She needed to be 18 by the July 1, 1998 deadline (the day the ISU 'season' starts) to be able to compete at 1999 Worlds. She was 7 days too young if that would've been in place.

Sotnikova was born on exactly July 1, like 4 or 6 hours too late to be considered the next level up in her skating. Had she turned 15 on July 1, 2013, she would not have been eligible for 2014 (luckily for her, she turned 17).
For some reason, maybe because fans keep saying it throughout the years, I misread the rules to be that one had to be 16 to compete in senior level championships (like Euros/4CC, Worlds, and the Olympics) but that there was a grace period that if you turned 16 before July 1 of the same year of those championships, then you were eligible. I was reading it backwards, I guess. So it's really skaters are allowed to compete when they are 15 so long as they turned 15 before July 1 the previous year.

That's why I was reading it like had Michelle Kwan turned 18 by the July 1 of the same year Worlds was held then she'd be eligible to compete in 1999 season as opposed to looking at it like she had to be 18 by the July of the previous year. I was thinking there'd be a grace period where some 17 year olds would be competing the way I thought the age requirement was 16 with that grace period where some 15 year olds could compete as opposed to looking at it as the age being where 15 year olds are allowed to compete so long as their birthday was before the half-way mark of the previous year.
 

LeafOnTheWind

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,483
You guys mentioned gymnastics changing the age limits but was that the only thing they changed? Did they change the scoring emphasis as well? I kind of think skating would need to do both with updating the scoring as being by far the most useful.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,122
Judging PCS as it's defined and not pegging it to tech would be a good start.
I don't think we are ever going to get what we want in that regard. Remember when they separated the panels? The spreads were still crazy. Remember when they had people only marking certain parts of PCS along with GOE? Those spreads were still crazy too!

I don't think judging PCS with more 'spread' or 'accuracy' from one's own POV is going to change anything at the top, either. The Russians with quads have such an advantage over the rest of the field that Vaileva could be handed 5.50 or so across the board (didn't do the math, I know I've done it in the past) and still win the gold (or silver).
 
D

Deleted member 80234

Guest
“She would've turned 18 after the July 1 deadline, which is what they've always gone by as their measurement.”


*Michelle was born on July 7, 1980, so she turned 18 on July 7, 1998. She would have been a few months away from 19 at 1999 Worlds.
 
D

Deleted member 80234

Guest
@Debdelilah2 keep reading on, it doesn't matter how close she was to 19 at Worlds.
I see now; the previous year rule. But if the purpose of that was to inch people a little closer to 16 to compete, 15 and a few months, then changing it from 15 to 17 might be reasonable to nudge people at least close to 18.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
37,543
I don't think we are ever going to get what we want in that regard. Remember when they separated the panels? The spreads were still crazy. Remember when they had people only marking certain parts of PCS along with GOE? Those spreads were still crazy too!
The people who were on those test judging panels weren't bought in: they said they were too bored. And even if they had been the biggest supporters of split panels, they surely weren't going to get it right on the first tries: they would have had to relearn the equivalent of muscle memory.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,122
The people who were on those test judging panels weren't bought in: they said they were too bored. And even if they had been the biggest supporters of split panels, they surely weren't going to get it right on the first tries: they would have had to relearn the equivalent of muscle memory.
I think that's a realistic problem though. There's really too much to watch all at once with GOE and PCS regardless of how established the judge is, but separating it into two different things leaves them bored. All of the judges who have spent 5 or 10 or even the full nearly 20 years under IJS have been used to the constant observing throughout the programs. I don't think there is a happy medium with it, and I don't think any active judge would want to relearn it only to do much less.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
If Kwan had to debut in 2000 then her 1993-94 programs would look kinda funny on an 18 going on 19 year old. ;)
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,122
If Kwan had to debut in 2000 then her 1993-94 programs would look kinda funny on an 18 going on 19 year old. ;)
Nah, she would've had 5 or 6 seasons of wins at Junior Worlds and North Americans would've been complaining for at least 3 years (if not more but especially during Nagano) that she should've been competing with the seniors, since she was always good for 6 or even 7 triples ;)
 

sjs5572

Well-Known Member
Messages
398
I will admit that I have not read every post in this thread, but by scanning I don’t think this issue was raised - if it was, I apologize.

I think that the IJS system has bred this problem. IJS rewards rotation and flexibility. Females after puberty gain body mass in areas that make rotation more difficult. So if you can suppress the ravages of puberty - either through delaying it or mitigating it (ie eating disorders), maybe you can breed a champion. There’s lots of coaches and federations out there that care more about winning than their athletes - in all sports.
I also found this article alarming, which discusses the use of hormone blockers!
 
Last edited:

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,122
I also found this article alarming, which discusses the use of hormone blockers!
Is there a reason you quoted my post regarding Anna with a link to that article, or is this just another one of your correlations similar to what was on full display in the US Nationals thread? Because I should sure hope you are not trying to suggest something based on her build alone. As has been pointed out repeatedly-- that's not productive.
 

Orm Irian

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,691
Judging PCS as it's defined and not pegging it to tech would be a good start.
Defining the PCS criteria for each category and point range precisely so that it could be properly judged would be a better one. You can't have effective criterion-referenced assessment if you don't have clear criteria for the assessors to reference, and the more I read the more I find that IJS doesn't, especially for PCS!
 

sjs5572

Well-Known Member
Messages
398
Is there a reason you quoted my post regarding Anna with a link to that article, or is this just another one of your correlations similar to what was on full display in the US Nationals thread? Because I should sure hope you are not trying to suggest something based on her build alone. As has been pointed out repeatedly-- that's not productive.
Sorry, I actually meant to only quote the statement that was responding to you. I will correct.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
Messages
17,122
She's literally posting that article under a quote from someone else that contains this sentence:

"So if you can suppress the ravages of puberty - either through delaying it or mitigating it (ie eating disorders), maybe you can breed a champion."
She literally quoted my post as well and just said it was an accident. So thanks for the input.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
Nah, she would've had 5 or 6 seasons of wins at Junior Worlds and North Americans would've been complaining for at least 3 years (if not more but especially during Nagano) that she should've been competing with the seniors, since she was always good for 6 or even 7 triples ;)
But maybe Maria would have been winning more medals without those pesky teens so I can see the Russians being been fine with the age limit. ;)
 

millyskate

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,720
You guys mentioned gymnastics changing the age limits but was that the only thing they changed? Did they change the scoring emphasis as well? I kind of think skating would need to do both with updating the scoring as being by far the most useful.
The gymnastics scoring has been updated to work in a similar way to the skating scoring system. It actually pushes gymnasts (and skaters) to go for more difficulty over execution which has its pitfalls.
The age increase has led to more diverse body-types being represented and gymnasts' careers lasting far longer. The open-ended scoring has led to sometimes very messy routines winning over clean ones. Only one of the changes has had a positive impact.
 

Jammers

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,525
Possible doesn't mean they all will. We know from experience that success as a Junior doesn't necessarily translate to success as a Senior and that the body changes girls go through as they grow can throw off jumps even when you have good technique.

I remember when Mirai beat Caroline for the Junior title at Nationals. People were saying that Mirai had good technique and would be successful as a Senior while Caroline would have issues. But it didn't work out that way. There are more issues at play than jump height and technique.

I would say that at least 1/3 of those kids will not be competitive in a few years.


How? Please explain.


It might give kids more time to adjust to changing body out of the spotlight.

I have mixed feelings about raising the age limit. People make the same arguments that you did as to why it won't work but it does seem to have worked in gymnastics so I think it can work. It all depends on how it's implemented, I guess.
It did work out that way Mirai had the better career as a Senior just not as good as she could have had with the amount of talent she had.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
It did work out that way Mirai had the better career as a Senior just not as good as she could have had with the amount of talent she had.
Very true. People expected more but objectively speaking, she ended up with a long-lasting senior career that was very rewarding and hard-fought. Two Olympic Games out of three tries with a 4th place finish in one, a team medal in the other where her own performances greatly added to the success and became the first American lady to land a triple Axel at the Olympics…lots of Worlds appearances and international medals, etc. Her last Olympics also had a low top ten finish in the individual but she delivered where her medal chances were greater and somehow having such an up-and-down Olympics seemed appropriate for Mirai. She got an appearance in Dancing with the Stars out of it.

Compare that to Caroline Zhang, whose skating I liked despite the horrible jump technique and slow skating. It’s funny how people always say the USFS propped her up while the international judges favored Mirai when as juniors it was the USFS judges that gave Mirai a title over Caroline while Caroline won Junior Worlds that same season over Mirai and continued to have success as a junior internationally while she was waiting to be age-eligible.

Speaking of that, I also noticed fans of skaters like using the USFS v. International judges thing and it’s funny because usually the actual numbers don’t support those notions. I think people like using that because they like victimizing their faves by imagining some USFS-led conspiracy against their fave, and they also think that international judges are more legitimate or credible than domestic one.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information