CAS rules Valieva can compete - reactions/fallout, plus some details from the hearing

[Winnipeg]

ITA

I agree, the rules should apply all competitors so if a 15 year old is deemed outside of those rules, they should not be allowed to compete.

 

[Spikefan]

https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/1493605064962936837

Kaori: "Do I feel sorry for her? I don't think so."

As if I needed another reason to stan Kaori.

Kaori is better than I am. I would say, “No I do not feel sorry for her. I’m sure she is not sorry that my fellow teammates and I are missing out on our chance to receive and celebrate our bronze medal win. CAS decided to place her feelings above everyone else and the Olympic movement. So no, no sympathy from me.”

 

[vgerdes]

I'm pretty infuriated that she's being allowed to compete, in all honesty. I don't care how old she is, cheating is cheating. And the part about the other athletes not being awarded their medals during the Olympics? Completely unfair.

 

[overedge]

Shame she has to be asked about this after skating lights out in the short program at the Olympics. It really has cast a shadow over everyone.

I think it was perfectly fair for her to be asked about it. Valieva competing in the event affects Kaori's placements and everyone else's too.

 

[thvu]

Well, gee, my dad died 6 months ago but I didn't start hitting the bottle or smoking pot, and I'm hardly a high-level competitive athlete the way she is. She certainly didn't show any of the internal discipline or self-control you would expect from someone at her level.

And let's not forget that she CHOSE to smoke pot, knowing she had Trials coming up.

It's easy to judge others from up on high on your pedestal. It's also quite lonely up there. Judgemental garbage like your post is partly why so many people struggle with mental health. You literally are taking someone's pain, someone's admission of imperfection, and using it to look down on them. You're creating an environment where people aren't free to be in pain, aren't free to grieve and feel their emotions.

No one gives a damn that you were able to cope without drugs or alcohol. Not everyone can do that. Not everyone has the same relationship with their parents. Not everyone's parents mean the same things to them, or provides them with the same sense of security.

 

[Rukia]

It's easy to judge others from up on high on your pedestal. It's also quite lonely up there. Judgemental garbage like your post is partly why so many people struggle with mental health. You literally are taking someone's pain, someone's admission of imperfection, and using it to looking down on them. You're creating an environment where people aren't free to be in pain, aren't free to grieve and feel their emotions.

No on gives a damn that you were able to cope without drugs or alcohol. Not everyone can do that. Not everyone has the same relationship with their parents. Not everyone's parents mean the same things to them, or provides them with the same sense of security.

Well now we know she should have said her grandpa had smoked a joint and then they shared a glass of water.

 

[ioana]

Omg, the gif

There is a silver lining to this competition, after all

 

[Sylvia]

It is interesting, if not really surprising, how quiet The Japanese skating fed and Olympic Organization have been. Besides the team medal, they are the most affected in the ladies event. There was the post about Kihari.

What’s the post about Kihari?

@manhn who were you referring to in your earlier post? If it's Rika Kihira, she was mentioned as one of the skaters who "liked" or shared Yuna Kim's Instagram post via social media in this list compiled on Reddit:

Over on Reddit, a roundup of skater reactions - and they are overwhelmingly negative.

 

[Vagabond]

Omg, the gif

There is a silver lining to this competition, after all

Yeah, but the lining will most likely get demoted to bronze or even DQ'd.

 

[manhn]

@manhn who were you referring to in your earlier post? If it's Rika Kihira, she was mentioned as one of the skaters who "liked" or shared Yuna Kim's Instagram post via social media in this list compiled on Reddit:

Kihira, yes. I also saw a reddit post where they screenshot one of her Tweets, but now realized it was an old Tweet.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

 

[ioana]

Yeah, but the lining will most likely get demoted to bronze or even DQ'd.

Ye of little faith, doubting the politiking powers that even got bronze for

Also, the one skater I really care about got into the LP based on a rule change that made perfect sense on its own, so am holding onto the lining for as long as possible.

 

[barbarafan]

Ashley Wagner's most recent tweet/thread:

https://twitter.com/AshWagner2010/status/1493200901435240450

2 questions?? What does tmz look like? ie is it a pill? Also at the hearing Kamilla's parents were present. Did they or was it Kamilla who came out with the BS story of her drinking out her grandfather's glass after he took his supposed heart meds. If it was a pill it has a coating which would not dissolve until it was swallowed so there would be no residue of the contents in the water or the glass. If she testified that that was what happened she is lying through her teeth and truly cognizant of what she is doing. She now should be banned for sure.

 

[Vagabond]

What does tmz look like?

Here are my "Images" search results on Ecosia.

Spoiler

Apparently, it looks like Kamila Valieva

 

[Sylvia]

Yelim Kim at age 13 was facing up to a year suspension for missing a doping test. She was let off with a warning. She is on Twitter/Instagram condemning the decision for Valieva to continue competing.

I think Yelim Kim was just reprimanded, she could have been suspended for up to a year. Is there a history of suspending these “protected athletes” or just reprimanding them?

This Full Decision of the Disciplinary Commission, published Nov. 2016 (I've bolded a section below): https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/legal/disciplinary-decisions/538-case-2016-03-ms-yelim-kim/file

<< The Alleged Offender is a 13-year-old member of Korea Skating Union who competed in the
Ladies event of the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating in Yokohama and finished 5th.
On September 11, 2016, the Alleged Offender was selected for Anti-Doping testing after
completion of the Ladies event at 3.30 p.m. Neither the Doping Control Officer nor the
chaperone could find her on the ice rink. Since an attempt to call her in her hotel failed because
the line was busy, the Doping Control Officer, the chaperon and OC staff went to the hotel
where they found the skater and could finally notify her of the Doping Control selection at 4.15
p.m. The results of the test which was completed at 5.35 p.m. were negative.

It is uncontested that the Alleged Offender failed to report at the Doping Control Station at the
end of the event. She did not check whether she had been selected for Anti-Doping Testing.
The Alleged Offender being a minor of the age of 13, the Panel, with no representation from the
Alleged Offender, voluntarily examined whether Anti-Doping Rules are applicable to minors
in general and to this case in particular. The Panel observes that the rules contained in the ISU
Anti-Doping Rules do not specifically deal with the issue of age.

The Panel is nevertheless of the view that, in order for an athlete to be bound to anti-doping
rules, the issue of age is in principle of no relevance. Accordingly, the fact that the Alleged
Offender was very young at the time of the anti-doping control (13 years old) is in this respect
irrelevant. If a young athlete enrolls to compete in organized sport she must do it in accordance
with the rules of the game, including the rules whose violation entails disciplinary
consequences. This is especially appropriate in figure skating, where athletes tend to emerge
onto the international scene at ever younger ages. After all, subjection to rules and to sanctions
is not unknown to minors. For instance, when minors are in school, they must comply with
school rules and be prepared to undergo disciplinary consequences – even harsh ones, such as
the expulsion from the school or the repetition of the same school year – if they don’t. If a
young athlete is deemed by his parents mature enough to participate in an international event,
she must be deemed mature enough to understand the applicable anti-doping rules. In addition,
the Panel remarks that anti-doping rules are aimed at protecting the vested interest of all
participants in a fair competition. The principle of a level playing field is a cornerstone of sports
law in general and of anti-doping law in particular. This principle notably aims at protecting the
Athletes’ fundamental right to participate in doping-free sport and thus promote health, fairness
and equality for Athletes. In order to protect this fundamental right, it is indispensable that all
athletes be subjected to the same rules, particularly those aiming at protecting equality of arms
and, thus, at avoiding that some competitors may benefit from an unfair advantage over other
competitors. The qualification of an athlete as a minor is, therefore, not a circumstance that
could exempt him from being submitted to the anti-doping regulations in the same way as all
the other participants to the competitions. A different approach would lead to intolerable
consequences. One of the consequences would be that while some of the participants in a
competition (i.e. those who have attained the majority) would be subjected to a certain set of
rules, minors would have to obey to less stringent rules or to no rules at all. This would result, in
particular, in young athletes being allowed to use doping substances and doping methods, as
they could rely on a substantial immunity from the imposition of sanctions. This is incompatible
with the idea of a level playing field and would be contrary to the protection of the health of
minors, as the awareness of impunity would have the inevitable consequence of encouraging the
use of doping. All of this cannot be accepted. Therefore, the Alleged Offender is responsible for
a violation of the ISU Anti-Doping Rules.

For a first-time violation, the sanction is from a reprimand to a period of up to one year
suspension from competing at ISU Events. The skater's mistake is regrettable. However,
considering her very young age, her lack of experience in Anti-Doping matters at ISU Events
and the fact that it is her first violation, the Panel is of the view that a reprimand is the adequate
sanction. >>

I came across this Korean video of Yelim Kim in the mixed zone after her 2/14 practice and she was asked about Valieva at this point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6REt1HW6j0&t=170s
From the subtitles: "Honestly... I'm not feeling that good about it. As a skater I think it's not good because it's unfair. I believe that all athletes think that this isn't good."

 

[barbarafan]

Here are my "Images" search results on Ecosia.

Spoiler

Apparently, it looks like Kamila Valieva

Thank you. when I googled it all I got was Kamilla's story. Not a picture. So a pill. There should be nothing of it in the glass or in the water or in the grandfather's mouth.

 

[MacMadame]

Visited my favourite news skip (FS Gossips) to see the reactions from Russia and basically it's propaganda, everyone closing the ranks around our discriminated martyr skater and her sainted coach. Not that I'm surprised after the CAS decision.

I agree with Adam Rippon. The Russians* think everyone dopes. Therefore, the fact that they are getting caught and are being prosecuted has to be that people are out to get them.

There are definitely people in this world who think that you should take every advantage you can, skirt the rules, even sometimes break them. These people also believe everyone does this. Or, if you don't do it, you are a chump. Just look at Trump. He believes this. Some athletes do too.

*obviously not all of them in the entire country. But definitely TPTB and also a lot of others

I'm getting less and less convinced that KV was an innocent victim of Eteri and team.

She's 15. She's an innocent victim by definition.

Depends on the country you live in. In Austria you dont need your parents permission to get vacinated again C**** once you turn 14.

In the US as well though the age of medical consent varies by state. In some states, children as young as 12 can get treated for infectious diseases without parental consent!

I did not watch the ladies SP.

I didn't either and now I can't get spoiled no matter how much I try!

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Thanks @Sylvia for finding the disciplinary information. Just as a reminder for those who think these are entirely the same situation, it is not. Kim missed a drug test and received a reprimand due to lack of experience. Valieva didn't miss a drug test. She was tested and it came back positive. And Sylvia's bolded section clearly indicates minors were intended to receive the same disciplinary measures as anyone else. CAS rewrote precedent. Nothing will change my opinion about that.

 

[Hedwig]

They should fight the positive test result. The sample sat in the lab for almost a month. What is the guarantee that no chemical changes took place during that period. I would ask how the lab protected the sample,and of course what took them so long to test only this sample (if they tested all others on time). Try to get as much information as possible.

But that was answered. It was labeled as non-urgent so they took their time with it. In contrast to other samples of Olympic hopefuls.

 

[Rainbow]

They should fight the positive test result. The sample sat in the lab for almost a month. What is the guarantee that no chemical changes took place during that period. I would ask how the lab protected the sample,and of course what took them so long to test only this sample (if they tested all others on time). Try to get as much information as possible.

The lab only took one day longer than it was supposed to. It was RUSADA that sat on the sample and did not mark it as priority. Kamila and her legal representation have not contested the positive result, as far as has been reported.

 

[Nadya]

Vagabond - it doesn't matter how the drug got into her system. Once it is there, she has a doping violation. Athletes are absolutely accountable for what goes into their bodies. There isn't really any grey area and I fail to understand why anyone is trying to excuse her.

If it didn't matter, then people would not be fighting to prove that they ingested it without intent, and their suspensions wouldn't be lifting once they proved it. I understand you want to make this argument for your logic to work, but that's not what the regs say. If someone sprinkled pot on your eggs and you ingested it without knowledge, and you can prove it, puff! goes your suspension. See Nadejda Sergeyeva's case. It very much matters HOW you got the drug.

 

[Sylvia]

‘Completely unfair’: As Kamila Valieva returns to the ice, competitors sound off

Amid controversy, Kamila Valieva took to the ice and promptly finished first in the women's short skate.

sports.yahoo.com

Quotes from skaters after today's SP:

"I think it's completely unfair to the rest of the competitors," Chinese American skater Zhu Yi told Yahoo Sports. "It's the fact that everybody else is clean and she tested positive."
16-year-old American Alysa Liu glanced over her shoulder, and acknowledged that Valieva's presence in the event was "a little odd."
"I just don't know enough details to have a solid opinion on it," Liu said. "But pushing that aside, a doping athlete competing against clean athletes obviously isn't fair."
"The whole thing is really sad," Sweden's Josefin Taljegard said.

Switzerland's Alexia Paganini said: "I feel sorry for her, but rules are rules, and they should be followed."
"I think a lot of us are really excited about the skating here," Paganini, the U.S.-born Swiss skater said. "And then that's not really what we're focusing on."
"It's a little upsetting," she said, "that now the conversation is putting the sport in a really bad light."

 

[Muffin]

2 questions?? What does tmz look like? ie is it a pill? Also at the hearing Kamilla's parents were present. Did they or was it Kamilla who came out with the BS story of her drinking out her grandfather's glass after he took his supposed heart meds. If it was a pill it has a coating which would not dissolve until it was swallowed so there would be no residue of the contents in the water or the glass. If she testified that that was what happened she is lying through her teeth and truly cognizant of what she is doing. She now should be banned for sure.

I believe it was Valieva's mother and lawyer who presented the story about her grandfather's glass, but I don't know if the panel ever addressed or questioned Valieva directly.

According to Pravda, TMZ is a coated tablet that would not dissolve until being digested, and therefore Pravda expressed doubt that the excuse could be true. Pravda.

 

[Allskate]

I think it was perfectly fair for her to be asked about it. Valieva competing in the event affects Kaori's placements and everyone else's too.

But the point was that it was a shame that she was in a situation where she was asked about it. This is especially true since she said that she was trying not to focus on it. But she had to respond to questions about it. Meanwhile, Valieva didn't do media today.

She's 15. She's an innocent victim by definition.

Yes, but there is a difference between being an innocent victim by definition due to age and being ignorant. I think some people are having growing doubts that Valieva didn't know she was taking performance enhancing drugs. And, if she is playing a role in claiming that she has a heart problem and if she knowingly took the TMZ, then this is not like the East German situation discussed earlier and I have to admit the extent of my sympathy for her decreases. It doesn't disappear, but it decreases.

And the fact that Valieva may have been a victim does not change the fact that many, many others have been innocent victims of this and will continue to be. That includes the Japanese figure skaters. I am so impressed with Kaori and Wakaba, but also feel very sad and mad for them. Ditto for all the other non-Russian skaters competing in this event.

Adam Rippon's tweet expresses how I feel:

"So proud of my @MariahBell96 for dealing with this bizarre event with grace. For me, the Japanese women were the very best tonight. Skating quality, interpretation, emotion. Thank you for being a light in an event that has a dark cloud hanging over it."

https://twitter.com/AdamRippon/status/1493595000441126928?cxt=HHwWoIC--amvqLopAAAA

 

[Karen-W]

If it didn't matter, then people would not be fighting to prove that they ingested it without intent, and their suspensions wouldn't be lifting once they proved it. I understand you want to make this argument for your logic to work, but that's not what the regs say. If someone sprinkled pot on your eggs and you ingested it without knowledge, and you can prove it, puff! goes your suspension. See Nadejda Sergeyeva's case. It very much matters HOW you got the drug.

No, what I said is that they are accountable for everything that goes into their bodies. You are considered guilty until you can prove otherwise. And it takes a LOT to prove otherwise, else we'd be talking about a lot more tainted burritos or pot-laced scrambled eggs defenses working.

 

[Nadya]

No, what I said is that they are accountable for everything that goes into their bodies. You are considered guilty until you can prove otherwise. And it takes a LOT to prove otherwise, else we'd be talking about a lot more tainted burritos or pot-laced scrambled eggs defenses working.

Let's not argue about what you said; the interwebz knows:

"Vagabond - it doesn't matter how the drug got into her system. Once it is there, she has a doping violation. Athletes are absolutely accountable for what goes into their bodies. There isn't really any grey area and I fail to understand why anyone is trying to excuse her."

The bolded is demonstrably untrue.

 

[caseyedwards]

LONDON -- Richard Gasquet escaped a lengthy doping ban Wednesday when the International Tennis Federation's tribunal panel ruled that he inadvertently took cocaine by kissing a woman in a nightclub

 

[Karen-W]

Let's not argue about what you said; the interwebz knows:

"Vagabond - it doesn't matter how the drug got into her system. Once it is there, she has a doping violation. Athletes are absolutely accountable for what goes into their bodies. There isn't really any grey area and I fail to understand why anyone is trying to excuse her."

The bolded is demonstrably untrue.

And I can't believe you're going to argue about this when the defense they're offering up is as laughable as the tainted burrito defense. It does matter if the excuse being offered is almost as bad as drinking Jim Jones' Kool-Aid.

 

[Nadya]

And I can't believe you're going to argue about this when the defense they're offering up is as laughable as the tainted burrito defense. It does matter if the excuse being offered is almost as bad as drinking Jim Jones' Kool-Aid.

You're just going to have to work your believing muscles a bit more. You said it doesn't matter how the drug gets into your system, and it's not true. I mean why fight what's obvious? Just say you made a mistake and didn't mean it that way, Karen.

 

[Karen-W]

You're just going to have to work your believing muscles a bit more. You said it doesn't matter how the drug gets into your system, and it's not true. I mean why fight what's obvious? Just say you made a mistake and didn't mean it that way, Karen.

Well, according to WADA, CAS is deliberately misinterpreting the provisional suspension rules, and those do make it clear that it doesn't matter how the drug got into the system while the provisional suspension is in effect and the athlete is appealing a ban. So, no, I wasn't wrong. If, in the end, Valieva can prove that she unwittingly ingested the TMZ, that is the point at which her suspension can be overturned. But, until that point, she is supposed to be suspended from competition. Flat out, she shouldn't be competing in the Olympics.

 

[bladesofgorey]

If it didn't matter, then people would not be fighting to prove that they ingested it without intent, and their suspensions wouldn't be lifting once they proved it. I understand you want to make this argument for your logic to work, but that's not what the regs say. If someone sprinkled pot on your eggs and you ingested it without knowledge, and you can prove it, puff! goes your suspension. See Nadejda Sergeyeva's case. It very much matters HOW you got the drug.

I hate to be pedantic but (who am I kidding I love to be pedantic obvs) but your suspension does not go POOF if you unknowingly ingested something due to a tainted supplement. Your suspension might be shortened, but you still get a suspension. This has been discussed multiple times but these threads are long and varied so I don't blame you for missing that.
See Nadejda Sergeyeva's case.
Exactly, this is a perfect example. Her suspension did not go POOF, but she was able to bargain down to accepting 8 months instead. She got the lighter 8 months suspension, but still had a suspension because athletes are responsible for knowing everything they ingest.