College administration bribery scandal

[WillyElliot]

Well, I understand the lawsuit. I think USC should be ordered to reimburse EVERY applicant last year. In my opinion that's the only tort in this case. They were 'wronged' by paying to apply to a school that accepts fraudulent applications. Sure they might only get their application fee reimbursed, but USC will feel it in the wallet if everyone not accepted gets their payment back. So it's not dollar signs that I think these people in the suit are going for, it's just to correct a wrong.

Has Olivia been expelled yet? I bet she's been told she's out and to save face she's going to say something like "Due to the disruptive environment my presence might cause, I have decided to withdraw..." or something like that.

 

[floridaice]

Because they could (to quote Bill Clinton). I can imagine it's hard to continue playing good/nice characters with everyone thinking about your scam. And it sounds like dear daughters are going to be leaving USC, and the "influencer" won't have very much influence for now.

I hardly think her daughter did much work to become an 'influencer' -- pretty sure Mommy & Daddy's money bought her all the help she needed and their connections inside the beauty and fashion industries helped more than just a little.

 

[Moto Guzzi]

Well, I understand the lawsuit. I think USC should be ordered to reimburse EVERY applicant last year. In my opinion that's the only tort in this case. They were 'wronged' by paying to apply to a school that accepts fraudulent applications. Sure they might only get their application fee reimbursed, but USC will feel it in the wallet if everyone not accepted gets their payment back. So it's not dollar signs that I think these people in the suit are going for, it's just to correct a wrong.

Has Olivia been expelled yet? I bet she's been told she's out and to save face she's going to say something like "Due to the disruptive environment my presence might cause, I have decided to withdraw..." or something like that.

According to this article, she doesn't plan to return.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebr...-college-bribery-scam/ar-BBUPriU?ocid=UP94DHP

 

[attyfan]

It might be the time and effort they put in based on a fraud ... the schools repressented that "to get in,this is what you do ...." and that representation proved to be false. Their damages might be based on what they could have done if they knew that cheating would be rewarded.

 

[Skittl1321]

So these lawsuits people are filing now because they were not accepted at the schools that have been named in this scheme .... how could they ever prove that this 'bribe and cheat scheme' was "the only reason" they were rejected? They could have been rejected for any number of reasons completely unrelated to this scheme. Just because you got rejected from USC doesn't mean it was specifically because Loughlin and hubby bribed their daughters way in. Not sure I could ever vote for that argument if I was on a jury. Just sayin' .....

I didn't think they were sueing because this is "the reason that they didn't get in" but because they paid a fee to be considered for admission in a fraudulent process.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I didn't think they were sueing because this is "the reason that they didn't get in" but because they paid a fee to be considered for admission in a fraudulent process.

I'm still not buying it. This kind of crap is why people say the current system needs an overhaul. The only people who have a valid reason for claiming damages are the top of the wait list. They most definitely were screwed out of their spot. Everyone else that didn't join in on the fraud would have still ended up where they are now and presumably had as equal a chance as anyone else who applied fairly. They weren't hurt by a damned thing.

 

[Prancer]

One of my friends' kids was just accepted to MIT (the first of what I am sure will be an avalanche of acceptance letters) and the first thing I thought was, "It's a good thing they aren't rich or everyone would be looking askance."

Everyone is going to be suspect now.

 

[puglover]

I can certainly understand the pain and anger felt by many over these despicable acts of fraud. Perhaps I am jaded but I can't say I am terribly surprised that corruption exists in college application processes. Of greater concern to me though is all of the absolutely horrible, indefensible comments made on social media and comment sections about those involved. If found guilty, they should be punished by law. Better safeguards should be applied to prevent this from continuing to happen, or at least, to this extent.

The "hatred" expressed is way over the top and maybe it is just a few nuts with a computer but it is a very troubling to me.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I'm still trying to figure out how responsible the actual colleges are though. Did they have missing fraud controls or were they following reasonable fraud standards at the time? There are always changes to security after something like this to try to keep it from happening again. And I don't think we should hold people to the standard no one knew we should have before this.

Because for the most part, this was all masterminded by someone who was bribing individuals to fake records. How much of that can we reasonably have expected the schools to be able to uncover on their own?

I know an auditor for the local community college. I'm fascinated by the how and why of fraud so I'm curious to ask her what changes she sees coming down the road once they unravel all the details and set new standards.

ETA: Here is an article that broke down the two basic types of fraud used in these schemes.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admissions-scheme-how-it-worked/index.html

I don't think the schools would have had much control over the test scores. They get what's reported to them and they wouldn't be able to do much else but accept them. The bribes to the administrators and athletics coaches are where the schools themselves could have had control over what happened.

 

[BaileyCatts]

...... Sure they might only get their application fee reimbursed, but USC will feel it in the wallet if everyone not accepted gets their payment back. ......

I actually could get a little behind this argument .... refunding application fees but only from schools where it was proven fact in this Operation Varsity Blues case that students bought their way in (like Lori's kids at USC). But on the other hand, you just know there are lots more kids out there whose parents side-doored their way in and they just didn't get caught, so I'm kind of 50/50 on this. However I don't see it hurting the schools at all. They will just start raising tuition rates to make up the difference so it will still be the students who didn't cheat who pay the price.

 

[bardtoob]

Good to know it's not just US healthcare that is f*cked, but also your education system.

Last I checked, your country had the highest per capita debt of any country in the world.

 

[overedge]

Last I checked, your country had the highest per capita debt of any country in the world.

Even if that is so, it doesn't negate the reality that the US has very screwed up health care and education systems.

 

[bardtoob]

Even if that is so, it doesn't negate the reality that the US has very screwed up health care and education systems.

The US ALWAYS[\B] had a messed up education system. It used to be even more classist.

... I know because I was 18 during my freshman year of undergrad and 27 during my sophomore year because of cost and lack of access to financial aid.

 

[overedge]

The US ALWAYS[\B] had a messed up education system. It used to be even more classist.

Which still has nothing to do with per capita debt in other countries.

 

[bardtoob]

Which still has nothing to do with per capita debt in other countries.

What did they spend it on? Maybe healthcare and education ... What other public services are there ... Except ridiculous defense spending.

 

[el henry]

The US system has not always been messed up, which is what frustrates me greatly.

In the mid 70s, room and board at Penn was about 8k per year. My father’s salary was 8K per year. I know all this because I was the one filling out all the forms; my parents did not have the knowledge to do so.

I graduated from Penn four years after I enrolled owing ..... zero! Nothing, nada. Now I did work at work study jobs. I also worked “real” jobs. Them’s the breaks when you’re first gen, I worked all through high school, I didn’t know any better.

Pell grants, PHEAA grants, grants grants grants. The US once paid for education. It was a wonderful thing! An investment in the future! and it wasn’t just me, everyone I knew in my situation (which weren’t many, granted) had the same.

ETA: probably schools without endowments or resources like Penn could not contribute as much, but PHEAA and Pell was there if you qualified.

I cry for what we have now

 

[MacMadame]

The bribes to the administrators and athletics coaches are where the schools themselves could have had control over what happened.

And where they could have liability.

When you think about how the law works, the gal who had a nervous breakdown can show real damages. A lot of other people won't be able to. They still got into good colleges and will probably have a successful life. Without damages, a jury might find for them but they won't get much of anything so it's less likely a lawyer will take the case.

I think what will end up happening is that there will be a class action suit and everyone who applied but didn't get in to one of the schools will be eligible for the class. In the end, maybe they'll get the equivalent of their admission fees back but mostly likely it will be less than that. But the schools will be punished and the lawyers will make some money.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Yes if you are having a mental breakdown well you have other problems.

One of the biggest life lessons I have learned in the last few years is to focus on the areas of your life you can control rather than what you cannot.

You can control doing your best to getting good scores and good grades that will get you in somewhere maybe scholarship.

And I don’t think kids life should be all over scheduled over stressed etc.

https://mystudentvoices.com/the-shadow-side-to-being-an-asian-american-over-achiever-94d6eb818147

Way too true.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I'm still trying to figure out how responsible the actual colleges are though. Did they have missing fraud controls or were they following reasonable fraud standards at the time? There are always changes to security after something like this to try to keep it from happening again. And I don't think we should hold people to the standard no one knew we should have before this.

Because for the most part, this was all masterminded by someone who was bribing individuals to fake records. How much of that can we reasonably have expected the schools to be able to uncover on their own?

I know an auditor for the local community college. I'm fascinated by the how and why of fraud so I'm curious to ask her what changes she sees coming down the road once they unravel all the details and set new standards.

ETA: Here is an article that broke down the two basic types of fraud used in these schemes.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admissions-scheme-how-it-worked/index.html

I don't think the schools would have had much control over the test scores. They get what's reported to them and they wouldn't be able to do much else but accept them. The bribes to the administrators and athletics coaches are where the schools themselves could have had control over what happened.

Reality check. A kid with a B- average in school does no score 1760 on the SAT
It is like a little clue!

 

[bardtoob]

Reality check. A kid with a B- average in school does no score 1760 on the SAT
It is like a little clue!

I knew one kid who did in my high school ... But he was raised in the British Education system and was prepared for A-Levels. He took the SAT and got a 1520 (1600 scale).

... However, he was terrible at finishing homework and doing projects, and ultimately failed out of Berkeley. Last I heard he owned a fast food restaurant.

I had one teacher that suggested this anomaly was the result of the British education system emphasizing final exams over work that is turned in.

 

[allezfred]

Last I checked, your country had the highest per capita debt of any country in the world.

But you agree that US healthcare AND education systems are f*cked though.

 

[gkelly]

Even if that is so, it doesn't negate the reality that the US has very screwed up health care and education systems.

But is there a reason to bring up US health care in this thread?

 

[Sarah]

Reality check. A kid with a B- average in school does no score 1760 on the SAT
It is like a little clue!

Um, that would be my brother except his GPA was much worse. He was the brilliant kid who couldn’t be bothered to actually do work. So, his school wouldn’t let him take AP classes (he went to a private high school in hopes that a small school would be better for him and maybe make him do homework?) so he took the tests instead, without studying and got 4s and 5s, very good SAT scores (1400 or 1500 out of 1600, I can’t remember, but he had a 750 math...), and a report card full of Cs with some Ds and the occasional A. He did get As on most exams, but never turned in work so... this caught up with him in college but he eventually graduated the same month as me with a job offer from his co-op and has been working steadily ever since.

Meanwhile I worked crazy hard in my rigorous and elitist public school for a B+ average where you were considered a failure by some if you didn’t go to an ivy (my class had 10 out of 200 who went to Penn plus other Ivys). But I went to college found everything easy after high school and never received a grade lower than an A- on my transcript in undergrad and grad school and hold it over my brother that I got my degree 3 weeks before him. Honestly, it doesn’t matter where you go to school, even working in academia where it probably matters more. The university where I work now? I heard so many good things about their programs but working here? They have fancy labs and research and all that but the undergraduate degree is no better than the one I received at my smaller university based on the classes I’ve attended, assignments I’ve seen, and student work product I’ve witnessed.

 

[becca]

Reality check. A kid with a B- average in school does no score 1760 on the SAT
It is like a little clue!

I knew someone who scored like 35/36 but wasn’t in very many if not all honors classes cuz he didn’t want to put in the work to get the good grades.

 

[el henry]

I do want to chime in with all the “You can get a great education anywhere” posts. That may apply to kids from some backgrounds. But not to everyone.

Of course in theory you can, and all the children of the heads of hedge funds and cochairs of big law firms could have gone anywhere, and still made their way in this world.

But *not* for first gen or underrepresented minorities. An article in the NYTimes this week started with the sentence “Certain kinds of kids benefit greatly from admission to elite schools”: namely, kids like I was. Gaining the cultural capital and confidence to go out anywhere in the world, and graduating in four years to boot. Kids like me got that at Penn. (of course, we had to get in first, I understand that).

So for someone with an already middle class or upper middle class background, anywhere is wonderful, sure. But not for working class or poor kids. For them, an “elite” school really does open a world they didn’t know existed.

Which makes this bribery business for kids who already have the education and advantages all the more

 

[becca]

I do want to chime in with all the “You can get a great education anywhere” posts. That may apply to kids from some backgrounds. But not to everyone.

Of course in theory you can, and all the children of the heads of hedge funds and cochairs of big law firms could have gone anywhere, and still made their way in this world.

But *not* for first gen or underrepresented minorities. An article in the NYTimes this week started with the sentence “Certain kinds of kids benefit greatly from admission to elite schools”: namely, kids like I was. Gaining the cultural capital and confidence to go out anywhere in the world, and graduating in four years to boot. Kids like me got that at Penn. (of course, we had to get in first, I understand that).

So for someone with an already middle class or upper middle class background, anywhere is wonderful, sure. But not for working class or poor kids. For them, an “elite” school really does open a world they didn’t know existed.

Which makes this bribery business for kids who already have the education and advantages all the more

I know a lot of first generation kids who do well and did not go to top schools.

How hard you work matters. Your major matters too. A kid who gets a degree in engineering from a state school and gets good grades will probably do well.

One of my good friends is moving up quickly in our company. She did not go to Harvard and parents immigrants. They were poor. She started out on phones. She had no connections.

Every year she is getting a new certification. She is close to her MBA. They see this about her. She is doing this while juggling kids. Her brother too has a good job in computers.

The CEO at my company his MBA is not from Harvard.

Once you get your foot in the door how hard you work and networking skills matter.

I think someone who works hard can do well at state school. Furthermore a student from a low income school may struggle at a top school. This does not apply to my friends who had a education from their county of origin in math that was stronger. Although English took time.

I knew someone who was a top student in his high school but who had to go to remedial classes in his state college because his education wasn’t strong enough. He did catch up.

But goes to show throwing kids in elite schools who are not ready isn’t answer.

It does a disservice to tell kids their future rests on getting into a top school statistics don’t bear that out either.

 

[PDilemma]

If you buy stolen goods that you didn't know were stolen, you don't get to keep them....

Not necessarily true. My nephew's uncle (on the other side of his family) stole a massive amount of money from his employer. He had given gift cards purchased with that money to his niece and our shared nephew, to his sister and to his own kids. Anything he purchased for himself or his immediate family with that money was auctioned by the feds to pay restitution. But things purchased for his extended family or purchased with gift cards he gave them (and his scheme involved converting all the money he stole to Visa gift cards) was left alone. The extended family was not considered culpable at all.

 

[PDilemma]

I work in a very affluent area of California and the only thing I was surprised by is that this made the news and that articles used words like "shocking" or "scandal". For me, this is pretty standard. Things like people taking SATs for other students, paying off teachers for grades, downright writing essays for certain classes and college applications, paying off doctors to diagnose kids with ADHD so they get extended time during exams, etc. I guess from my point of view, I'm more familiar with kids cheating themselves in high school as opposed to paying off colleges. Disgusting and infuriating but not a surprise at all.

Oh, hell, I taught in an area that really wasnt' affluent at all and had parents who wrote papers for their high school students.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

What gets me about this, is if their kids can't get into college on their own merit, what makes parents think they can understand and handle the course load and actually pass?

Several years ago I worked with a boss who had embellished his resume and charmed his way into the position. Long story short, however. He couldn't do the job, and created absolute havoc for me and other members of his team when his work was late, rarely checked, or never handed in for processing at all.

 

[Prancer]

Reality check. A kid with a B- average in school does no score 1760 on the SAT
It is like a little clue!

Reality check. The SAT is not that mystical. I had a D average in high school and scored in the top 2% on my SATs.

The SAT was designed to predict how well high school students would do in their first years of college, no more and no less, and studies have shown it doesn't do that. Grades are a much better predictor of success because they better reflect work ethic. That's why some universities are dropping the SAT/ACT requirement; they aren't particularly useful.