A Divine Sport blog

ITA with your review of Seguin/Bilodeau's new sp at SA @clairecloutier. You hit the nail on the head. I could not have expressed my feeling as articulately as you do that there's something just not right about that program for them. It seems okay on the surface. But they don't show a comfort level with it, nor does it quite suit their style in the way that their former marvelous sp did. I guess that's the risk of trying to explore a different challenge. It doesn't always work, but its sometimes hard to pinpoint exactly why.

I'm still reading your reviews. I wish I'd discovered prior to the event where you were sitting, so I could have had the opportunity to meet you in person. :) I saw your post in the SA anticipation thread after the event was over.

That's a nice photo in the stands of James/Cipres. I spoke to Vanessa briefly in the lobby one evening after the pairs SP. I thought they originally skated their fp to different music that had a similar sexy vibe to their sp. ETA: Okay, I checked and I am mistaken that there was different fp music initially. I guess it was the sp that stuck in my mind and overpowered my memory of their fp music at Autumn Classic. They definitely do sexy so well. The sp suits them well, and I hope they work out the hiccoughs they experienced in the fp at SA.

ITA that Ash/Rog seem off, and have not made noticeable improvements in the areas they need to be addressing. The questions you pose for them are right on.

Thanks for sharing.
 
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clairecloutier said:
Last spring on her Naked Ice web site, @kwanatic launched one of the most interesting projects I've ever seen in the fan community. The concept of the project? Figure skating fans would rejudge a competition using IJS, issuing a full set of TES/PCS marks for each skater, just like real judges. Not only that, @kwanatic upped the stakes by choosing the 2014 Sochi Olympics ladies’ event—one of the most controversial of the IJS era—as the competition to be judged. The results of the project are available tonight on her site: “We’ll Be the Judge of That–2014 Sochi Olympics Results."

I myself was one of the 7 judges for the project. Here's my post about the experience of using IJS as an actual judge would: "Walking in the Judges' Shoes: The Sochi Judging Project."

ETA: I see our friend @alchemy void was also a judge! :cheer2:
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Thanks for sharing your review of participation in this project. Clearly, from all that goes into IJS judging its impossible for the judges to score fairly and accurately. The inability to provide an overall ranking seems problematic. Plus, they don't seem to have time to make good judgements. And they are expected to make too many specific split-second quantitative judgements. The holistic, qualitative judgement clearly gets lost in the sheer scoring complexity required for every element.

Obviously, the scoring system is calling out to be streamlined. And I think they should focus on finding better ways to review replays to get tech calls accurate. They should also employ choreographic and performance experts to provide important input on the expressive and interpretive aspects of skating performances. I just had a thought that to save time skaters maybe should skate and then have preliminary scores entered by the judges. The scores could be set aside without posting immediately, thereby avoiding long waits in kiss 'n cry. After all the performances are over and the next group is warming up, the tech panel and artistic panel could confer and offer input while the judges review footage and complete detailed scoring on GOE. A way to streamline PCS scoring needs to be found and the performance experts should play a huge role in PCS judging. The judges would not be allowed to necessarily change their scores based on comparisons with other skaters but would be able to take second looks at performances and provide more considered and less rushed judgements, and also maybe have a way to rank skaters without knowing what any of the other judges are deciding. Final scores for first group can be entered, and then the second group competes with the same process and the reviewing can take place on the second group while the Zamboni is running. After all groups have competed, the final scoring can be calculated and posted in the arena. I know this sounds like collusion could occur, but not if clear guidelines and goals are set, and the judges separately arrive at their individual decision-making. Of course, we would miss out on the scoring drama in the kiss 'n cry. But under IJS, there's not as much drama anyway, just a lot of wait time. And there could still be an abbreviated kiss 'n cry after each skate where the skaters are briefly interviewed. These are just some immediate thoughts and ideas that came to mind after reading about your judging experience. :)

ITA that more attention needs to be paid to judging the quality of execution of individual elements, rather than getting bogged down by + GOEs for transitions into elements, etc.

clairecloutier said:
... The GOE guidelines, to me, put too much emphasis on proper entry to jumps and not enough on good exits (i.e., smooth, sure, on an outside edge, flow/control out of landing). Similarly, the GOE guidelines for spins put too much emphasis on speed and rotations, not enough on centering.
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Exactly! And thanks for your excellent rundown on the ineffectiveness of PCS categories as presently laid out.
 
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@aftershocks I wish I'd known you were at Skate America! I would have liked to say hello and meet you in person!

Thank you for your comments. Your ideas about possible changes to the judging system are pretty interesting--especially reducing the amount of time spent in the kiss-n-cry after each skater performs, and instead adding more time elsewhere into the judging process. I wonder if the ISU has ever seriously considered any changes along these lines. Somehow, I doubt it ....
 
clairecloutier said:
My Cup of China pairs review is up! http://bit.ly/2gvgjGM

Earlier than usual! :)
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Ironically, I did not fully appreciate just how talented Wu and Jin were until this partner swap! They brought out the best in their new partners --not to mention, their smiles. And, although I didn't think it possible, I like watching Wu and Jin more with their new partners. So no more second-guessing Yao Bin for me--or at least until he breaks up another Chinese pair that I get a skating crush on.
 
It's amazing how good the new teams have gotten in such a short amount of time. It must help that they all had the same coaches and learned all the same techniques on all the elements. It's still very impressive. The athletes are all incredible. I mean W/W have the same coaches and are improving, yet the new teams have leapfrogged them. Just amazing.
 
Thanks for the recap, Claire! This was my most anticipated pairs event because of the Chinese team drama and finally, FINALLY getting to see the reconstituted teams. For the individual skaters' sake, I'm very happy that the big switcheroo is working out (much as it galled me at the time, and still galls me; and much as I deplore the strong-arm, top-down approach behind it). But it's hard to wish the Chinese Fed ill while wishing their skaters well ... so I guess I'll have to forgive Zhang eventually and learn to appreciate his qualities again (sigh). It helps that Yu is one of my absolute favorite female pairs skaters and I want to see her scale the heights.

text_skate said:
I enjoy reading your recaps. There are times now and then when I like them more than the performances :)

At this event I liked Peng/Jin’s outing. Loved, how Cheng jumped for joy after the SP – quite adorable.
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Peng's joy was a thing to behold! That, and the SP performance itself, actually brought tears to my eyes. In truth, she was almost the one I was most worried about, as the main discardee, since being tossed aside by Zhang was surely a big blow to her confidence, already so lacking. Now she is very cute and playful with Jin. I agree that he appears to be a supportive partner, very much focused on emotional interaction and the small touches. I still think there was greatness in the pairing with Yu. But Peng brings a playfulness that works very well for the new team as a whole and, who knows, may end up revealing a completely different side of him.

As a much more established team, the Wangs obviously wanted to show their stuff and weren't able to deliver with that LP. I myself was hoping for a Chinese sweep (W/W in 3rd), so I felt for Xuehan in the KnC. I was thinking she might have been devastated that they placed so far behind Peng/Jin. Maybe they actually hoped to better P/J in the standings?

I can't wait to see how things shape up for the Chinese next week at NHK.

ETA: Interestingly, bronze looks wide open there. More pairs excitement!
 
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znhurston said:
Ironically, I did not fully appreciate just how talented Wu and Jin were until this partner swap! They brought out the best in their new partners --not to mention, their smiles. And, although I didn't think it possible, I like watching Wu and Jin more with their new partners. So no more second-guessing Yao Bin for me--or at least until he breaks up another Chinese pair that I get a skating crush on.
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I never second-guessed Yao Bin. It is immaterial how well something turns out from a skating point of view..It is a human rights issue. 3 of the 4 people involved did not want to switch. They are not slaves.
 
barbarafan said:
I never second-guessed Yao Bin. It is immaterial how well something turns out from a skating point of view..It is a human rights issue. 3 of the 4 people involved did not want to switch. They are not slaves.
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I get your point but, please, let's not equate being an elite, state-sponsored athlete in China with slavery.
 
znhurston said:
I get your point but, please, let's not equate being an elite, state-sponsored athlete in China with slavery.
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Why not. In this instance that is how they were treated. This is a trend that a few people in China have started and it needs to be stopped.I have no idea how but there are people out there that do know how. Being free is not a priviledge..it should be a right.
 
barbarafan said:
Why not. In this instance that is how they were treated. This is a trend that a few people in China have started and it needs to be stopped.I have no idea how but there are people out there that do know how. Being free is not a priviledge..it should be a right.
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Why not?!? That you ask tells me no matter what facts I present to refute your analogy you will remain unmoved. So, I am agreeing to disagree and moving on.
 
znhurston said:
I get your point but, please, let's not equate being an elite, state-sponsored athlete in China with slavery.
Click to expand...

barbarafan said:
Why not. In this instance that is how they were treated. This is a trend that a few people in China have started and it needs to be stopped.I have no idea how but there are people out there that do know how. Being free is not a priviledge..it should be a right.
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The Chinese skaters may not be free to run their skating careers the way they want. But they are free to leave skating and the state-sponsored sports system. So, they have that level of freedom, at least. Historically, in the U.S. and presumably elsewhere, slaves lacked all freedoms, including the freedom to leave their situation. So, although the Chinese skaters' situation is disturbing, slavery is not the correct word to describe it. I do agree, though, that the way they've been treated is appalling.
 
clairecloutier said:
The Chinese skaters may not be free to run their skating careers the way they want. But they are free to leave skating and the state-sponsored sports system. So, they have that level of freedom, at least. Historically, in the U.S. and presumably elsewhere, slaves lacked all freedoms, including the freedom to leave their situation. So, although the Chinese skaters' situation is disturbing, slavery is not the correct word to describe it. I do agree, though, that the way they've been treated is appalling.
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It is not so easy as that..Poverty is rank in most of China..It is possible their families are depending on their skating for various things...The other thing is all the lying about their ages. This was all done by the Chinese Federation but it is the skaters who would be blamed. So if the Chinese Fed threatened to release their ages as a new revelation and banned them from skating as if they lied about it then is it really their choice?
 
barbarafan said:
It is not so easy as that..Poverty is rank in most of China..It is possible their families are depending on their skating for various things...The other thing is all the lying about their ages. This was all done by the Chinese Federation but it is the skaters who would be blamed. So if the Chinese Fed threatened to release their ages as a new revelation and banned them from skating as if they lied about it then is it really their choice?
Click to expand...


Like I said: They can leave the situation and find other work, if they want. Regardless of whether the other work pays well or not, they do have that freedom, as far as we know.

Using terminology that's loaded with such historical/political significance doesn't really help advance the argument that they've been treated unfairly. I think most of us are in agreement with that, anyway.
 
Thanks as always for your insightful and thoughtful review, @clairecloutier.

I look forward to seeing your preview of U.S. pairs in advance of Nationals. :)

Re this passage from your review:
"A third area in which the young Russians stand out? Artistry and innovative presentation. Many of these teams are working with new, relatively unknown coaches and choreographers. The results are quite interesting. While other junior pairs skate to warhorses and retreads of older pairs’ programs, the young Russians are trying different types of music and styles—everything from Mad Max to the Scorpions to French torch songs to Strauss waltzes. They’re experimenting, taking risks. It’s exciting, even if some of the experiments don’t fully work out."

Yes, true, but I think it is their technical strengths and wonderful skating skills following in the strong Russian tradition that are the most amazing, particularly for young teams who haven't been together that long as you mentioned. I didn't realize the short time that some of these up-and-coming teams have been together.

Another thing that comes to mind for me is that IMO all these young Russian pairs have been influenced a great deal by Western popular culture, in addition to being impacted by the dynamic creativity and innovative influences of Savchenko/Szolkowy, the energy and flair of Canadian teams, and the competitive intensity of the remarkable high-flying Chinese pairs. These young teams are combining these influences with their strong Russian technical and aesthetic tradition, and that is making for a great deal of excitement. In addition, I am impressed by the up-and-coming Australian team, Alexandrovskaya/Windsor (the female partner of course hails from Russia).

Indeed the top young Russian pairs teams are quite interesting to watch, but as they are still young, their artistic talent is in the early stages of development. For me the most remarkable thing that I'm impressed by is the number of young Russian teams with interesting and engaging personalities, which is frankly a departure from what we usually have seen with the majority of Russian pairs.

Artur Dmitriev is the vibrant exception. And of course the Protopopovs and Gordeeva/Grinkov are iconic and magical exceptions. Bechke/Petrov had a certain appeal under Moskvina. I don't remember Valova/Vasiliev that much, but looking back at some of their performances, I suppose they had more personality than many of the teams that came along later, including Totmianina/Marinin and others whose names I can't recall.
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze had a special elegant quality and a connection that was evident but yet somehow intangible, delicate and ephemeral. Plus for all B/S's talent, they seemed to always make mistakes in crucial moments. I appreciated the energy, flair, and vibrant earthy connection between their Canadian rivals, Sale/ Pelletier, much more. Tot/Mar seemed to have the potential to be more passionate and fiery, but they never truly developed a connection with each other or the audience. It was like looking at a cold work of art that was beautiful, but uninspiring.

Tarasova/Morosov were very bland and boring when they first appeared on the scene, and their music and choreo choices have left a lot to be desired. Still, they are young and they've been trying to work on that weakness. OTOH, their technical and skating skills are exquisite, in the usual Russian tradition. Bazarova/Larionov are forgettable. Again, they had very good technical and skating skills, although they were often inconsistent. Plus, they were kind of mismatched, lacked artistry and had no palpable emotional connection. It was rather annoying seeing them always high in the standings. The most memorable thing about them is Vera's stunning beauty and thin frame. With the right partner, Vera could have soared. I really liked Vera with Andrei Deputat, who brought out the sexy in her. However, their partnership went by the wayside because I suppose they didn't get good competitive results quickly enough for Russian fed.

Maxim Trankov is a mercurial diva with a fiery whirlwind of a personality. It's a shame that he and his soulmate Tatiana Volosozhar were not teamed up sooner. They blazed to the top quickly after pairing up (I don't even remember Max with his former partner). And Ukranian Tat's previous partnership with her former boyfriend Stanislav Morosov was nothing to write home about, although maybe it was better matched than that of Aliona Savchenko with Stanislav. :duh: Thank God Aliona found Ingo Steuer and Robin Szolkowy -- together the threesome from Germany greatly impacted the pairs discipline, although Aliona apparently does not have fond memories of their years forging an innovative path through the heart of pairs skating. Max & Tat have a few memorable programs and moments, but I think they seemed often to be trying too hard to be as edgy and different as Aliona/Robin. As a result, I don't think Max & Tat ever truly made a significant and lasting mark on pairs skating as they had the potential to do. It might have been different had they paired up sooner.

Stolbova/Klimov have suffered from a lack of any significant emotional connection, but they have fashioned themselves after the edgy style of Savchenko/Szolkowy, so they are somewhat of a departure for a Russian pair, as are Ashtakova/Rogonov. The difference is that A/R are still very rough around the edges and lack consistency and polish. Meanwhile, S/K (after their remarkable 2014 Olympic campaign) have experienced ups and downs, but seem to be coming back with a vengeance this season in time to throw down a challenge at Europeans and Worlds. Like the younger Russian teams, S/K are experimenting with different music and taking risks with their choreographic choices and career decisionmaking. I also see S/K making a concerted effort to project a connection with each other, which is admirable. I respect this team and I have been wowed by their determination and resilience. It will be interesting to see what happens, because as you mentioned although top of the podium success for S/K is quite possible, it is by no means certain.

Thanks for your excellent summary. Your observations are always thought-provoking and insightful.
 
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clairecloutier said:
The past 2 years, Russian junior pairs have completely dominated the Junior Grand Prix circuit, winning 2/3 of all pairs medals on the JGP. There is some very exciting new talent coming out Russia! Here is my look at the top young pairs in Russia and how they could affect Russian pairs skating: http://bit.ly/2jGug13.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your blog articles, this and the other ones. It is always an interesting read!
 
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