2022-23 Pairs General Discussion - You Get a GP! You Get a GP! All of You Get a GP!

clairecloutier

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Way back in the old days, pairs used to have a lot more leeway in terms of elements they could or not include. Some pairs did three throws, some did none. Some did 2 twists or 2 death spirals, some include multiple SBS jumps, some had fewer, etc. Maybe it would help the worldwide state of pairs if teams had much more choice of elements in the long program? So teams bad at SBS jumps could maybe do one SBS pass but 3 throws and teams bad at jumping could do more lifts, twists, spins and death spirals. The points value of the elements would likely need to be changed and maybe there could be more choreographic base value elements similar to ice dance.


This is something I’ve thought often about, and am interested in. It would also do something to add variety to the programs.
 

Karen-W

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Challenge Cup entries are up - https://www.schaatsen.nl/media/57906/entrylist-cc2023_v10feb.pdf

12 senior teams including Schaller/Mayr, Piegad/Strekalin*, Gamez/Korovin and the Crafoords making one last shot at getting the Worlds TES mins.

*France has two teams with the Worlds TES mins (Les Kovs and Vouillamoz/Giniaux), but I think the preference from the FFSG would be to send PieStrek to Worlds since VouGin (and Erhard/Pellegris) are doing Jr Worlds.

The 8 Junior entries include Austria's Ghedini/Maierhofer making their international debut (they competed at Austrian Nationals in December), as well as the USA's Flores/Wang also making their international debut.
 

Karen-W

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How close have G/K been? I really hope they get it. 🤞
Worlds TES SP is 29, FS is 46.

Schaller/Mayr SP 26.04, FS 53.58
Piegad/Strekalin SP 26.60, FS 47.83
Gamez/Korovin SP 25.26, FS 47.73
Crafoords SP 27.47, FS 55.67 (these are from summer 2021, so pre-injury; this season SP 27.25, FS 46.71)
 

AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)

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Challenge Cup entries are up - https://www.schaatsen.nl/media/57906/entrylist-cc2023_v10feb.pdf

12 senior teams including Schaller/Mayr, Piegad/Strekalin*, Gamez/Korovin and the Crafoords making one last shot at getting the Worlds TES mins.

*France has two teams with the Worlds TES mins (Les Kovs and Vouillamoz/Giniaux), but I think the preference from the FFSG would be to send PieStrek to Worlds since VouGin (and Erhard/Pellegris) are doing Jr Worlds.

The 8 Junior entries include Austria's Ghedini/Maierhofer making their international debut (they competed at Austrian Nationals in December), as well as the USA's Flores/Wang also making their international debut.

This looks like a really good event for a challenger series.
 

Karen-W

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Bringing this over from the US Pairs discussion...
Looks like Megan Wessenberg is searching for a partner.
Megan is 24.

Other American women looking for partners include:
Julia Fennell, 23 (at WASA) - https://www.instagram.com/p/CjGxSrYLI31/
Ariela Masarsky, 20 (at WASA) - https://www.instagram.com/p/CiqpPB1rNm9/
Cayla Smith, 14 - https://www.instagram.com/p/CoZp0JOM2H5/

Bruno Massot's club is featuring skaters who are in his group, a couple of whom are searching for partners:

Tom Bouvart, 21 - https://www.instagram.com/p/CofH8_NNq4Y/
Alina Orlova, 21 (originally from Moscow, relocated to France last year) - https://www.instagram.com/p/CouYBOHN7iN/

Harley Windsor said he is looking for a new partner also, as has Andy Deng.

I don't think we know for sure the status of either Misha Mitrofanov or Daniil Parkman, but one would think they're also in the market for a new partner.

I'm sure we'll see more splits and partner search announcements in the next few weeks, and keeping an eye on IPS should be interesting.
 

Karen-W

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Just want to report in that Sierova/Khobta and Murakami/Moriguchi are both training in Oakville, while Golubeva/Giotopoulos-Mooreare already in Montreal ahead of Jr Worlds.

Hopefully they all remain healthy for the next 10 days ahead of their competition! Same for the other 11 teams, and, hopefully, the Chinese team don't have any visa or travel issues (the other 10 teams shouldn't have any issues as they're NA or EU skaters).
 

Karen-W

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Isn't Junior Worlds in Calgary? ;)
Yesssss... that was the point of my post. The teams who are traveling the farthest or who might have visa issues are already in the country, so we can be assured they'll be there (unlike the poor Chinese dance teams who had to WD from 4CCs the week of the competition).
 

skatingguy

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Yesssss... that was the point of my post. The teams who are traveling the farthest or who might have visa issues are already in the country, so we can be assured they'll be there (unlike the poor Chinese dance teams who had to WD from 4CCs the week of the competition).
And guess my winky face was not enough of an emoji. It may also have been too much of an inside joke given the travel issues that have been experienced by people in Canada in the past 6 months to a year.
 

Karen-W

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Gamez/Korovin earned the SP min today at Challenge Cup! And that means we have a potential 24 entries at Worlds, depending on whether or not 1) Safina/Berulava are healthy and ready to compete, and 2) Barquero/Zandron are allowed to compete yet (it's been a year since her doping violation, but who knows what their status with WADA is).

There will be either 11 or 12 seeded teams, but we won't know the groupings (beyond 1-4 which are guaranteed MiuKih, KniFraz, ConMac, and ChanHowe) until after the points from Challenge Cup and Jr Worlds are determined.
 

Sylvia

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Gamez/Korovin earned the SP min today at Challenge Cup!
Here's the link to watch Gamez/Korovin's Challenge Cup SP on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CpHARFHtuL6/
This short article mentions that they are the first pair representing the Philippines and Southeast Asia to qualify for Worlds:

In case this GS article/interrview with Bruno Marcotte wasn't posted after 4CC:
 

miffy

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I’m so happy for them (well him haha, but it’s nice to see her looking so happy with him after 4CC) :scream:
 

Karen-W

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Pairs groups are now set with the Jr Worlds points added in to the WS - 23 teams, 12 seeded

Group 6 - Miura/Kihara, Knierim/Frazier, Conti/Macii, Chan/Howe
Group 5 - Stellato-Dudek/Deschamps, Golubeva/Giotopoulos Moore, Hocke/Kunkel, Kovalev/Kovalev
Group 4 - Safina/Berulava, Sierova/Khobta, Danilova/Tsiba, Efimova/Blommaert
Groups 1-3 (3-4-4) - Osipova/Epstein, McIntosh/Mimar, Vouillamoz/Giniaux, Pavlova/Sviatchenko, Kam/O'Shea, Vaipan-Law/Digby, Pereira/Michaud, Gamez/Korovin, Simioli/Zarbo, Smart/Mattick, Zhang/Yang
 

puglover

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I am so happy for Ava Kemp and Yonathan Elizarov who placed 5th in both segments and ended up 6th overall at Junior Worlds skating mostly here in Winnipeg and representing Manitoba. I know Canada is a strong federation and most Canadian kids skate but Manitoba is not a figure skating destination. When my kids skated here in the "90's Brandon had a strong club and the Winnipeg Winter Club had a strong skating club, along with other rinks. Things have changed. Three cheers for the coaches who have continued to keep the sport alive here and skaters who take the resources at hand and make the best of it. Four of my children skated to various levels of success but I know they all benefitted hugely from their time in the sport. Also, happy to cheer for a wonderful team from Regina coached by David Schultz. My heart is full!! Yikes - sorry - I think I have Yonathan's name right now.
 
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kalamalka

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I too am very happy for Kemp and Elizarov. It's a great accomplishment for first year juniors, and they have a couple more years of eligibility. They caught my eye as novices last year, and they've made a lot of progress just since the beginning of the season.
(also cheers to the MB coaches - I've noticed other good young skaters coming out of there recently)
 

clairecloutier

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I think Kemp/Elizarov have potential, but I was a little bit wondering about their relationship from the kiss-n-cry interaction. There were none of the typical hugs, etc., while waiting for scores. Seemed a bit chilly. (Maybe it's just me.)
 

Sylvia

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Phil Hersh had tweeted yesterday that USFS "president Samuel Auxier told me in a text today, "The age issue is being discussed with ISU and what options (there) could be. Potentially teams with this issue could be ‘grandfathered’ forward but (we're) early in discussions.""

TSL thread (first 2 of the 4 tweets copied out below): https://twitter.com/SkatingLesson/status/1631778926887305216
There was an ISU meeting at Junior Worlds to allow certain teams to have an exemption and be grandfathered to allow them to compete longer in junior if certain partners will be ineligible for senior next year with the age rule change. The ISU is supposed to approve at Congress.
There will be another meeting at Worlds about this. Federations are concerned that many teams will be ineligible for three years and wind up splitting, which will harm the discipline.
 
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Sylvia

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The 3 pairs at 2023 Junior Worlds where the female partner will be 15 and the male partner 21 in 2023-24 are:
1 Sophia BARAM / Daniel TIOUMENTSEV USA
4 Haruna MURAKAMI / Sumitada MORIGUCHI JPN
13 Aliyah ACKERMANN / Tobija HARMS GER
 

Karen-W

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Phil Hersh had tweeted yesterday that USFS "president Samuel Auxier told me in a text today, "The age issue is being discussed with ISU and what options (there) could be. Potentially teams with this issue could be ‘grandfathered’ forward but (we're) early in discussions.""

TSL thread (first 2 of the 4 tweets copied out below): https://twitter.com/SkatingLesson/status/1631778926887305216
The other 2 tweets are also interesting, yet I'm not even sure HOW this could work...

A proposal was discussed that countries should allow countries who qualify X number of spots to give their spot to other countries if they aren't using them to fill out the field.

JPN has three spots. They won't use all three. In this scenario, a spot could go to the field and be used for a country that only has one spot (Italy).

How would this even work? Italy has one spot because they didn't have any teams at Worlds last year. The field is already at 23 teams which is pretty close to the ISU's sweet spot with 6 groups. Would the country relinquishing the spots get to pick the recipient? Or would they just go to the next country on the SB or WS lists without 2 or 3 teams already entered? And why does this even matter since we're ging to have QRs starting up again in 2025?
 

leilaofpaper

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Personally, I don’t think the teams should be grandfathered in. I think it was inappropriate to team up a 13 year old with someone more than 6 years older than her, even when it was within the rules.

Discouraging these types of age gaps will lessen the chance of abuse or just gross power indifferences in these partnerships.
 

RoseRed

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I'm okay with grandfathering if it means staying in junior longer (rather than letting the girls into senior sooner), but it does raise competitive/fairness questions if you're going to have a much older guy in juniors. I guess it depends on how many extra years they'll give the guys in junior. One year, I have no problems. Two, not sure. Three, I think no.

For example, Sophia Baram won't be senior eligible until the 2026-27 season. If they're in junior again next season, that seems fine to me. But I think it would definitely be too much to have Daniel allowed in juniors in the 2025-26 season at 23. That wouldn't be fair to other teams.

I'm also okay with it if there is no grandfathering. I know it can be hard to find partners, but I don't think junior teams should really be having these huge age gaps if possible. Baram/Tioumentsev have a 6.5+ year age gap (7 based on the ISU calendar). About the same for Murakami/Moriguchi. Ackermann/Harms have a 6 year gap. That's a lot. If the rules don't make room for that in juniors, well that's not unreasonable imo.
 

Flip Jump

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Personally, I don’t think the teams should be grandfathered in. I think it was inappropriate to team up a 13 year old with someone more than 6 years older than her, even when it was within the rules.

Discouraging these types of age gaps will lessen the chance of abuse or just gross power indifferences in these partnerships.
I think this is a hard call. For example Kam & O’Shea have an almost 14 year age gap and at 18 & 32 respectively that is just as worrying as 14 & 20 (Sonia & Daniel). I am not sure what the right answer is but I think there is a lot to consider. Not allowing big age gaps in juniors does not stop it from happening in seniors.
 
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leilaofpaper

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I think this is a hard call. For example Kam & O’Shea have an almost 14 year age gap and at 18 & 32 respectively that is just as worrying as 14 & 20 (Sonia & Daniel). I am not sure what the right answer is but I think there is a lot to consider. Not allowing big age gaps in juniors does not stop it from happening in seniors.
Okay but I would still argue a teenage girl is much more vulnerable. Large age gaps in seniors are worrying true but at least at that stage they’re both grown adults.

And the whole reason people want this grandfathering rule is so they can continue onto seniors - right?
 

Karen-W

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Okay but I would still argue a teenage girl is much more vulnerable. Large age gaps in seniors are worrying true but at least at that stage they’re both grown adults.

And the whole reason people want this grandfathering rule is so they can continue onto seniors - right?
Well, I can't say that I think an 18-year old is a "grown adult" with the life experience and confidence to recognize a potentially abusive training partner and environment, especially in this sport. Yes, she can vote and take out loans, etc, but there's a lot of yikes with a 14-year age difference.

Take this out of the skating context and people would have just as many concerns about an 18 yr old dating a 34 year old as they would a 14 yr old dating a 20 yr old (gender being irrelevant in either scenario).

I'm not particularly a fan of the grandfathering idea. We've talked about the issues in pairs skating with male partners needing more upper body strength that isn't typically developed until they're in their late teens/early twenties, and about female partners needing to start learn pairs skills when they're smaller (and more fearless).

I feel like it would be better for the sport if junior pairs teams were limited to no more than one throw triple and/or triple twist, as well as no more than one triple jumping pass per program. Junior pairs already do one less lift, which is good, and I think limiting the triples on the technical elements side would be beneficial if the age limits remain as they are or only current pairs teams are grandfathered in to whatever plan they come up with (and I'd require federatios submit a list of all current pairs teams they have who need to be grandfathered, whether theyve competed internationally or just domestically).
 

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