Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

[VGThuy]

I agree. I am not arguing that the behavior was justified. I am arguing about the motivation of the person who created the list and those who retweeted it. I personally think that the argument that it was created by a fan to discredit skaters they did not like or that it was primarily ego-driven does not explain the motivation. It does not match what I have read on social media. That does not mean I condone the list, those who created it, or those who distributed it, or that I am seeking to exonerate them on the ground of being survivors sexual abuse or friends/family.

I think it is important to understand the motivation because I think it points to a desperation of individuals in the abuse community to see change. In my opinion, it is why it is important to have the discussion we are having in this thread. I believe most of us are hoping to find better ways to simultaneously respect the complainants, protect the athletes working with the accused, and protect the rights of the accused.

I'm just going to post what I personally have observed from some (not all) of the Twitter users who have been attacking skaters on the list. I think for some of those people, there is certainly sort of ego involved. Obviously not everyone and also even if it is, I do acknowledge the viewpoint in which they are viewing it as people can have complex motivations. They want to be seen as staunch and loud advocates for the cause. It doesn't make them wrong in this instance, and it's a great cause to advocate for as the movement needs advocates. However, the people I was talking about are certain posters I've observed who are continuing behavior I noticed before this whole incident. Some people really like having a following on social media and being the person to lead that following and use their clique to attack people via SM. I see it happening on figure skating fandoms on social media outside of this context and the same people are now involved with calling skaters out and such. When I made my post, I wasn't talking about all people. That said, I do wonder how seeing it through the lens of a sexual assault victim and therefore anointing themselves as someone who will take the skaters to task for anything they wrote that would be positive towards Coughlin has some ego involved and maybe they are using this to get a sort of justice they felt denied. Many women who are victims of sexual assault (stats show a high likelihood) and felt unheard as well, but not everyone engaged in that behavior, so I think there are other motivations involved.

 

[MsZem]

The only cases I have been able to find where a man’s life has been ruined by false accusations are when black men have been accused by white women. I am fairly sure there is another dynamic at play there.

The satanic panic/childcare sexual abuse cases from the 1980s ruined a lot of lives. Obviously that, too, is a very different dynamic.

There's a list of Innocence Project exonerees here. Black men are indeed disproportionately represented. The US, as we know, has a troubling history when it comes to accusations against black men; they appear to be over-represented in Title IX cases, too.

 

[LarrySK8]

One of the accusers is an adult - the first person to complain. Maybe they will be truly brave, supported, etc and come forward of their own volition.

Who knows?

 

[VGThuy]

The satanic panic/childcare sexual abuse cases from the 1980s ruined a lot of lives. Obviously that, too, is a very different dynamic.

There's a list of Innocence Project exonerees here. Black men are indeed disproportionately represented. The US, as we know, has a troubling history when it comes to accusations against black men; they appear to be over-represented in Title IX cases, too.

Thanks for posting those links to the Innocence Project. I think it's really difficult on a social justice level to navigate this because we want victims to feel free to come forward, be encouraged to file complaints, and to not be silenced or shamed as women often are when they come forward with allegations of a sexual misconduct/assault against seemingly "good" men. However, we also want to protect the accused as well because we also know what lack of proper due process can result in and how it has disproportionately affected black/latino men. That said, I guess this particular case, it's sort of hard for me to feel Coughlin was deprived of anything because he would have received (if he did not already) a chance to tell his story and maintain his innocence and fight the charges once the investigation reached the next stage (AND once law enforcement got involved and he would go through the legal criminal process).

 

[Tinami Amori]

Is it really true that young boys and girls are harassed pretty commonly by coaches, partners, and officials?

imo.. in USA, ice and roller skating, my experience has been: teenage boys and male coaches in their 20's, 30's, 40's are exposed to your "cute young butt and boobs in tights and skimpy dresses". Not only that in some instances they have to make contact with your body, and be within 10 cm of your rear-end ....
https://steemitimages.com/DQmS9PJYb...98750dd389174--ice-skating-figure-skating.jpg

So, yes, their brains and bodies process the image in front of them... and yet it does not mean they should act on it... but some do at least in a mild form, and then you let them know (as clear as possible) that if they do it again, they may lose an ovum.

But then some of us, "innocent girls", do have crushes on our coaches or fellow skaters...

 

[overedge]

Just curious, does SafeSport's mandate include investigating systemic failures/problems? @el henry's point about investigating "skating club X" makes me wonder if SafeSport can do system-wide investigations, even if they aren't precipitated by a single complaint. Or is it restricted to resolving complaints about specific incidents, and can only act on the basis of receiving a complaint?

 

[skateboy]

Of the small percentage of false accusations most fall into a few very specific categories and are cleared up long before a life is ruined - and this is especially the case when the accused is a well loved white male. Heck, even those found guilty are often let off with a slap on the wrist.

The only cases I have been able to find where a man’s life has been ruined by false accusations are when black men have been accused by white women. I am fairly sure there is another dynamic at play there.

I'm going to chime in here, as I did know someone whose life was ruined because of false accusations of sexual misconduct.

I knew someone (a private music teacher) accused of sexual misconduct. He was a gay white male, well-liked, very friendly and effusively hugged everyone... family, friends, children, students. He was arrested because, as it turned out, a young student told a schoolteacher that his music teacher "touched him" all the time and the child didn't like it, so it was reported to the police. The case went to court and the negative publicity was relentless.

Finally, the teacher was completely exonerated of all charges, as the only thing he was "guilty" of was hugging the kid, and there was never any malicious or salacious intent behind the actions. But the damage had been done. The teacher's life was ruined because of the very public scandal, fired from everything, labeled as a child molester, couldn't get another job, shunned from friends, ended up penniless. He didn't commit suicide, but his spirit for living was killed, he died young (developed cancer and was gone shortly afterward). It was obvious, even before the illness, that the quality of his life had become unbearable.

I'm not taking "sides" here... just wanted to share a story of a case where one's being wrongly accused really did completely destroy his life. It does happen.

 

[MsZem]

Thanks for posting those links to the Innocence Project. I think it's really difficult on a social justice level to navigate this because we want victims to feel free to come forward, be encouraged to file complaints, and to not be silenced or shamed as women often are when they come forward with allegations of a sexual misconduct/assault against seemingly "good" men. However, we also want to protect the accused as well because we also know what lack of proper due process can result in and how it has disproportionately affected black/latino men. That said, I guess this particular case, it's sort of hard for me to feel Coughlin was deprived of anything because he would have received (if he did not already) a chance to tell his story and maintain his innocence and fight the charges once the investigation reached the next stage (AND once law enforcement got involved and he would go through the legal criminal process).

Yes, I agree. Clearly Coughlin struggled with the investigation and its implications, but he at least had some advantages and protections that others did not. I recommended "Devil in the Grove" in the book tread recently; the case detailed in that book is horrifying.

I struggle sometimes with "believe survivors" because it is still important to protect the rights of the accused. I feel like it's vital that we respect survivors, listen to them, assume good faith - and investigate thoroughly to arrive at a just outcome. I wish this had been done from the outset in the Larry Nassar case. I don't feel like it happened when Christine Blasey Ford came forward. I do think it's what SafeSport was trying to do here.

 

[Wyliefan]

I sometimes wonder if "take survivors seriously" would be better wording.

 

[her grace]

Neither the PSA statement or the USFS tweets have even mentioned the alleged victims. Not a good look at all and definitely gives the appearance of rugsweeping.

 

[VGThuy]

I didn’t see the USFS one but I did see the PSA one and it was horribly worded and at best tone deaf. A reasonable reading made it sound like they were going on a mission against anyone filing complaints. It was awful in every way imaginable.

 

[ballettmaus]

I might use the example of murder suicides. The family of the murder victim is grieving. The family of the murder victim may want “justice” or “closure” whatever that means to them. (Not trying to belittle it, just saying it has different meanings). But the state will not prosecute the person who committed suicide and is not going to leave that investigation open.

I think this is a bad comparison. In murder-suicide we know that a crime was committed and who committed it and prosecution is not the same as an investigation. But as far as I know, authorities will leave the case open until it's confirmed that it was indeed a murder-suicide. Here, we don't know if a crime or an offense was committed. Is it really fair to the accusers to not pursue the matter further? Is it fair to the family of the accused? Don't they both deserve to learn the truth?
If he's innocent, doesn't the family deserve to have his name cleared? And, maybe even more importantly, if he is guilty, don't the victims deserve to have it known that they were telling the truth, especially considering how difficult coming forward is and how victims of sexual misconduct struggle with being believed?

 

[mag]

I'm going to chime in here, as I did know someone whose life was ruined because of false accusations of sexual misconduct.

I knew someone (a private music teacher) accused of sexual misconduct. He was a gay white male, well-liked, very friendly and effusively hugged everyone... family, friends, children, students. He was arrested because, as it turned out, a young student told a schoolteacher that his music teacher "touched him" all the time and the child didn't like it, so it was reported to the police. The case went to court and the negative publicity was relentless.

Finally, the teacher was completely exonerated of all charges, as the only thing he was "guilty" of was hugging the kid, and there was never any malicious or salacious intent behind the actions. But the damage had been done. The teacher's life was ruined because of the very public scandal, fired from everything, labeled as a child molester, couldn't get another job, shunned from friends, ended up penniless. He didn't commit suicide, but his spirit for living was killed, he died young (developed cancer and was gone shortly afterward). It was obvious, even before the illness, that the quality of his life had become unbearable.

I'm not taking "sides" here... just wanted to share a story of a case where one's being wrongly accused really did completely destroy his life. It does happen.

That is horrifying story and I feel like I am not explaining myself very well. I am not suggesting it okay for people to be wrongly accused or that it doesn’t happen or that lives don’t get ruined. I am just saying that in order to make decisions about resources (and time and energy spent in discussions are resource allocations) looking a risk is important.

To give a ridiculous example: say you are the one person in charge of all the money the US will spend for safety education. You decide that you are very concerned with shark attacks because you know someone who was attacked. You decide to put 90% of your resources into preventing shark attacks. Now you have never had an automobile accident so you don’t understand what all the concern is about automobile deaths so you put only 10% of your resources into preventing auto accidents. Would that be reasonable?

This goes beyond just this case. It seems to me that whenever there is accusation of abuse we get a group of people who immediately go to the false accusation place. It happened here, it happened with Christine Blasey Ford, it happens all the time and it seems to me that it is technique used to muddy the waters and prevent a valuable discussion from taking place. It also send the message that complainants should not be taken seriously.

I sometimes wonder if "take survivors seriously" would be better wording.

This might be a more helpful way of discussing this issue.

 

[caitie]

I didn’t see the USFS one but I did see the PSA one and it was horribly worded and at best tone deaf. A reasonable reading made it sound like they were going on a mission against anyone filing complaints. It was awful in every way imaginable.

It really was. I cannot believe it is still up. I’ve never even seen a “ratio” on Instagram until that post.

Nationals is normally my favorite competition of the year to follow, but right now I’m just kind of nervous about how much worse and more callous skaters and officials will be about the situation. And with Christine and Dave and other ppl reporting on it and asking skaters questions... like, I’m bracing myself for how badly it’s gonna go.

 

[Golden1]

I find "the list" to be helpful. In my life I try to only support people who have the same moral values that I have. It's easy to support women's rights when it's about posting nice quotes on "women's day", using the "#metoo" hashtag or going to the women's march and posting nice photos holding funny signs. However, people really show their true colors when someone they know and love is involved. To me, that's what happened here and now I know who to support and who not to support in the future. I'm aware that they don't care about some random figure skating fan all the way over in Europe, but I do, and that's enough for me.

I try to put myself in the victim's shoes and it hurts. Imagining that I was abused (in whatever way) by my boss and I took this matter to management. My boss gets suspended, my name gets leaked and the boss commits suicide. Now all my coworkers, the other supervisors, people from other companies, basically everyone in my field of work grieve openly, write and talk about what an awesome guy he was, how he will be missed and how awful it is that such a tragedy happened to him. They know what he did and write these things anyway. Maybe they learned about the accusations later on but still decided to keep their posts up. They basically picked sides and decided who to believe more or maybe who matters more. How alone and desperate would I be? These three victims were (allegedly) abused first, then had to go through the investigation process and now this. I can't imagine how they feel right now and hope desperately that they have a strong support network and know that many people keep them in their thoughts.

So, in my opinion, all the skaters are totally allowed to grieve openly on social media but they should be aware that by using instagram, twitter etc. you send a message to the public and that the public can then choose what to do with this message.

 

[PRlady]

One more nasty aspect. I’ve had three acquaintances ask me about this because they knew I’m a FS fan, and they all assumed the victims were boys. Because all male figure skaters are gay, of course. So in addition to the other issues, let’s add some homophobic assumptions.

 

[rfisher]

I think this is a bad comparison. In murder-suicide we know that a crime was committed and who committed it and prosecution is not the same as an investigation. But as far as I know, authorities will leave the file open until it's confirmed that it was indeed a murder-suicide. Here, we don't know if a crime or an offense was committed. Is it really fair to the accusers to not pursue the matter further? Is it fair to the family of the accused? Don't they both deserve to learn the truth?I
If he's innocent, doesn't the family deserve to have his name cleared? And, maybe even more importantly, if he is guilty, don't the victims deserve to have it known that they were telling the truth, especially considering how difficult coming forward is and how victims of sexual misconduct struggle with being believed?

I'm sorry, but the only parties with rights here at this point are the three who filed a complaint. It's harsh, but families don't have any legal rights at all as John was an adult. I highly doubt a lawyer would consider filing a civil case on their behalf against SafeSport as they followed published protocols. Other than that, they aren't relevant. It may sound harsh, but it's the reality. And, the three accusers don't have any real rights at this point either except to privacy or if they opted to cede their privacy and file a civil suit against his estate. If there were criminal charges pending, they no longer exist. John terminated much more than his life. SafeSport will only go further if evidence indicates there were other parties involved.

 

[believed]

So, in my opinion, all the skaters are totally allowed to grieve openly on social media but they should be aware that by using instagram, twitter etc. you send a message to the public and that the public can then choose what to do with this message.

I think this is a very good way of stating it.

 

[ballettmaus]

I'm sorry, but the only parties with rights here at this point are the three who filed a complaint. It's harsh, but families don't have any legal rights at all as John was an adult. I highly doubt a lawyer would consider filing a civil case on their behalf against SafeSport as they followed published protocols. Other than that, they aren't relevant. It may sound harsh, but it's the reality.

Be that as it may, I still think that both parties deserve to learn the truth and that it would be unfair to either side to stop the investigation simply because Coughlin decided to commit suicide.
They may not have a right to it but I still think that they'd deserve it.

 

[Rukia]

But the problem with just making a blanket judgement of skaters off a trash list is too black and white for me. I mean on a scale from Delilah Sappenfield to Mervin Tran, some of those people on the list were much closer to Mervin than Delilah, but they're still getting called trash.

 

[VGThuy]

I understand if they posted tributes and left them on there after the information came out, and discussing it with them. I see the value in seeing a list of people who made comments undermining the victims and are actually campaigning to silence or shame them. But I don’t agree with painting all of the skaters in a broad brush the way that list did, giving no context to what was posted and when, and painting them all as “Trash skaters” when some of them didn’t do anything for you to misdirect your anger for and calling them enablers. Especially when some of them did not post anything permanent or made any comment against the accusers. That list was inflammatory and contained incomplete information and was editorializing. It wasn’t just a simple list of facts. It took away their humanity and painted their actions as worse than it was. I get if simply posting a black screen that would show up on your IG story for 24 hours is enough to make you mad but a lot of people attacking these skaters accused them of doing things they didn’t do because they didn’t get a chance to read it. All they had to go on was a list and they let their imaginations run wild.

 

[overedge]

But the problem with just making a blanket judgement of skaters off a trash list is too black and white for me. I mean on a scale from Delilah Sappenfield to Mervin Tran, some of those people on the list were much closer to Mervin than Delilah, but they're still getting called trash.

This. If the list included people who explicitly stated their thoughts & prayers, or whatever, without acknowledging the victims, then it would have some veneer of respectability. But listing people who liked "thoughts & prayers" posts without making a post of their own, and listing people who posted something like a black screen with no comments, is completely wrong IMO.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

I think that skaters who posted their grief and memories did not mean to choose sides or intimidate the accuser. But still, they should realize that the way they talk about John could make her and others like her feel outnumbered or afraid. If they hadn't thought of that before, they surely have now so I guess that is a lesson learned. If it has lost them fans, so be it.

I don't think the people who compiled the list meant to make the situation more difficult for the accuser, either. But they also should consider that attacking her friends and colleagues will likely make her feel even more isolated and uncomfortable. How much harder is it going to be for her to step into a locker room or on the ice this week knowing she'll be around people who have been called stupid c*nts and child abusers on her behalf? When victims often say they didn't come forward because they didn't want to ruin someone's life or have their friends and family hate them for causing trouble, won't creating trash lists and verbally harassing or shaming bystanders also make some victims think it's best that they keep quiet?

I guess I see a lot of people all around putting their own wants and needs over what might be most helpful to the accusers.

 

[Prancer]

I think the level of concern should at least be within a reasonable margin of the level of risk.

If you are talking about things like allocation of resources, sure; I don't disagree with that at all. That's what statistics are for. But assuming that X is guilty of Y because false reports are rare--which is also something we have seen here--is not justice for victims.

I sometimes wonder if "take survivors seriously" would be better wording.

I think that would be a much better way to put it, or something along the lines of "accusers need to be heard and their accusations need to be thoroughly investigated." But that's not particularly easy to say.

So, in my opinion, all the skaters are totally allowed to grieve openly on social media but they should be aware that by using instagram, twitter etc. you send a message to the public and that the public can then choose what to do with this message.

While that's true, I think for many people, social media is both public and personal and a part of their normal social interaction. I don't think most people think of it as "my message is going out to the world," although I am sure that some of them will now.

 

[missing]

Be that as it may, I still think that both parties deserve to learn the truth and that it would be unfair to either side to stop the investigation simply because Coughlin decided to commit suicide.
They may not have a right to it but I still think that they'd deserve it.

I wonder how many people would be voicing the desire for a full investigation if John Coughlin (or any accused person) died in a plane crash or from a quick, horrible disease.

No truth can be learned without a full hearing of both sides. That has been rendered impossible.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I wonder how many people would be voicing the desire for a full investigation if John Coughlin (or any accused person) died in a plane crash or from a quick, horrible disease.

No truth can be learned without a full hearing of both sides. That has been rendered impossible.

HUH? The issue is not that he died, it is that he was smeared before and publicly flogged without any kind of due process.

 

[carriecmu0503]

It’s not that I disagree with you, I do understand what you are saying here. The thing is though:

1) It often falls on the victim or other victims of such cases to conduct this dialogue and that isn’t fair to them. They have enough on their plates. They shouldn’t be expected to make other people understand their pain. Not when they are the ones who are suffering. Skaters and coaches should be expected to educate themselves or the various federations need to start running sensitivity seminars or something. Do they not already have them?

2) A lot of people have pointed out what these skaters have done wrong. Most skaters have chosen to ignore this if not deleting of outright defending. When multiple people are telling you that something you are doing is wrong, if your default is to make like an ostrich, then how does one discuss anything with you?

2) This is the age of the internet. You can do read about sexual harassment/assault victims and their plight. These skaters along with us witnessed the situation with Larry Nassar, through the Me Too movement. Did they learn nothing from it?

People aren’t entirely mad just because these skaters came out to grieve and praise Coughlin. It’s because despite being told why they were wrong, they’re either busy protecting Coughlin or each other.

I’ve seen that some skaters have liked nearly every post mourning or talking about how wonderful Coughlin was. Even a post that states how it’s a pity that the next generation won’t have him for a mentor. This after the allegations were known.

I mean, we’ve gone from perhaps genuine lack of understanding to wilful tonedeafness.

I’m sorry to you and everyone else if I’m coming off as rude or harsh or heavey handed. That isn’t my intention. But I am disappointed and maybe a little tired. This is a battle I’ve been fighting for a long time. But with every case of assault, I see the same behaviour over and over, praise for the accused and anger/ignorance/shame towards the accuser.

Allegations. Not conviction. Why are you essentially advocating for everybody to treat John as if he was convicted? Further, there was nothing reported anywhere to suggest that John assaulted anybody. He was under investigation for misconduct, not assault. To suggest that people

A year isn't that long within the context of a lifetime and I would expect that Coughlin had at least enough money to live on for a year as a successful elite figure skater.

That is quite a large assumption. Are you privy to what is in his back account? This is someone who has not competed in 5 years, never made an Olympic team, and skated US pairs. Not exactly a hotbed for lucrative endorsements.

I think his reputation could have been restored had the allegations been deemed without merit, especially given that (as indicated by this thread) people who know him are more likely than not to disbelieve the allegations.

Tell that to the court of public opinion.

And one might say that John made a choice to commit suicide, a very tragic choice - rather than was driven to it and had no choice. Unless he suffered from severe depression already, which I don't think is the case.

What position are you in to know what his mental health state was? Again, another very large assumption.

@carriecmu0503, you sound as if you are blaming the alleged victims who came forward and social media for ruining John's life, which is twisted thinking.

I see you completely omitted the part of my post where I stated that sexual assault is traumatic, that while some people move past it, they never get over it, and that those convicted of sexual assault should face severe consequences. I absolutely did not blame anyone for coming forward; merely, I stated that all facts should be looked at and a thorough investigation competed before jumping to conclusions.

If John was innocent, it is a real shame he didn't stay alive and fight to clear his name.

If he had been cleared, but it wasn't desirable or feasible for him to stay in the skating world, he was young enough to forge a new career for himself.

Yeah, that is WAY easier said than done when skating is literally the only thing you have ever known. How would you feel if you were wrongly accused of something and had everything you ever known ripped away from you? Again, I do not know if John is guilty or not. None of us do, because none of us have any facts of substance to make any kind of judgement on.

 

[caseyedwards]

I don't see how accepting false accusations helps abuse victims.

If 99 out of 100 accusations are true and one out of 100 are false, it does not make an accused person 99% guilty or even 99% likely to be guilty.

It's one thing to address a systemic problem, IMO, but another to say that you have no concerns for the unjustly accused because they represent such a small statistical sample that who cares?



None of that innocent until proven guilty or shades of gray nonsense for you, eh?

That’s not what SafeSport is about! The system of SafeSport assumes anyone accused is guilty and is an evil monster

 

[leafygreens]

How convenient. I hope that, at the very least, safeSport continue a general investigation into the alleged widespread culture of sexual abuse, intimidation, bullying, alcohol/drug abuse related to sexual intimidation, etc. in US figure skating, including crap that goes on in hotels during events. John may be gone but those who observed and didn’t report on different cases are still around as rink managers, coaches, choreographers, skating partners, parents of skaters, p.r. agents, etc.

I actually would like to know whether Coughlin was guilty or not. I know we are likely to never find out, but I would like to know for sure before asking a question like "Did the skating culture in Pairs skating create an environment that was unsafe".

I've been reading the posts in both Coughlin's threads for a while and it seems that many believe he was guilty because there is some kind of general agreement that there is toxic culture in figure skating community. Is this true? Is this something everybody who has close ties to FS in the US knows, but nobody says anything? Is it really true that young boys and girls are harassed pretty commonly by coaches, partners, and officials?

I agree and it sounds like there is something that needs a closer look, beyond John.

Does anyone seem concerned that Dave Lease mentioned in the video with Christine that the judges are mad at an alleged victim, who is competing at nationals? I'm surprised nobody is talking about this alleged breach of judging ethics. If this is truly going on, then it does represent a dangerous systemic problem and toxic culture.

 

[overedge]

HUH? The issue is not that he died, it is that he was smeared before and publicly flogged without any kind of due process.

It's been explained to you multiple times that "due process" was being followed. Enough.