2018-19 Singles & Pairs Scale of Values, Levels, and GOE guidelines

[Meoima]

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/166593985464/yuzuroohanyu-replied-to-your-post-why-do-you

https://imgur.com/a/xEfbNd1
https://imgur.com/a/lYAUEOf
https://imgur.com/a/FBzFX1j

This 3A is pre-rotating. Is this GOE +5?

you know anything about the Axel and the edge jumps?

 

[sleepingsleeping]

2018Olympic Games
Men Single Skating - Free Skating
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_MenSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/SEG002OF.HTM

J1　Kazakhstan
J2　USA
J3　Uzbekistan
J4　Japan
J5　Israel
J6　RUSSIA
J7　China
J8　Czech Republic
J9　Latvia

Total GOE given by each judge to each competitor.
Plus / minus total GOE

J1　Kazakhstan
23.40 FERNANDEZ Javier
21.40 HANYU Yuzuru
15.10 BYCHENKO Alexei
13.60 CHEN Nathan
11.40 UNO Shoma
11.40 Boyang JIN
11.30 RIPPON Adam
10.60 CHAN Patrick
6.90 KOLYADA Mikhail
-0.50 ZHOU Vincent

J2　USA
19.10 FERNANDEZ Javier
16.80 CHEN Nathan
13.20 RIPPON Adam
10.10 CHAN Patrick
9.70 HANYU Yuzuru
8.70 BYCHENKO Alexei
7.70 ZHOU Vincent
6.20 UNO Shoma
3.10 Boyang JIN
0.00 KOLYADA Mikhail

J3　Uzbekistan
19.50 FERNANDEZ Javier
17.30 HANYU Yuzuru
14.30 CHEN Nathan
9.50 UNO Shoma
9.00 Boyang JIN
8.80 BYCHENKO Alexei
7.40 RIPPON Adam
7.10 CHAN Patrick
3.40 KOLYADA Mikhail
1.90 ZHOU Vincent

J4　Japan
19.50 HANYU Yuzuru
16.90 FERNANDEZ Javier
12.10 CHEN Nathan
11.50 BYCHENKO Alexei
11.00 CHAN Patrick
8.40 RIPPON Adam
7.10 Boyang JIN
5.60 UNO Shoma
0.90 ZHOU Vincent
0.60 KOLYADA Mikhail

J5　Israel
14.90 FERNANDEZ Javier
14.40 HANYU Yuzuru
11.90 CHEN Nathan
9.30 BYCHENKO Alexei
8.50 CHAN Patrick
7.90 RIPPON Adam
5.30 UNO Shoma
5.10 Boyang JIN
2.60 ZHOU Vincent
-0.80 KOLYADA Mikhail


J6　RUSSIA
15.70 FERNANDEZ Javier
15.10 HANYU Yuzuru
8.40 CHEN Nathan
7.80 UNO Shoma
7.60 BYCHENKO Alexei
6.90 RIPPON Adam
6.40 CHAN Patrick
1.40 Boyang JIN
1.10 KOLYADA Mikhail
-1.90 ZHOU Vincent

J7　China
20.80 Boyang JIN
18.80 HANYU Yuzuru
10.60 CHEN Nathan
10.50 CHAN Patrick
10.30 RIPPON Adam
9.50 BYCHENKO Alexei
8.20 FERNANDEZ Javier
1.40 UNO Shoma
-0.30 ZHOU Vincent
-3.90 KOLYADA Mikhail

J8　Czech Republic
17.40 FERNANDEZ Javier
17.10 HANYU Yuzuru
11.20 CHEN Nathan
8.50 BYCHENKO Alexei
6.30 CHAN Patrick
5.70 RIPPON Adam
3.90 UNO Shoma
2.40 Boyang JIN
0.20 ZHOU Vincent
-4.20 KOLYADA Mikhail

J9　Latvia
18.60 FERNANDEZ Javier
16.30 HANYU Yuzuru
14.60 BYCHENKO Alexei
12.80 CHEN Nathan
10.80 CHAN Patrick
9.80 UNO Shoma
7.00 RIPPON Adam
3.30 Boyang JIN
-0.50 KOLYADA Mikhail
-5.50 ZHOU Vincent

In this way the scores and rankings of each judge are quite different. Expanding the range of GOE will make this sport political. If we do not stipulate GOE criteria finely, each judge can judge in any way.

 

[BittyBug]

I did like the example in the Steps of using the music. I don't know who the skater is but that was really interesting.

Giada Russo from ITA.

 

[Aussie Willy]

What useful information did this "webinar" provide?

I don't think anything I can add or say will enlighten you. And then you will just try to shoot me down for not knowing sh*t.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Giada Russo from ITA.

Thanks for that. I really liked it.

 

[Aussie Willy]

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/166593985464/yuzuroohanyu-replied-to-your-post-why-do-you

https://imgur.com/a/xEfbNd1
https://imgur.com/a/lYAUEOf
https://imgur.com/a/FBzFX1j

This 3A is pre-rotating. Is this GOE +5?

They were not using the example to demonstrate a +5 element. They were specifically talking about height and distance as a one bullet point and one reason to give a +GOE.

Anyway you look at all the positives and then if it was (and only if it was) pre-rotated would you apply the negative GOE.

However the example is not pre-rotated for an axel so I am not sure what you are looking at. And posting individual photos do not demonstrate that it was pre-rotated.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

https://www.jsfresults.com/data/fs/pdfs/comm/comm2089.pdf
Communication No. 2089

Additional Remarks

Program Components
As a guideline the score ten (10) should not be awarded for any of the components in a program containing a Fall or Serious error.

ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
LADIES FREE SKATING
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gprus2017/gprus2017_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Judge No.7 Mr. Alexandre GOROJDANOV BLR

Evgenia MEDVEDEVA
Despite the 2A FALL, Bulgarian judges gave 10 points in 3 of 5 items.

What is "guideline"?
I think that there is no meaning to prescribe if it is a "guideline" that does not need to comply.

What is "Serious error"?

I think the biggest problem is that the rules are unclear and the ISU is left to the judge's discretion too much.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Also by showing examples of not good would be naming and shaming skaters which is not a good idea either. People would actually be more upset about that. And then accuse the ISU of being biased against certain skaters.

Gordon-Poltarek and Selby had no problem doing this on the Ice Dance video, and they were pretty harsh, although harsher on the retired couples doing Tango Romantica. They used a performance of V/M's twizzles as an example of an element that could only earn +3 GOE, because they were too far apart, and no negatives are allowed in ID for +4 and +5, ie, no netting out a negative with a positive.

 

[Dobre]

I bow to all you brave people who dedicate this much time to being educated.

Gordon-Poltarek and Selby had no problem doing this on the Ice Dance video, and they were pretty harsh, although harsher on the retired couples doing Tango Romantica.

That fits with the dance committee discussion during Worlds. They already said that no one performed the rocker in Tango Romantica correctly the last time around. That was supposedly why it was initially left out of the keypoints. And according to the dedicated souls who watched that discussion, Shpilband & Bourzat insisted that it could be done and wanted the rocker in. (Maybe some other people did, but they were apparently the ones who argued for it at the meeting). So now it's in.

And we get to find out if the dancers can really do it when it is designated as a keypoint. (My guess it that some of the callers will say yes, and some will say no). But if everyone is "off their rockers," then I guess harsh will be fair.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Gordon-Poltarek and Selby had no problem doing this on the Ice Dance video, and they were pretty harsh, although harsher on the retired couples doing Tango Romantica. They used a performance of V/M's twizzles as an example of an element that could only earn +3 GOE, because they were too far apart, and no negatives are allowed in ID for +4 and +5, ie, no netting out a negative with a positive.

I haven't watched the ice dance video yet. But I will get around to it. When it comes to showing negative examples, I do think you have to be careful. I have attended a seminar quite a few years ago with Halina and she was very knowledgeable.

 

[kwanfan1818]

And we get to find out if the dancers can really do it when it is designated as a keypoint. (My guess it that some of the callers will say yes, and some will say no). But if everyone is "off their rockers," then I guess harsh will be fair.

What I found interesting was that Gordon-Poltarek and Shelby were counting up the negatives on what will be key points, and so will the tech committee in terms of levels. What the judges will do is another thing.

They also were calling negatives on holds that weren't required when the dancers in the video did TR, but they were clear about pointing this out.

 

[Meoima]

They were not using the example to demonstrate a +5 element. They were specifically talking about height and distance as a one bullet point and one reason to give a +GOE.

Anyway you look at all the positives and then if it was (and only if it was) pre-rotated would you apply the negative GOE.

However the example is not pre-rotated for an axel so I am not sure what you are looking at. And posting individual photos do not demonstrate that it was pre-rotated.

Too bad when a great Axel is called pre-rotated just because some certain haters do not know about jumps. I still remember some anti saying someone 4T was wrong by using images of a... 4S. At that point, I was like... oh ha ha ha ok.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

There is no rule that it is good that rotation can be reduced with Axel jump.
For example, 4T of 4T-3T of SP has the same problem.

https://imgur.com/a/rrsPQ6E
https://imgur.com/a/i3kpCej
https://imgur.com/a/VAed86Y　　landing
https://imgur.com/a/bvm7Ner
https://imgur.com/a/fjD7Fux

There is insufficient rotation when landing. It is a jump that will become UR. However, many judges are giving 3 of the full marks.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_MenSingleSkating_SP_Scores.pdf

As the range of GOE broadens, the difference in judgment creates more significant differences.

 

[Kateri]

[EDIT: just saw it was originally a livestream, in which case I take it back!]
I am in stitches at these communications. Can the ISU not find a single person who can edit video? To remove the bits where they start the wrong example, or accidentally flash up the desktop background (SUDDEN LION!!! ) literally cannot find the steps example videos so they move onto choreo instead, or just plain forget what to say? Bless them, but i'm dying here.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

I think that it is not good to sample an active competitor as "good example" or "bad example". That is because it gives a prejudice to judges. There are examples where prejudice has missed famous competitor 's jump. There are many examples where jumps like UR are overlooked.

At the same time, I think that "review system" is not fair. You should check all elements of all competitors with "review" if used.
Due to the preconception of the technical controller, there are many cases where competitors' jumps that are liked by judges and technical controllers are overlooked. A jump with a green mark is not verified. That is a problem. While technical controllers understand this, there are cases where they pass green marks on the jumps of their country's competitors and pass it through.

 

[Rock2]

In this way the scores and rankings of each judge are quite different. Expanding the range of GOE will make this sport political. If we do not stipulate GOE criteria finely, each judge can judge in any way.

I've said this so many times that I'm in danger of getting removed from these boards.

The objective of the IJS updates as I see it is to give more power to panels to subjectively select the winners. We're trending back to 6.0 in that, more and more, you can just type in whatever you want.

We are reducing values of base tech (largely objective scoring) and increasing the % of scoring that comes from the subjective side for which there is almost no accountability. PCS is fully subjective and GoE is mostly subjective in the sense that you can't mark around falls and major errors but can otherwise score what you want without consequence.

Major step back for the sport.

My expectation is that judges will largely behave on GoE changes for first two years. But as Olympics approach you're going to see +4/+5 given out like candy in a race to push favorites into contention.

Pffffft.

 

[BittyBug]

We are reducing values of base tech (largely objective scoring) and increasing the % of scoring that comes from the subjective side for which there is almost no accountability. PCS is fully subjective and GoE is mostly subjective in the sense that you can't mark around falls and major errors but can otherwise score what you want without consequence.

While I do not share your cynical view about the intentions of this change, I do agree with your objection to the change in weighting for BV vs. GOE. A 3A used to be BV 8.5 with GOE +/- 3.0. So GOE was a 35% corridor around the BV. Now the BV is 8 with GOE +/- 4.0, so GOE is a 50% corridor.

Intuitively, I would have preferred them to keep the same relative % and just spread them out over the extended GOE (-5 through +5), but the ISU might have determined that for the new shadings to be effective there needs to be a meaningful difference in GOE points awarded, and spreading +/- 3 in tenths is so marginal that the intention of the new stratification would be not be manifested in the scores.

 

[bladesofgorey]

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/166593985464/yuzuroohanyu-replied-to-your-post-why-do-you

https://imgur.com/a/xEfbNd1
https://imgur.com/a/lYAUEOf
https://imgur.com/a/FBzFX1j

This 3A is pre-rotating. Is this GOE +5?

These axels are not pre-rotated. In fact it would be a huge challenge to find footage of completed double axels that don't have the take-off foot turning to around 45 degrees on launch (and tbh I think that it'd be more camera angle than a truly "clean" edge in those cases.) This is how proper axel vaulting edges work. Some skaters skid the take-off edge more than others. But the launching foot rotates a quarter turn or so while the free leg and body continue on a sraight path up into the air. This is textbook technique. If you yourself have performed axels it may not *feel* like this is what is happening, but if you look at both your tracing and a slow motion video of your jump this is indeed how the mechanics work.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

These axels are not pre-rotated. In fact it would be a huge challenge to find footage of completed double axels that don't have the take-off foot turning to around 45 degrees on launch (and tbh I think that it'd be more camera angle than a truly "clean" edge in those cases.) This is how proper axel vaulting edges work. Some skaters skid the take-off edge more than others. But the launching foot rotates a quarter turn or so while the free leg and body continue on a sraight path up into the air. This is textbook technique. If you yourself have performed axels it may not *feel* like this is what is happening, but if you look at both your tracing and a slow motion video of your jump this is indeed how the mechanics work.

There is no rule that it is good that rotation can be reduced with Axel jump.
At the same time it is not possible to move the fact that it is far from the ice after pre-rotation.
The same is done not only for edge jump but also for 4T.

 

[BittyBug]

There is no rule that it is good that rotation can be reduced with Axel jump.
At the same time it is not possible to move the fact that it is far from the ice after pre-rotation.

I am going to assume that you have never skated because otherwise you would know that edge jumps have to make a quarter turn on the ice for take off. That is mechanically how they work. True for loop / Ritterberger, true for Salchow and true for Axel. You grind the edge into the ice to create the lift for take off. And since it's an edge, it's on a curve and therefore you have to have a quarter turn on the ice.

I'm sure someone else can explain it better technically, but to me you appear to be a troll who has it out for Hanyu. Why I don't know, but you are barking up the wrong tree. There is a reason the man is 2-time OLY champion, and his technique on the axel is textbook perfect.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

It is pre-rotating with full blades.
FS　4T
https://imgur.com/a/Wlr95KI
https://imgur.com/a/OUJqsAj
https://imgur.com/a/JLa4Eu0

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_MenSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf

Many of the judges are giving three points of full marks.
If this is okay, you should do the same for all competitors.
I think that there are quite a few cases where the rotation is not enough for a jump that gave full marks on preconceptions.

https://imgur.com/a/rrsPQ6E
https://imgur.com/a/i3kpCej
https://imgur.com/a/VAed86Y　　landing
https://imgur.com/a/bvm7Ner
https://imgur.com/a/fjD7Fux

If Miyahara did landing like this, it will be UR as it is subjected to 'review'.
Some competitors got full marks for jumps that would give minus GOE for other competitors.

 

[Meoima]

It is pre-rotating with full blades.
FS 4T
https://imgur.com/a/Wlr95KI
https://imgur.com/a/OUJqsAj
https://imgur.com/a/JLa4Eu0

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_MenSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf

Many of the judges are giving three points of full marks.
If this is okay, you should do the same for all competitors.
I think that there are quite a few cases where the rotation is not enough for a jump that gave full marks on preconceptions.

Because you do not know what is a toe loop is?
Here is a good video demonstrating the close up of 4T with HD quality of the takeoff: https://youtu.be/JJ0dPX6ppwY

Thank me later.

If Miyahara did landing like this, it will be UR as it is subjected to 'review'.
Some competitors got full marks for jumps that would give minus GOE for other competitors.

As far as I remember, Satoko Miyahara got NO UR call at the individual Olympic 2018. XD

 

[sleepingsleeping]

TATSUKI MACHIDA was asked about Tomoko Miyahara who was taken UR at Team Event Women's Short Program (SP) on 11th, "I carefully confirmed all the competitor's performances with slow motion, as a result of Miyahara's jump It is nothing inferior to anything. "
I also did the same work as Machida. If you check with slow motion, you can see that there are many jumps in which the rotation is like UR in the competitor 's jump that can not be easily reviewed . Injustice arises due to the preconceived judgment and "review system".

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/SEG011OF.HTM
Technical Specialist CHUNG Jae-Eun

She is a Korean. I was surprised that the CHOI Dabin jump was not reviewed when I was watching TV. After that, I confirmed the jump of other famous competitor by slow motion. "There are many jumps close to UR while not being reviewed." That is the conclusion. I feel that it is a competition that can be operated with the intention and preference of a judge. The problem grows as the width of GOE increases. ISU should stop making judges and people preconceived.

 

[bladesofgorey]

oh great. The truthers have arrived to FSU.

 

[Aussie Willy]

TATSUKI MACHIDA was asked about Tomoko Miyahara who was taken UR at Team Event Women's Short Program (SP) on 11th, "I carefully confirmed all the competitor's performances with slow motion, as a result of Miyahara's jump It is nothing inferior to anything. "
I also did the same work as Machida. If you check with slow motion, you can see that there are many jumps in which the rotation is like UR in the competitor 's jump that can not be easily reviewed . Injustice arises due to the preconceived judgment and "review system".

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/SEG011OF.HTM
Technical Specialist CHUNG Jae-Eun

She is a Korean. I was surprised that the CHOI Dabin jump was not reviewed when I was watching TV. After that, I confirmed the jump of other famous competitor by slow motion. "There are many jumps close to UR while not being reviewed." That is the conclusion. I feel that it is a competition that can be operated with the intention and preference of a judge. The problem grows as the width of GOE increases. ISU should stop making judges and people preconceived.

Funny I was doing data on a panel with Jae-Eun this year at a Novice event. She was a very good caller.

As others have said most jumps have a degree of pre-rotation. The only time a jump will get call under on a take off is if they are clearly turned on the take off which you will see in lower levels and even adult events. You will very rarely see it in junior and senior.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I am going to assume that you have never skated because otherwise you would know that edge jumps have to make a quarter turn on the ice for take off. That is mechanically how they work. True for loop / Ritterberger, true for Salchow and true for Axel. You grind the edge into the ice to create the lift for take off. And since it's an edge, it's on a curve and therefore you have to have a quarter turn on the ice.

I'm sure someone else can explain it better technically, but to me you appear to be a troll who has it out for Hanyu. Why I don't know, but you are barking up the wrong tree. There is a reason the man is 2-time OLY champion, and his technique on the axel is textbook perfect.

I think you are spot on with how you have explained it. You get a gold star.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

Funny I was doing data on a panel with Jae-Eun this year at a Novice event. She was a very good caller.

As others have said most jumps have a degree of pre-rotation. The only time a jump will get call under on a take off is if they are clearly turned on the take off which you will see in lower levels and even adult events. You will very rarely see it in junior and senior.

What I am talking about is what kind of judgment Korean technical specialists made in the team event of Olympic Games. Korea and Japan competed for ranking. The same is true for China's judge issue. For judges, it is important that their team win in the Olympics. I think that Japanese judges wanted to win YUZURU too. So, the only judges who ranked top other than Fernandez in total GOE were Japan and China.

Total　GOE　TOP
J1　Kazakhstan　 FERNANDEZ Javier
J2　USA　　　　　FERNANDEZ Javier
J3　Uzbekist 　FERNANDEZ Javier
J4　Japan　　　　　HANYU Yuzuru
J5　Israel　　　　FERNANDEZ Javier
J6　RUSSIA　　　FERNANDEZ Javier
J7　China　　　　　　Boyang JIN
J8　Czech Republic　　FERNANDEZ Javier
J9　Latvia　　　　　FERNANDEZ Javier

 

[Aussie Willy]

What I am talking about is what kind of judgment Korean technical specialists made in the team event of Olympic Games. Korea and Japan competed for ranking. The same is true for China's judge issue. For judges, it is important that their team win in the Olympics. I think that Japanese judges wanted to win YUZURU too. So, the only judges who ranked top other than Fernandez in total GOE were Japan and China.

Total　GOE　TOP
J1　Kazakhstan　 FERNANDEZ Javier
J2　USA　　　　　FERNANDEZ Javier
J3　Uzbekist 　FERNANDEZ Javier
J4　Japan　　　　　HANYU Yuzuru
J5　Israel　　　　FERNANDEZ Javier
J6　RUSSIA　　　FERNANDEZ Javier
J7　China　　　　　　Boyang JIN
J8　Czech Republic　　FERNANDEZ Javier
J9　Latvia　　　　　FERNANDEZ Javier

Sorry you are not consistent. First you single out a TS and then you are commenting on judging.

However there are 3 panel members and any decision about elements has to be decided by majority. So I am not sure how you can target a single member of the tech panel as influencing the result.

ETA: Funny I also know the TC that was on the panel with Jae-Eun and have worked with them many times over the years as well. If you are going to try and point out bias, you need to do a better job than that.

 

[SamuraiK]

So much troll feeding, stop it guys.

 

[Aussie Willy]

So much troll feeding, stop it guys.

Who are you telling to stop it? The trolls or everyone else?