Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

[overedge]

I agree and it sounds like there is something that needs a closer look, beyond John. Does anyone seem concerned that Dave Lease mentioned in the video with Christine that the judges are mad at an alleged victim, who is competing at nationals? I'm surprised nobody is talking about this alleged breach of judging ethics. If this is truly going on, then it does represent a dangerous systemic problem.

It concerns me, but I would also like to know how Dave knows this. I'd also like to know what exactly they are mad about, and if these are "the judges" that are going to be judging whatever event the alleged victim is competing in.

I would also hope that judges would put those emotions aside and judge as they are supposed to judge.

 

[tony]

I agree and it sounds like there is something that needs a closer look, beyond John.

Does anyone seem concerned that Dave Lease mentioned in the video with Christine that the judges are mad at an alleged victim, who is competing at nationals? I'm surprised nobody is talking about this alleged breach of judging ethics. If this is truly going on, then it does represent a dangerous systemic problem and toxic culture.

And I think this is exactly the problem that most people have with TSL. I don’t think Dave did any wrong in bringing to light something that was published for everyone to see- because if not him, it would’ve been someone else.

But these ‘I know extra details and you dont’ things just bring up more questions and show him to fluctuate between actually wanting to ‘do good’ for the sport and just wanting to cause more controversy. JMO.

 

[aftershocks]

We are dealing with a very tragic situation and we are not going to resolve anything here, but can we at least realize the enormity of what's going on and recognize that none of us have all the answers?

I know I don't have all the answers, but I also know that I'm not going to be pushed into feeling like I have to take sides and align myself with one way of thinking over another. Nor will I be pressured into feeling guilty or culpable in having immediately expressed my personal feelings of grief and admiration in the other thread for the good qualities of John Coughlin.

Part of the problem is that the piling on and jumping to conclusions and assumptions within the social media universe is apparently partly what led to Coughlin's anguish and to his feeling that it was useless to fight, and that he had nothing left to live for. Surely, no one wanted death to result from Internet shaming while Coughlin was under suspension and being investigated for sexual misconduct allegations? Of course, a lot of young people have been committing suicide these days as a result of Internet shaming and bullying. We are living through a difficult and complex cultural moment altogether, which should be treated with a great deal more humility, compassion and results-oriented communication, rather than with pent-up anger and vengeance.

U.S. figure skating should have already been ahead of the curve by this point in providing education workshops and counseling regarding the issue of sexual misconduct. I think there are situations of outright egregious sexual misconduct, but also situations involving adults where a person may rightly feel discomfort in being bear-hugged, or casually flirted with unwillingly. When minors are involved, there's no excuse for touching and hugging that can be uncomfortable and misconstrued. Flirting with minors is completely inappropriate and should never be tolerated. But in this case we still don't know what the specific allegations are. If SafeSport is suspending their investigation due to Coughlin's death, I think USFS should assign an independent task-force to complete a full and impartial investigation.

 

[mollymgr]

I agree and it sounds like there is something that needs a closer look, beyond John. Does anyone seem concerned that Dave Lease mentioned in the video with Christine that the judges are mad at an alleged victim, who is competing at nationals? I'm surprised nobody is talking about this alleged breach of judging ethics. If this is truly going on, then it does represent a dangerous systemic problem.

If true, it points to the culture in this sport. Maybe most people are used to these things happening around them and feel that this has disturbed the "peace" of the community, a headache that needs to be dealt with for USFSA and PSA, a PR nightmare during a major skating event, or they have even seen worse than this and no one has caused any "trouble" until this happened. It is easier when a "problem" disappears rather than having to solve it. How many people had to get fired from USAG?

 

[aftershocks]

After the U.S. championships end and after John Coughlin is buried, I hope a full and complete investigation of the allegations against him is conducted. In the meantime, anyone making lists of names and targeting skaters for expressing grief and remembering a friend on social media, should stop their bullying behavior. If the aggressive and bullying behavior doesn't stop, these angry perpetrators need to be reported and visited by police. On the opposite end, those who lashed out at others on social media in the immediate aftermath of John's death need to redirect their anger and grief into something more productive. Let's all try to be more cautious and reflective. Level heads need to prevail in this moment.

 

[once_upon]

It's been explained to you multiple times that "due process" was being followed. Enough.

 

[kittysk8ts]

One of the accusers is an adult - the first person to complain. Maybe they will be truly brave, supported, etc and come forward of their own volition.

Who knows?

What a scary thought. They would indeed have to be brave. Given all that I’ve read here, and elsewhere, I’m not sure that would be a good idea for that person.

 

[Coco]

If that reporting party did come forward, I'm sure some would accuse them of pouring salt in the wounds and speaking ill of the dead. There is no winning path here.

 

[LarrySK8]

What a scary thought. They would indeed have to be brave. Given all that I’ve read here, and elsewhere, I’m not sure that would be a good idea for that person.

If that reporting party did come forward, I'm sure some would accuse them of pouring salt in the wounds and speaking ill of the dead. There is no winning path here.

Agree, but stranger things we have seen.

 

[tony]

Adding a bit to my previous thought- Dave has repeatedly shown his dislike for the USFS as an organization and for some of the people inside of it. He’s had press credentials given to him and then taken away by USFS, and skaters within US Skating have been told not to talk to him- I know this to be 100% true.

So, my question remains if he has an agenda the majority of the year against said people, why would he casually/subtly drop that judges are upset? He has nothing to lose at this point concerning any of them, since he really has nothing left, so I’m curious as to why he goes through all of this reporting only to not make comments to news outlets and then say something of this nature and NOT elaborate who they are.

 

[sam-skwantch]

But these ‘I know extra details and you dont’ things just bring up more questions and show him to fluctuate between actually wanting to ‘do good’ for the sport and just wanting to cause more controversy. JMO.

We can hope Dave isn’t making claims for the sake of creating gossip but instead doing some “reporting” of his own. I will hope he reported the details of this information along to USOC and USFSA. To not do so would seem to undermine the importance of such accusations from his end. YMMV

He’s certainly not obligated to but it would be a positive IMO.

 

[LarrySK8]

Adding a bit to my previous thought- Dave has repeatedly shown his dislike for the USFS as an organization and for some of the people inside of it. He’s had press credentials given to him and then taken away by USFS, and skaters within US Skating have been told not to talk to him- I know this to be 100% true.

So, my question remains if he has an agenda the majority of the year against said people, why would he casually/subtly drop that judges are upset? He has nothing to lose at this point concerning any of them, since he really has nothing left, so I’m curious as to why he goes through all of this reporting only to not make comments to news outlets and then say something of this nature and NOT elaborate who they are.

and John was on TSL at least twice before for Worlds recaps. My point is maybe Dave is a flake, or he's mercenary.

 

[Tavi]

Adding a bit to my previous thought- Dave has repeatedly shown his dislike for the USFS as an organization and for some of the people inside of it. He’s had press credentials given to him and then taken away by USFS, and skaters within US Skating have been told not to talk to him- I know this to be 100% true.

So, my question remains if he has an agenda the majority of the year against said people, why would he casually/subtly drop that judges are upset? He has nothing to lose at this point concerning any of them, since he really has nothing left, so I’m curious as to why he goes through all of this reporting only to not make comments to news outlets and then say something of this nature and NOT elaborate who they are.

Maybe your premise - that his involvement is essentially insincere or for selfish reasons - is wrong.

 

[tony]

Maybe your premise - that his involvement is essentially insincere or for selfish reasons - is wrong.

He’s went on enough tangents concerning just about every single thing in the sport, especially the USFS, in the past. This isn’t me guessing anything- he’s shown this. He’s whined about skaters’ bodies, their packaging and costumes, their coaches and choreographers, the commentators, other people involved in the sport, and so on.

If he wants to do all of this reporting, which is great, then I question why all of a sudden there’s this wall of ‘I know it but I’m not saying more’, unless someone he’s acquainted with for inside info said something like ‘I bet the judges are furious now’ and he ran with it.

 

[babayaga]

When I mentioned TSL and Dave as one source where I heard some information about Medvedeva and Orser, I was immediately told that nobody takes them seriously and everyone knows that infomation provided by TSL is nothing more than gossip. Why is he discussed as a credible source all of the sudden?

 

[skateboy]

As I recall, Tran mentions John's demons. That seems rather provocative to me.

Tran also mentions his own demons.

 

[ilovepaydays]

and John was on TSL at least twice before for Worlds recaps. My point is maybe Dave is a flake, or he's mercenary.

Gymcastic interviewed Larry Nassar in 2013 and he was gushed over. That episode is still up as of right now. Obviously, Jessica O’Beirne has backtracked on how she feels about him and that interview since.

 

[MK's Winter]

Adding a bit to my previous thought- Dave has repeatedly shown his dislike for the USFS as an organization and for some of the people inside of it. He’s had press credentials given to him and then taken away by USFS, and skaters within US Skating have been told not to talk to him- I know this to be 100% true.

So, my question remains if he has an agenda the majority of the year against said people, why would he casually/subtly drop that judges are upset? He has nothing to lose at this point concerning any of them, since he really has nothing left, so I’m curious as to why he goes through all of this reporting only to not make comments to news outlets and then say something of this nature and NOT elaborate who they are.

My guess is that he is trying to get it out there to offer some type of awareness for the potential victim that is known in skating circles. For people to have an idea on why people do not want to report things. The cultural problems. He has never backed off these topics. Since day 1.

I was never a National competitor, I skated more for fun- I still speak to my former coach. And I can assure you- the fear of going against the empire is very real. Officials being angry about this- is real.

I’ve seen threats against TSL and Christine Brennan everywhere. I can only imagine what’s being sent to them both privately.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

Does anyone seem concerned that Dave Lease mentioned in the video with Christine that the judges are mad at an alleged victim, who is competing at nationals? I'm surprised nobody is talking about this alleged breach of judging ethics. If this is truly going on, then it does represent a dangerous systemic problem and toxic culture.

Many people have talked about this, here and elsewhere. But other than that one, unsubstantiated line from Dave, we have no additional information.

 

[tony]

My guess is that he is trying to get it out there to offer some type of awareness for the potential victim that is known in skating circles. For people to have an idea on why people do not want to report things. The cultural problems. He has never backed off these topics. Since day 1.

I was never a National competitor, I skated more for fun- I still speak to my former coach. And I can assure you- the fear of going against the empire is very real. Officials being angry about this- is real.

I’ve seen threats against TSL and Christine Brennan everywhere. I can only imagine what’s being sent to them both privately.

I saw your initial additional reply as well, so I’m going to comment on both. He’s already gone against the USFS and what does he think is going to happen if he steps it up here?

What I’m getting at is I don’t understand why he wanted to share this published information at first, as a way of making it ‘known’ and hopefully learning more about it, only to now be the very person that wants everyone to know he apparently *does* know more but won’t share it. It doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Tavi]

He’s went on enough tangents concerning just about every single thing in the sport, especially the USFS, in the past. This isn’t me guessing anything- he’s shown this. He’s whined about skaters’ bodies, their packaging and costumes, their coaches and choreographers, the commentators, other people involved in the sport, and so on.

If he wants to do all of this reporting, which is great, then I question why all of a sudden there’s this wall of ‘I know it but I’m not saying more’, unless someone he’s acquainted with for inside info said something like ‘I bet the judges are furious now’ and he ran with it.

I don’t have time to go back and listen right now, but to me it sounded like he was expressing concern at the situation, not for any other reason.

 

[Coco]

Before the Aunt Joyce blog, he was faking interviews with famous gymnasts on different message boards. He read interviews with these gymnasts and based on their actual responses, kind of guessed what they would have said if he would have been able to ask them a slightly different question.

It's always been about attention and prestige for him. Gossip >Truth for him, which isn't to say that he's not right some of the time.

 

[aftershocks]

IMO, Christine Brennan is a solid, professional journalist. Dave Lease is not. That said, I don't always agree with Brennan's approach or with her assessments, and she also seems to be aggressively opportunistic in how she covers certain topics. However, she's at least professional and she apparently follows the rules and guidelines of her profession. Lease OTOH has crossed the line too many times in berating and making fun of people in skating. He's recently been trying or at least pretending to smooth over his approach to covering the sport, but he's still never owned up to nor apologized for his mistakes. Instead, he blocks all forms of criticism. He only wants to receive praise and adulation. Lease seems to fancy himself as the Walter Winchell of figure skating (the powerful 1950s era gossip columnist who during the McCarthy era willfully destroyed people's careers with the popular platform he controlled in newspapers of that time). I do not want Dave Lease leading any kind of charge to reform the ills of figure skating. He needs to acknowledge and address his own faults first.

Lease has a following partly because he tries to be the first at breaking news and being in the know about everything, especially scandalous news. With his gossipy approach, his groupies and his insider enablers, he has often tended to create controversies and negativity. USFS needs to make an effort to become more transparent, and to freely allow more in-depth and critical coverage of pressing issues, instead of ceding that territory to Lease's snarky purview.

Regarding SafeSport, from what I see at this point, the investigation was mishandled. Lease and Brennan said that SafeSport is understaffed and underfunded. Then why was such an entity allowed to conduct any kind of investigation into sexual misconduct in any sport!? Lease should stop equating Nassar's behavior with the allegations against Coughlin, in the absence of any confirmed evidence. Lease is also out of bounds in his claim that fs fans are at fault for pointing fingers at gymnastics due to Nassar's horrendous behavior, while being surprised by the allegations against Coughlin. I hope everyone realizes sexual misconduct is not the fault of any particular sport, but that all sports should be diligent in addressing such behavior within their ranks. In the same self-serving breath, Lease seems to blame John Coughlin for taking his life. Lease's reasoning is that Coughlin should have waited it out because some SafeSport investigations ultimately resulted in the accused being exonerated after having been suspended. But by that point, anyone accused who was later exonerated, was already facing living the rest of their life with a damaged reputation. That's now of course, a moot point since Coughlin is dead.

Unfortunately, I do not think USFS can adequately handle the enormity of this situation. But neither do we need Dave Lease leading the charge either! Please I hope someone responsible and respected can be brought in to help assess the next step to take. I hope the next step will be, as I said after the end of January, that a full and complete investigation is undertaken, and that the results are documented and revealed. There should also be research conducted and an announcement of reforms implemented to effectively address such complaints. At this point in time, I think counseling should ensue immediately for everyone, including all coaches, and all skaters currently competing.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

I still speak to my former coach. And I can assure you- the fear of going against the empire is very real. Officials being angry about this- is real.

Coaches I know have also told me stuff that would curl your toes. If it were just one coach saying such things, I might discount it, but it's not just one.

I believe Dave on this one, although I do want more backup re: sources. Until he states that he at least has a reputable source, this comes across more as gossip than as fact. It's that his style of presentation sets it up as gossip, as "I'm special so I heard but I can't tell you", rather than as being something that we should really believe.

I do not think that it's "the judges" who feel this way. It's not all of them. I do believe that it could be some of them.

 

[MK's Winter]

I saw your initial additional reply as well, so I’m going to comment on both. He’s already gone against the USFS and what does he think is going to happen if he steps it up here?

What I’m getting at is I don’t understand why he wanted to share this published information at first, as a way of making it ‘known’ and hopefully learning more about it, only to now be the very person that wants everyone to know he apparently *does* know more but won’t share it. It doesn’t make sense to me.

I deleted the first response because I needed to think about it more. It wasn’t well written.

Published information- if you are referring to the the interim suspension, I have to ask: don’t you think parents should have had the choice to decide for their kids? It’s published information. He has covered gymnastics similarly. He did with Alex Naddour, John Geddert, and Richard Callaghan.

I’m sure he has sources. He stated an former athlete altered him to it. I’m sure they alert him to other things. I’m sure in certain situations- if he puts the info- he puts out his source. Would you put a coach/competitor/or anyone else involved into the lions den?

 

[laviemn]

If judges were overheard speaking about being angry at John's accuser who is competing at Nationals, I'd rather that be brought to light than not.

Dave said he was told this by a former judge he did not name. This person would have more credibility in reporting this to USFS than Dave, and I hope they have done so.

ETA: Perhaps his source, the former judge, has asked him not to reveal names because that would make their identity obvious. I've seen Dave do his coy insinuations about info he won't reveal before, but it was about fluffier subjects. On this subject, he's been sober and serious from the beginning.

 

[tony]

I deleted the first response because I needed to think about it more. It wasn’t well written.

Published information- if you are referring to the the interim suspension, I have to ask: don’t you think parents should have had the choice to decide for their kids? It’s published information. He has covered gymnastics similarly. He did with Alex Naddour, John Geddert, and Richard Callaghan.

I’m sure he has sources. He stated an former athlete altered him to it. I’m sure they alert him to other things. I’m sure in certain situations- if he puts the info- he puts out his source. Would you put a coach/competitor/or anyone else involved into the lions den?

The ‘published information’ was part of a long sentence, meaning why share that as a way of bringing it to the attention of many people in the sport as a means of getting some answers and then raising more questions with his own comments?

@GarrAargHrumph has already replied a few posts above sharing the same view regarding the way it’s presented.

 

[Tavi]

If you guys want to bash bash Dave Lease / TSL, could you please go the TSL thread and do it there? I think it’s really inappropriate here.

 

[puglover]

I personally doubt that SafeSport will take this any further unless they find/have found evidence of systemic issues or mandated people not reporting significant things they knew about or should have known about. With John not able to speak for himself, I just don't see what could be accomplished anyway. I do hope there are some positives that can eventually come from this other than money in lawyers pockets (I say that affectionately as one of my sons is a lawyer). I hope USFS and all skating federations, for that matter, take a long look at the culture that is there even if it has gone on for eons. Protections need to be in place. If SafeSport is receiving 85 reports a month, we had probably better be prepared for more painful situations. I have taught sunday school for decades and now can't teach my 10/11 year olds without another adult present. Just the times we live in, for good and for bad.

 

[MK's Winter]

The coaches I know have also told me stuff that would curl your toes. If it were just one person, I might discount it, but it's not just one. I myself have also heard some things that judges have said while I've been there that can be a bit woah.

Like you, based on past experience, I believe Dave on this one, although I do ask for backup re: sources. Until he states that he at least has a reputable source, this comes across more as gossip than as fact. It's that his style of presentation sets it up as gossip, as "I'm special so I heard but I can't tell you", rather than as being something that we should really believe.

I do not think that it's "the judges" who feel this way. It's not all of them. I do believe that it could be some of them.

I can relate. It’s not all of them but it should be none of them.

Presentation is presentation. He has never changed his delivery so at least he’s consistent. He can’t give up sources. It would have consequences.