Ashley Wagner reveals she was assaulted by John Coughlin

[Firedancer]

Here's the interview with Ashley from this morning's Today show :

Ashley Wagner wants to protect younger skaters from sexual assault

“It’s my job as someone in this generation of skating to make the sport safer."

www.today.com

Thank you for posting the video. So brave of Ashley to be speaking out and continuing to push for changes to be made.

 

[ice crystal]

Are you unaware of the fact that gay figure skaters had to hide the fact that they were gay, back-in-the-day? Sadly, yes, I'm serious that straight, male figure skaters have historically been privileged. If there's anyone who believes otherwise, maybe do some research and talk to the skaters who lived the experience of what it was like having to pretend to be something they were not.

John was very close in age to skaters who are still competing. Only two years separated him from Chris Knierim for example and he was even younger than Eric Radford. You could view him as a contemporary/close to the active competition scene by age. What ages/decades are you referring to....?

 

[bethy135]

I am a mom to two young skaters. They are about 3 years into their skating journey. Both are working their way through testing and freeskate levels and competing in club competitions for fun. We have zero intentions whatsoever of pursuing qualifying competition levels. Our family is in this for fun, fitness, friends and community. We perceive this as a life sport and investment.

We still spend a fortune and understand that we are the bread and butter for our figure skating coaches - enabling them to pursue their professional goals at a higher level with the more competitive skaters.

We have witnessed zero inappropriate or risky behavior at our rink. HOWEVER, we have personally witnessed first hand the overall power dynamic and IMO bizarre culture of the FS world as described by Ashley and other victims. Even before they brought public attention to it. Frankly it can be chilling sometimes (no pun intended).

We are pulling our younger skater out of skating because she is equally interested in other endeavors and we just want to get away from USFS and the FS competition culture ASAP. We've got 4 more years of skating with our older skater and I'm counting down the months to get it over with.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I am a mom to two young skaters. They are about 3 years into their skating journey. Both are working their way through testing and freeskate levels and competing in club competitions for fun. We have zero intentions whatsoever of pursuing qualifying competition levels. Our family is in this for fun, fitness, friends and community. We perceive this as a life sport and investment.

We still spend a fortune and understand that we are the bread and butter for our figure skating coaches - enabling them to pursue their professional goals at a higher level with the more competitive skaters.

We have witnessed zero inappropriate or risky behavior at our rink. HOWEVER, we have personally witnessed first hand the overall power dynamic and IMO bizarre culture of the FS world as described by Ashley and other victims. Even before they brought public attention to it. Frankly it can be chilling sometimes (no pun intended).

We are pulling our younger skater out of skating because she is equally interested in other endeavors and we just want to get away from USFS and the FS competition culture ASAP. We've got 4 more years of skating with our older skater and I'm counting down the months to get it over with.

I hate to ask the obvious but I will. If you don't think it is a good environment why would you leave your older daughter there?
BTW....IMO there is no reason that will justify keeping her there.

 

[misskarne]

I hate to ask the obvious but I will. If you don't think it is a good environment why would you leave your older daughter there?
BTW....IMO there is no reason that will justify keeping her there.

Pre-emptive victim blaming is a new low for you, isn't it?

 

[MacMadame]

Second, I don't know the skater in question, but would be very surprised if people on this board didn't ask questions about her possibly having an ED on this board.

Of course we did. We discuss everything and any skinny skater gets talked about as possibly having an eating disorder (even though you can't always tell if someone has an eating disorder just by looking at them).

 

[Ananas Astra]

I was skating at a small club in Germany and I totally agree that the few boys we had (including my brother for some time) definitely got special treatment, but none of them ever behaved inappropriately towards the girls, not even at our training camps. There was just one boy who had ADHD or something like it and tried to be "funny", but he was immediately "punished" for his behaviour and learned from it.
I really consider myself lucky in this case.

 

[overedge]

Kiira Korpi

https://twitter.com/kiirakorpi_fi/status/1160212988734967808?s=19

 

[bethy135]

I was skating at a small club in Germany and I totally agree that the few boys we had (including my brother for some time) definitely got special treatment, but none of them ever behaved inappropriately towards the girls, not even at our training camps. There was just one boy who had ADHD or something like it and tried to be "funny", but he was immediately "punished" for his behaviour and learned from it.
I really consider myself lucky in this case.

Same exact experience at our rink.

 

[bethy135]

I hate to ask the obvious but I will. If you don't think it is a good environment why would you leave your older daughter there?
BTW....IMO there is no reason that will justify keeping her there.

Because we have leverage in that what we have that the coaches value is money and volunteer hours. And we use that leverage. They have to be nice to us parents and our skaters or we yank them and our many dollars. Our skaters are not trying to advance in the competitive pipeline and so the dynamic is very different. Like I said we are the bread and butter and are happy with our casual experience.

I have not had one moment when I've felt there was any sort of risk of physical or sexual abuse to any of the skaters in our rink. If I did I would blow a whistle without hesitation whether it were for my child or any other skater. Because like I said the coaches have no leverage over the average non ambitious and non delusional skating parents.

Also, my kids are never alone with coaches or older skaters. And I travel with them and they stay with me for club competitions.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Because we have leverage in that what we have that the coaches value is money and volunteer hours. And we use that leverage. They have to be nice to us parents and our skaters or we yank them and our many dollars. Our skaters are not trying to advance in the competitive pipeline and so the dynamic is very different. Like I said we are the bread and butter and are happy with our casual experience.

I have not had one moment when I've felt there was any sort of risk of physical or sexual abuse to any of the skaters in our rink. If I did I would blow a whistle without hesitation whether it were for my child or any other skater. Because like I said the coaches have no leverage over the average non ambitious and non delusional skating parents.

Also, my kids are never alone with coaches or older skaters. And I travel with them and they stay with me for club competitions.

You said it was not a good atmosphere for your kids...and you were counting the months until it was over. So...why are you there. Negative and unhealthy does not have to be sexual. And paying guarantees you nothing. NOTHING!
A whispered...meet me here....or what is your email. You won't even know it happened. And nothing has to happen....if it is not nurturing and positive why is you daughter there?

 

[Artistic Skaters]

Why? Because in many cases it's simply that the skater loves skating. If you really want to help, you could support and seek solutions to the problems that exist so skaters can still love skating. If you don't want to help, you can keep addressing every post in a negative manner that blames the parents and skaters because the skaters love skating.

I've spent time at the rink when it was not a great atmosphere, as well as times when there were wonderful and uplifting experiences. People who love skating try to work through the problems in the hopes of maintaining the latter environment. Your posts indicate you are not very interested (if at all) in that path.

 

[MacMadame]

The Enough is Enough Voter project has a petition demanding Congress pass a bi-partisan bill to increase oversight in Olympic sports because of what happened to Ashley:

Sign the Petition: Demand Congress pass the bipartisan bill to increase oversight in Olympic sports.

Ashley’s story is a painful and all too familiar story for many women from all walks of life. But in the last year, too many athletes from a wide spectrum of sports have come forward with their stories of abuse. The US Olympic Committee is putting our nation’s athletes in danger by staying...

actionnetwork.org

 

[AxelAnnie]

Why? Because in many cases it's simply that the skater loves skating. If you really want to help, you could support and seek solutions to the problems that exist so skaters can still love skating. If you don't want to help, you can keep addressing every post in a negative manner that blames the parents and skaters because the skaters love skating.

I've spent time at the rink when it was not a great atmosphere, as well as times when there were wonderful and uplifting experiences. People who love skating try to work through the problems in the hopes of maintaining the latter environment. Your posts indicate you are not very interested (if at all) in that path.

You have underlined the issue. People, for the most part try to make things work.

That is a good thing. That is not what Bethy has described. She describes an atmosphere similar to what Ashley described. The parent needs to be the parent. They are in charge for a reason - to look out for the child's well being. Where do YOU draw the line: touching, yelling, shaming, only negative comments, parents who back bite. Of course there are wonderful and uplifting experience. However, if a mom is counting the months until she can get her child out of there. There are lots of kinds of harm.
I ride competitively. It can be a cesspool. After having my children and I in several barns that were negative, back-biting, demeaning.....and thinking....just "whatever" and it will be fine, I found an atmosphere where everyone supports everyone. Everyone is invested in positive outcomes for everyone...kids, adults, everyone.

We are at the ring when one of our riders is riding. We cheer loudly, and console lovingly. Surely there are atmospheres like that in skating, and that is where I would want my child.

witnessed zero inappropriate or risky behavior at our rink. HOWEVER, we have @bethy135

We have personally witnessed first hand the overall power dynamic and IMO bizarre culture of the FS world as described by Ashley and other victims. Even before they brought public attention to it. Frankly it can be chilling sometimes (no pun intended).

If this is how the parent feels about the rink, she needs to put on here big girl pants, and do what is right for her child. She can skate someplace food for her, of find something else to do............a horse maybe?

Why? Because in many cases it's simply that the skater loves skating. If you really want to help, you could support and seek solutions to the problems that exist so skaters can still love skating. If you don't want to help, you can keep addressing every post in a negative manner that blames the parents and skaters because the skaters love skating.

I've spent time at the rink when it was not a great atmosphere, as well as times when there were wonderful and uplifting experiences. People who love skating try to work through the problems in the hopes of maintaining the latter environment. Your posts indicate you are not very interested (if at all) in that path.

As a parent you are in charge of monitoring your child's health and wellbeing. If you child wants to skate...........great. Find a place that YOU deem to be safe and nurturing.

 

[Willin]

I definitely think training environment plays a role into how much male skaters are coddled. At pairs/dance heavy rinks or rinks with a lot of girls that want to go into that the boys may be coddled or given the benefit of the doubt - I heard as much from friends that trained at those rinks.

On the other hand, at rinks that are synchro heavy (those I trained at in the midwest) and singles heavy (pretty much every rink I've skated at in California) I never really saw male skaters being coddled or getting away with things they'd otherwise not get away with. The hockey guys are the biggest predators because they'd been getting away with everything.

@bethy135 TBH USFS competition in general is a toxic culture. Synchro is a little better, but there's still a lot of problems in synchro. I think ISI is much healthier in many ways. OTOH, I think your daughter will have a much better experience competing in college or as an adult. By college and adulthood most skaters see that winning isn't everything and it's more of a party and attempts to better your own skating or do what you enjoy. I also find that because these skaters have a lot more agency and are doing what they love rather than for competition's sake it's much easier to avoid toxic USFS bs. So I wouldn't worry too much if she chooses to keeps skating.

 

[Debbie S]

For those watching the gymnastics champs on NBC right now, I thought the USA Gym CEO did a nice job in her interview with Andrea Joyce, validating Simone's comments earlier this week and stating that the gymnasts can and should express themselves publicly, and acknowledging that USA Gym failed and needs to make changes. She was a bit tight-lipped on her actual plans but I hope those will be forthcoming, publicly.

I wonder if NBC will have any coverage or comments during the coming skating season. Will anyone at USFS recognize the need to get on camera and support survivors publicly?

 

[overedge]

@AxelAnnie it sounds like @bethy135 is well aware of what is going on where her kids skate, and is ensuring that they have as positive an experience as possible. It's not always possible to switch rinks because of e.g. distance, schedules, coach availability, cost. So there's really no need for you to lecture her about how to parent.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

@AxelAnnie - let it be. It's extremely difficult to be a skating parent. If a child loves skating, how do you just pull them out? Switching rinks may not be feasible for a family. We can't be so judgemental and hard on each other.

 

[aftershocks]

John was very close in age to skaters who are still competing. Only two years separated him from Chris Knierim for example and he was even younger than Eric Radford. You could view him as a contemporary/close to the active competition scene by age. What ages/decades are you referring to....?

I'm not sure why you are misconstruing that my 'back-in-the-day' reference is to roughly Dick Button's competitive era up through Rudy Galindo and a bit beyond. It was around the time of Johnny Weir, Eric Radford and Adam Rippon when larger cultural change began to coincide with gradual acceptance in figure skating for gay skaters being open about being out. Galindo was one of the first male skaters to come out openly while he was still skating, but his admission was not widely greeted with applause or acceptance. He persevered and succeeded in his competitive career via his own gumption, hard work, and self-belief.

When John Coughlin was skating mid 90s thru early 2000s, it was roughly the same time as Johnny Weir. And although behind-the-scenes, being gay was more understood and quietly accepted, gay skaters were still NOT supposed to be open about their sexuality. They were still expected to 'skate macho' and to pretend. Witness the purposeful effort to contrast JWeir with ELysacek's 'macho costume' references. The image juxtaposition that took place was a big part of what their faux, forced rivalry was all about. One of the reasons Johnny got into so much hot water is because even though he didn't come out openly when he was competing eligibly, he rebelled against being restricted in what he should wear and how he should behave.

In any case, it's probably partly still true to this day that being straight and male in the sport of figure skating is something that is 'prized.' Old constructs, habits, thoughts, and ways of operating die hard apparently, especially in figure skating.

ETA:
Simply because straight male skaters are privileged obviously does not mean they will all behave inappropriately. Everyone is an individual, so there are a number of factors involved in why people react to situations in different ways.

 

[canbelto]

@AxelAnnie you day you were abused and “dealt with it.” I’m saying this in a nice way — I think you need to look within yourself about how well you dealt with it. Because the victim blaming, lack of empathy and judgmental comments you show in this thread and others makes me think you might have a few things you need to unpack.

 

[aftershocks]

... bizarre culture of the FS world as described by Ashley and other victims...

Thank you so much for contributing to the conversation and sharing your knowledge.

When you refer to 'bizarre culture of FS,' do you mind elaborating a bit? Are you mostly referencing 'bizarre' in the sense of a power dynamic many coaches have over skaters in terms of skaters being under the thumb of authority figures, and thus vulnerable psychologically, emotionally, and sexually in some instances?

Are you referring at all to how young male skaters are more prized than female skaters?

Are you referencing the back-stabbing that can occur to get ahead?

Are you referencing the negative body image problems in the sport that can lead to eating disorders?

Are you referencing anyone having been victimized as a young female either by a partner or by a coach and being vilified and rejected when they came forward to report abuse?

Are you referencing the 'head-in-the-sand,' sweep everything under-the-rug mentality of the powers-that-be among US figure skating management?

Is it these and/or additional circumstances to which you are referring? Please specify and elaborate. The discussion is important to take place, if change is expected to ever happen.

 

[bethy135]

I definitely think training environment plays a role into how much male skaters are coddled. At pairs/dance heavy rinks or rinks with a lot of girls that want to go into that the boys may be coddled or given the benefit of the doubt - I heard as much from friends that trained at those rinks.

On the other hand, at rinks that are synchro heavy (those I trained at in the midwest) and singles heavy (pretty much every rink I've skated at in California) I never really saw male skaters being coddled or getting away with things they'd otherwise not get away with. The hockey guys are the biggest predators because they'd been getting away with everything.

@bethy135 TBH USFS competition in general is a toxic culture. Synchro is a little better, but there's still a lot of problems in synchro. I think ISI is much healthier in many ways. OTOH, I think your daughter will have a much better experience competing in college or as an adult. By college and adulthood most skaters see that winning isn't everything and it's more of a party and attempts to better your own skating or do what you enjoy. I also find that because these skaters have a lot more agency and are doing what they love rather than for competition's sake it's much easier to avoid toxic USFS bs. So I wouldn't worry too much if she chooses to keeps skating.

Yes, the goal is for her to continue skating and in a better community. Her current college search is heavily influenced by the local skating community. She loves the sport and wants to skate for life. AxelAnnie, I reserve the right to use my own judgement on what's best for my child. It's not like there is a sheet of ice on every corner. So that's the one bit of leverage our local coaches have and they absolutely know it!

Anytime there are people involved in anything there is going to be some level of conflict and it's a personal judgement call whether the benefits outweigh the risks.

With the younger skater we are bailing while we still can.

 

[AxelAnnie]

@AxelAnnie you day you were abused and “dealt with it.” I’m saying this in a nice way — I think you need to look within yourself about how well you dealt with it. Because the victim blaming, lack of empathy and judgmental comments you show in this thread and others makes me think you might have a few things you need to unpack.

Are you kidding? I am woman
I am invincible.
You try on my childhood. I'll match you and up by 5. why is behind us only defines is if we allow it to?

Oh no my dear. I have dealt with it all and I can tell you I am one strong woman. We choose what we allow to define us. And I chose long ago what I would allow to me me. And I
Did that all by myself by finding people after whom I could model myself and in whom I could believe.

 

[Japanfan]

Are you kidding? I am woman
I am invincible.

And 'hear you roar'?

Well, good for you.

You try on my childhood. I'll match you and up by 5.

So, you'd be in the running for 'worst childhood' on FSU?

why is behind us only defines is if we allow it to?

Trauma leaves scars.

Oh no my dear. I have dealt with it all and I can tell you I am one strong woman. We choose what we allow to define us. And I chose long ago what I would allow to me me. And I
Did that all by myself by finding people after whom I could model myself and in whom I could believe.

But we do not choose all the experiences we have, or the people in our lives - particularly when we are children. And those experiences and people shape how we define ourselves.

Good for you that you found strong model models.

But I get a sense from your post that you are negatively judging others who in your view have not been equally tough in dealing with adverse circumstances.

FWIW, I don't think anyone is invincible. And again, that trauma leaves scars - although they may not be particularly visible, they are there. Denial can be a very strong self-defense.

Also, there are a lot strong of women on this board, as there are in life.

 

[skatfan]

Are you kidding? I am woman
I am invincible.
You try on my childhood. I'll match you and up by 5. why is behind us only defines is if we allow it to?

Oh no my dear. I have dealt with it all and I can tell you I am one strong woman. We choose what we allow to define us. And I chose long ago what I would allow to me me. And I
Did that all by myself by finding people after whom I could model myself and in whom I could believe.

Strength also comes in the form of listening to others with an open mind, showing kindness and mercy to others who are hurting, in allowing others to be where they are without rancor or judgment. Being tough alone is not the same as being strong. IMO.

 

[cholla]

Oh no my dear. I have dealt with it all and I can tell you I am one strong woman.

Strong women have empathy. Strong women do not have negative reactions and are not judgmental towards those who struggle and try to be heard. Strong women do not sound like heartless bitches. I am sincerely sorry you had to cope with and to survive abuse. But the way you dealt with it looks pretty much like you built a wall around yourself not to be emotionally touched by what other people can suffer. I really doubt you are the cold cruel person you seem to be. I think it's a facade because you haven't healed properly. Strong woman are able to understand people's reactions even if these reactions are totally different from theirs or the ones they think they'd have in equal circumstances. Strong women who have properly dealt with the trauma of abuse don't sound cruel and heartless and don't present themselves as an exemple. They know every individual is different and cannot cope with trauma in the same manner. Being strong doesn't mean being harsh and ruthless.

And I chose long ago what I would allow to me me.

I am sorry but you rather sound like you just locked yourself up.

And I
Did that all by myself by finding people after whom I could model myself and in whom I could believe.

A strong women has no difficulty admitting she can't be strong 24/7 and can be in need of help. Finding people in whom you can believe is great. Modeling yourself after anyone else is useless. You are you. That's what you have to deal with first before dealing with trauma. Being strong means acknowledging our own weaknesses and failures and accepting them in order to move on. Strong women don't have to tell they are strong. They do not feel the need to tell it. Because it shows.

 

[misskarne]

One of the reasons Johnny got into so much hot water is because even though he didn't come out openly when he was competing eligibly, he rebelled against being restricted in what he should wear and how he should behave.

I'm sure the deliberately faked injuries/illness when he wasn't getting his way had nothing to do with it, of course.

And I chose long ago what I would allow to me me. And I
Did that all by myself by finding people after whom I could model myself and in whom I could believe.

Good to know that being a heartless evil bitch is a persona you chose.

 

[2sk8]

ETA:
Simply because straight male skaters are privileged obviously does not mean they will all behave inappropriately. Everyone is an individual, so there are a number of factors involved in why people react to situations in different ways.

A thoughtful addition - tiptoeing into this thread to note how troubling I find it that there is so much more angst on this board - at least as judged by this thread and the one on the Callahan thread - about women being assaulted than other men (especially if those men aren't gay). It's wrong, and especially wrong in this sport, to paint heterosexual men as the "bad guys." I can assure you they've been assaulted too (see Craig M, he's not the only one), they've reported - and I personally know of some who have reported on actions by other men toward women in their rinks. Do you know what they get (at least in the past) for doing so? Essentially blackballed and if the female is not prepared to come forward as a victim at that time, well, what can you do?

Anyway, just trying to point out that it's a bit more complex than just blame the heterosexual guys.

 

[Scrufflet]

Yes, the goal is for her to continue skating and in a better community. Her current college search is heavily influenced by the local skating community. She loves the sport and wants to skate for life. AxelAnnie, I reserve the right to use my own judgement on what's best for my child. It's not like there is a sheet of ice on every corner. So that's the one bit of leverage our local coaches have and they absolutely know it!

Anytime there are people involved in anything there is going to be some level of conflict and it's a personal judgement call whether the benefits outweigh the risks.

With the younger skater we are bailing while we still can.

I applaud you for facing this situation with wisdom and maturity! Your children will know that they are learning and growing in an environment where they are protected and guided by you. You are also showing other parents how to monitor things. You are reinforcing to the coaches and the skating system a positive approach. Good on you and don't let anybody tell you otherwise!

 

[AxelAnnie]

And 'hear you roar'?

Well, good for you.



So, you'd be in the running for 'worst childhood' on FSU?



Trauma leaves scars.



But we do not choose all the experiences we have, or the people in our lives - particularly when we are children. And those experiences and people shape how we define ourselves.

Good for you that you found strong model models.

But I get a sense from your post that you are negatively judging others who in your view have not been equally tough in dealing with adverse circumstances.

FWIW, I don't think anyone is invincible. And again, that trauma leaves scars - although they may not be particularly visible, they are there. Denial can be a very strong self-defense.

Also, there are a lot strong of women on this board, as there are in life.

Strong women on this board? No $hit!

Denial is a defense mechanism proposed by Anna Freud which involves a refusal to accept reality, thus blocking external events from awareness. ... Many people use denial in their everyday lives to avoid dealing with painful feelings or areas of their life they don't wish to admit.

And yes, trauma leaves scars. We do not choose the experiences we have, or MOST of the people in our lives. we do chose how we react to them. Think Elizabeth Smart.

Judging.....you bet! Someone defines a place as dangerous to the psyche of her child and yet leaves her child there.

Martin Niemoller

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

We all judge all the time.....just like you are judging me. To judge someone is to form an opinion of conclusion about someone.

And why are we all here at FSU? Because we are rather addicted: enthusiastically devoted to a particular thing or activity. ..... which is a judged sport