2023-24 Pairs General Discussion - Join the SBS Double Salchow Club!

AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)

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Well, today was a real mixed bag at Bavarian Open in terms of teams looking for Worlds and Jr Worlds SP TES mins.

Faula/Belle did not compete and neither Kucianova/Bidar or Nagaoka/Moriguchi got the SP TES min for Worlds. NagaMori are entered for Challenge Cup so they can try again there. KucBid are listed as Res 1 on the Challenge Cup entries list so whether they get a chance to try again remains to be seen.

On the Jr side... Zheng/Deng, Enkina/Kovalenko, Rothenbuehler/Berei, Scotti/Quesada and Shimizu/Honda earned the SP TES min. EnKov are now qualified for Jr Worlds as they already had the FS min. Tomorrow we'll see if the other 4 can get the FS min. Crivolap/Mager, Steblyanka/Gneiding, and Pacha/Derechowski did not compete.

Challenge Cup entries as of 1/31 are available - https://www.schaatsen.nl/media/62100/entryl-list-cc2024_v31jan.pdf

Pairs
Index Couple Organization Org.index
1 SCHALLER Sophia / MAYR Livio AUT 1
RES 1 KUCIANOVA Barbora / BIDAR Martin CZE 2
2 VAANANEN Milania / CLERICI Filippo FIN 3
3 KOVALEV Camille / KOVALEV Pavel FRA 4
4 PIEGAD Oceane / STREKALIN Denys FRA 4
Sub FAULA Aurelie / BELLE Theo FRA 4
5 SMART Lydia / MATTICK Harry GBR 5
6 SALATZKI Katalin Janne / ROESELER Lukas GER 6
7 BECCARI Lucrezia / GUARISE Matteo ITA 7
8 CONTI Sara / MACII Niccolo ITA 7
Sub GHILARDI Rebecca / AMBROSINI Filippo ITA 7
9 MIURA Riku / KIHARA Ryuichi JPN 8
10 NAGAOKA Yuna / MORIGUCHI Sumitada JPN 8
11 DANILOVA Daria / TSIBA Michel NED 9
12 CRAFOORD Greta / CRAFOORD John SWE 10
RES 2 MARTINS Isabelle / BEDARD Ryan USA 11

Junior Pairs
Index Couple Organization Org.index
1 SCOTTI Claudia Sinclair / QUESADA Noah ESP 1
2 WOOD Zarah / LAPSKY Alex GBR 2
3 ACKERMANN Aliyah / HARMS Tobija GER 3
4 ROTHENBUEHLER Nora Marleen / BEREI Mozes Jozsef HUN 4

In this case, what does reserves mean?
 

Belsornia

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It’s great to see all these new junior pairs teams, especially from countries without much of a pairs tradition!

And Wood/Lapsky debut at Challenge Cup. Glad they’re getting a chance to compete this season.
 

Andrea82

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Well, today was a real mixed bag at Bavarian Open in terms of teams looking for Worlds and Jr Worlds SP TES mins.


On the Jr side... Zheng/Deng, Enkina/Kovalenko, Rothenbuehler/Berei, Scotti/Quesada and Shimizu/Honda earned the SP TES min. EnKov are now qualified for Jr Worlds as they already had the FS min. Tomorrow we'll see if the other 4 can get the FS min. Crivolap/Mager, Steblyanka/Gneiding, and Pacha/Derechowski did not compete.

All qualified.
36.something for Z/D, R/B and S/Q. Over 41 for S/H.
 

marshallpond

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Too bad for Griffin/Park. Didn't meet the TES and came in last at the Bavarian Open. Guess they will have to really step up and do something amazing to get a JGP spot
 

Karen-W

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Too bad for Griffin/Park. Didn't meet the TES and came in last at the Bavarian Open. Guess they will have to really step up and do something amazing to get a JGP spot
They have 6 months and often teams that young make huge improvement in that amount of time. We'll have to see how our teams do at Jr Worlds - if Flores/Wang skate in Taipei like they did in Columbus, then I think 2nd is doable and that will earn us 3 spots at all 4 JGPs.
 

marshallpond

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They have 6 months and often teams that young make huge improvement in that amount of time. We'll have to see how our teams do at Jr Worlds - if Flores/Wang skate in Taipei like they did in Columbus, then I think 2nd is doable and that will earn us 3 spots at all 4 JGPs.
That will be great. I first saw Carter at the Norwood Championship Series in 2021, and he was really good with his then-partner. Too bad, the partner popped on a throw and banged her chin on the ice at the practice before the event, requiring lots of stitches.
 

Karen-W

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That will be great. I first saw Carter at the Norwood Championship Series in 2021, and he was really good with his then-partner. Too bad, the partner popped on a throw and banged her chin on the ice at the practice before the event, requiring lots of stitches.
It might still be tough for them to get a JGP assignment. Flores/Wang, Williams/Lewer, Zheng/Deng, Moss/Galbavy and Carpenter/Maravilla all scored higher than Park/Griffin at Nats. Presuming the Jr pairs men age max is raised that will give Williams/Lewer at least one more JGP season and they, along with Flores/Wang are going to be guaranteed 2 JGPs. The other three will get at least 1 and probably will be in line for a 2nd if they perform well at their first one. Then we have the novice teams coming up - Jarmoc/Witkowski and Taich/Chapa both scored within 5-6 points of Park/Griffin and I expect they'll be in the mix for JGP assignments as well. We'll have to see how everyone looks next summer but I'm really hoping and praying we can secure the 12 maximum spots in pairs on the JGP otherwise some teams who could really benefit from international experience are going to be left at home.
 

skatingguy

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They have 6 months and often teams that young make huge improvement in that amount of time. We'll have to see how our teams do at Jr Worlds - if Flores/Wang skate in Taipei like they did in Columbus, then I think 2nd is doable and that will earn us 3 spots at all 4 JGPs.
Have we seen any indication that the Georgians intend to compete at Junior Worlds? I'm not seeing a rational for going from their perspective - there's no consideration for spots on the Junior Grand Prix for Georgia - they don't have the depth.
 

Karen-W

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Have we seen any indication that the Georgians intend to compete at Junior Worlds? I'm not seeing a rational for going from their perspective - there's no consideration for spots on the Junior Grand Prix for Georgia - they don't have the depth.
I don't see any reason why they won't. That's easy prize money for them. That's rationale enough.

It looks like the Junior Worlds field is set with TWENTY-ONE teams representing 15 countries in Taipei! Pairs is definitely growing and improving.

CAN = Kemp/Elizarov, Ariano Kent/Laliberte Laurent
CHN = Shi/Wang, Yang/Deng
CZE = Cohen/Vochozka
ESP = Scotti/Quesada
FRA = Ehrhard/Pellegris, Telemaque/Coulon
GBR = Hay/McLeod
GEO = Metelkina/Berulava
GER = Ackermann/Harms, Loewenherz/Loewenherz
HUN = Rothenbuehler/Berei
ISR = Enkina/Kovalenko
ITA = Napolitano/Comi
JPN = Shimizu/Honda
SVK = Sitkova/Kubacak
UKR = Sierova/Khobta
USA = Flores/Wang, Williams/Lewer, Zheng/Deng
 

Karen-W

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Nagaoka/Moriguchi did manage to get the Worlds FS TES min today, so Challenge Cup will be just about getting the SP min.
 

marshallpond

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Jarmoc/Witkowski and Taich/Chapa both scored within 5-6 points of Park/Griffin and I expect they'll be in the mix for JGP assignments as well.
Chapa is aging out of juniors, and I think the plan is for Taich to find a new partner. I know they have approached some junior men like Elano if they'd be willing to do pairs.

And, of course, there'd be new pairs coming in, like this one from Boston


Zach LoPinto is a really good singles skater (he was #2 in the national ranking for Novice Men in 2022, though he didn't qualify for the Junior Men nationals last month). He used to do pairs at the juvenile level and was lucky to have found a young girl who could do triple jumps. So we will see if this pairing will pan out
 

Karen-W

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Chapa is aging out of juniors, and I think the plan is for Taich to find a new partner. I know they have approached some junior men like Elano if they'd be willing to do pairs.

And, of course, there'd be new pairs coming in, like this one from Boston


Zach LoPinto is a really good singles skater (he was #2 in the national ranking for Novice Men in 2022, though he didn't qualify for the Junior Men nationals last month). He used to do pairs at the juvenile level and was lucky to have found a young girl who could do triple jumps. So we will see if this pairing will pan out
Chapa only ages out of juniors if the age max is not raised - and I think that it is highly unlikely the max won't be raised by the ISU Congress this summer.

As it is, there are 6-8 teams who will be junior-age eligible next season and 4 (5 if Williams/Lewer are able to remain in juniors internationally next season) of them have already scored 120+ - I would expect those teams to be high on the list for 2 JGPs and teams in the 110-120 range to be hoping for consideration. Any new teams are going to have to really impress, straight out of the gate at some of the early NQS comps next summer.
 

Karen-W

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Cross-posting from the Dance Hall thread...

Because I don't know where else to put this (it's too skating-centered for the movie thread): Ben Agosto and Alexe Gilles have Instagram posts up talking about how they worked on Argylle.



I saw the clip and credits listed on John Crafoord's IG story last week and this might also belong in the pairs general discussion thread ;). There is a pretty spectacular looking stunt that looks suspiciously like a pairs throw and Aljona Savchenko was listed in the credits as well.
 

AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)

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zigzig

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tony

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Sorry to be off topic but I couldn't find a competition-specific thread. Why is Kaori competing here? Seems so random and unnecessary as we approach Worlds.
It’s a month before Worlds. Senior skaters have almost 2 months of nothing after 4CC/Euros if they don’t choose to compete in one of these events (and/or have domestic competitions as an option).
 

Karen-W

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Sorry to be off topic but I couldn't find a competition-specific thread. Why is Kaori competing here? Seems so random and unnecessary as we approach Worlds.

It’s a month before Worlds. Senior skaters have almost 2 months of nothing after 4CC/Euros if they don’t choose to compete in one of these events (and/or have domestic competitions as an option).
Yup - Kao Miura and Hana Yoshida are competing in the Tallink Hotels Cup in Tallinn this weekend, so Japan seems to be trying to get their Worlds team members out there for a senior B ahead of Worlds if they want one and didn't compete at 4CCs.
 

zigzig

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I guess it's not that close timing wise but what is the strategy? Just to show dominance by going to a small competition and winning by a 30 point margin?
 

tony

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I guess it's not that close timing wise but what is the strategy? Just to show dominance by going to a small competition and winning by a 30 point margin?
😂 maybe she will be in Europe tuning up her programs or simply just wants to compete again without such a long break.

Should she just not compete internationally from December until Worlds because she’s likely to win all of those competitions? Pizarrone is also entered, by the way.
 

zigzig

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😂 maybe she will be in Europe tuning up her programs or simply just wants to compete again without such a long break.

Should she just not compete internationally from December until Worlds because she’s likely to win all of those competitions? Pizarrone is also entered, by the way.
kewl
 

AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)

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Well, at least that’s cool they are going out and competing, while the top US people are like no I wanna get ready for worlds….. three months from now. Lol and all these skaters will get more ISU points correct?
 

Karen-W

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Well, at least that’s cool they are going out and competing, while the top US people are like no I wanna get ready for worlds….. three months from now. Lol and all these skaters will get more ISU points correct?
Love seeing a general pairs discussion being completely side-railed by the usual kvetching about the top US skaters. :rolleyes:

But, since we're going there... Worlds is about 7 weeks (less than 2 months) after US Nationals. By contrast, Japanese Nationals was at the end of December. Given that Worlds and Nationals are the two biggest and most important competitions of the season and skaters try to peak for both, I have no grudge with any US skater who decides to not compete between Nats and Worlds. Also note that 2 of the 3 pairs teams and 1 dance team assigned to Worlds DID also compete at 4CCs the following week (and ChoBat only WD due to being sick).

As far as WS points - sure, they'll get some WS points but it probably won't move them far enough up the standings to affect their start group at Worlds.
 

Karen-W

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For one certain person it would
Who do you think it would impact?

Last warm-up group at Worlds - Sakamoto, Hendrickx, Levito, Lee, Gubanova, C Kim - Chaeyeon has 3439 points and the next nearest woman who will be at Worlds is Kurakova. Even if she were to win Challenge Cup, she'd only get 31 incremental points since she already has points from 2 senior Bs this season.

Penultimate warm-up group at Worlds - Kurakova, Pinzarrone, Chiba, Petrokina, Schizas, Yoshida - Schizas has 2663 Yoshida has 2645 points. Next closest are You and Glenn with 2436 and 2402 points. At most, either could earn 250 points. That would get You ahead of both Schizas and Yoshida (until Yoshida's own points from the late season senior B she has are added) and into the final group. Glenn could only pass Yoshida and, again, that would be only if Yoshida places 6th or lower at her senior B and doesn't earn any points. The chances of that happening (given the field at Tallink Hotels Cup) are about 1%.

3rd to last warm-up group at Worlds - You, Glenn, Repond, Stepcenko, Sauter, Joos - the next 6 women on the WS list (Mikutina, Kaiser, Ting, Taljegard, Serna, and Feigin) are close to maxed out on senior B points and none of them could earn enough to pass Joos.

The men's field is pretty much set too.

Last warm-up group - Malinin, Siao Him Fa, Uno, Kagiyama, J Cha, Miura - Britschgi can't catch Miura with incremental points and Egadze is too far back period.

Penultimate group - Britschgi, Egadze, Vasiljevs, Memola, Pulkinen, Frangipani - theoretically, both Pulkinen and Frangi could be pushed out of this group if Brown was doing a late season senior B (he could earn enough to push Frangi out), but realistically, Shaidorov will only push one of them out (he could earn enough to push both Cam & Frangi out) since Brown isn't doing a late season senior B.

3rd to last warm-up group - Shaidorov, Brown, Jin, Chiu, A Selevko, Hagara - no one behind them that is close enough points-wise to bump Hagara is competing in a late season senior B.

Dance is really set -
Last warm-up group - GuiFab, FearGib, ChoBat, GilPoir, FBSoer
Penultimate group - ReedAmbru, LopBri, LajLag, CarPon, TurkVer (DemLeM will move up if LajLag are out)
3rd to last group - DemLeM, Taschlers, Les Gacs (if LajLag are out), LimQuan, Mrazeks, HarChan - HarChan could be bumped by SouFir if they place no lower than 5th at Challenge Cup
4th to last group - SouFir, BraSom, JvrStef, DavSmo, OriPir

And then there's Pairs -
Last warm-up group - ConMac, SDDes, MiuKih, HocKun
Penultimate group - PavSvia, PlaFern, ChanHowe, BecGuar - BecGuar could be bumped by either Les Kovs or DanTsi if they earn enough points at Challenge Cup
3rd to last group - GoluGM, PerMich, Les Kovs, DanTsi
4th to last group - HaseVol, KamOShea, LaurEth, VLDigs

There are very few skaters/teams at this time who could earn enough points doing a senior B to affect their warm-up group at Worlds. Sure, it's possible, but is it worth it? Most of these skaters have determined it isn't. Maybe you should let them figure out what is best for their training and preparation for Worlds.
 

AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)

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I’m going to say it again I hate the new rules of skating in order of world points, I like it was all mixed up and you could see like Michelle in the first group or Maria in the first group, I love it like that.
 

Wyliefan

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Last warm-up group - GuiFab, FearGib, ChoBat, GilPoir, FBSoer
Penultimate group - ReedAmbru, LopBri, LajLag, CarPon, TurkVer (DemLeM will move up if LajLag are out)
3rd to last group - DemLeM, Taschlers, Les Gacs (if LajLag are out), LimQuan, Mrazeks, HarChan - HarChan could be bumped by SouFir if they place no lower than 5th at Challenge Cup
4th to last group - SouFir, BraSom, JvrStef, DavSmo, OriPir
You've got 4-5-6-5 -- is that right? I thought all the groups would be either 4 or 5.
 

tony

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You've got 4-5-6-5 -- is that right? I thought all the groups would be either 4 or 5.
Groups won't have more than 5 unless two teams are exactly tied in world standings points and they are both slotting in for the final position within a group. She slotted in L/LG in third to last group if FB/S don't compete, as noted, and then everyone else ahead would move up one.

However, unless there are 39 or 40 entries, then some of the teams at the bottom of the fourth to last group are going to be randomly positioned somewhere in the first half of the event rather than a guaranteed spot in that group.
 

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