U.S. Men 2024-25 news & updates

[misskarne]

Was Jason Brown’s exhibition program on a full size rink? Sometimes the smaller rinks make it harder to do triple axles or triple triple combos.

oooh, hush! Don't you know we're supposed to just mindlessly hate on Jason! We're not supposed to bring facts into the conversation.

Facts like Jason never doing combos in show/exhibition programs and rarely if ever doing any kind of Axels...so why this is being taken as gospel that he doesn't have his jumps is a total mystery.

I bet he didn't do his proper program spins either but you're not hearing anything about those.

 

[MacMadame]

I bet he didn't do his proper program spins either but you're not hearing anything about those.

I bet he did. He did a run-through of his SP. If he didn't do the jumps and didn't do the spins, that's not a run-through of his SP. He did an exhibition program to the same music.

 

[misskarne]

I bet he did. He did a run-through of his SP. If he didn't do the jumps and didn't do the spins, that's not a run-through of his SP. He did an exhibition program to the same music.

Since when has performing your SP as an exhibition program ever been considered a "run through"? It's not. It's not even that unusual for a skater to do a current program with a few tweaked jumps.

Why are we suddenly accepting as gospel that just because Jason didn't do certain jumps in a show program at a charity event, he doesn't have them?

 

[Karen-W]

Since when has performing your SP as an exhibition program ever been considered a "run through"? It's not. It's not even that unusual for a skater to do a current program with a few tweaked jumps.

Why are we suddenly accepting as gospel that just because Jason didn't do certain jumps in a show program at a charity event, he doesn't have them?

Because he hasn't demonstrated strong, consistent mastery of those element tsince last March????

 

[misskarne]

Because he hasn't demonstrated strong, consistent mastery of those element tsince last March????

And? Why are you expecting that he should come out and do a 3A and 3Lz-3T at a charity show? When he never has before?

 

[tony]

The thing is that Jason could do a 3A<< with a fall and a 3Lz+3T< and still score nearly 80 points in the short program based on the strength of all non-jump elements usually being a good +3 or +4 GOE and the PCS. And that's pretty dire situation in my hypothetical giving him << and the fall on the Axel. If he does a clean 2A as a substitute, he could even be pushing 85 points even with combo rotation issues. No combo issues and a 2A? He's in the high 80s at worst. And high 80s is most likely a top 10 short program placement, quite possibly even fighting for final free skate group status.

None of us know what his jump status currently is, but it doesn't really matter when the above is the reality of how the scoring system works to reward all of his strengths. Lack of a 3A isn't going to push him out of the free skate, which (qualifying) is a big question mark for some of the other options we have right now.

That said, I wouldn't mind if Jimmy Ma somehow gets into Worlds as that third spot, either.

 

[Allskate]

I don't really care about Jason's exhibition. I assume that USFS is going to require him to show them before Worlds that he can do a decent short program that will make them confident he will qualify for the long program. Or, he will just withdraw. I don't think he has any desire to go to Worlds and deliver a terrible performance, and I don't think that's what USFS is looking for either.

Yes, he did. A clean skate to the best of his abilities.

I would be very happy for Jimmy if he got to go to Worlds, but I also would be very nervous. I don't think he or anyone else is an obvious choice for the third spot. Jimmy placed well in the short program at 4CC, but that quad landing was not a great one, he doesn't have Worlds experience, and he is not a consistent skater. I hope that, whoever the third guy ends up being, they don't even attempt a quad in the short at Worlds. Too much risk of an underrotation and fall or even worse - a pop with zero points and possibly not making the long. Whoever gets sent as the third guy should be sent with the hope that the U.S. earns three spots and that there are three guys next season who clearly deserve to be on the Olympic team.

 

[tony]

I don't really care about Jason's exhibition. I assume that USFS is going to require him to show them before Worlds that he can do a decent short program that will make them confident he will qualify for the long program. Or, he will just withdraw. I don't think he has any desire to go to Worlds and deliver a terrible performance, and I don't think that's what USFS is looking for either.

As I just posted above, it really doesn't matter if his jumps are in top status or anywhere near it. He has the strength in all other areas. Unless he's lost all of his triples altogether, there's not a massive risk in sending him IMO and not a big risk in the qualification for the LP talks.

I would be very happy for Jimmy if he got to go to Worlds, but I also would be very nervous. I don't think he or anyone else is an obvious choice for the third spot. Jimmy placed well in the short program at 4CC, but that quad landing was not a great one, he doesn't have Worlds experience, and he is not a consistent skater. I hope that, whoever the third guy ends up being, they don't even attempt a quad in the short at Worlds. Too much risk of a fall or even worse - a pop with zero points and possibly not making the long. Whoever gets sent as the third guy should be sent with the hope that the U.S. earns three spots and that there are three guys next season who clearly deserve to be on the Olympic team.

It's not going to matter what the third guy does if (presumably) Ilia and Andrew can't finish with 13 points or less. The third spot is not going to be lost on what the third man does. The only thing that could happen is that the third spot has to be earned via the competition in China in the fall rather than outright at Worlds-- but again, it first and foremost comes down to what the top-two placing US skaters do.

 

[Rukia]

i love that half this thread is just people arguing about jason brown what a delight

anyway congrats to Jimmy for having a great skate under difficult circumstances. I really really hope he can have a good skate in the free too.

 

[cailuj365]

Sorry, I must be missing something, but why does it matter if the third skater does well in the SP and qualifies for the FS or not? All that matters are the placement of the top 2 equaling 13 or less, correct? Bratti & Somerville did not qualify for the FD last year, but the top 2 US ice dance teams' total placement was 8 (1+7), so the US still kept their third spot in ice dance this year.

I see a lot of comments saying how the US men do not "deserve" the third spot if the third skater skates so poorly, but to me, that's not accurate. The US is entitled to showcase a third skater if the top 2 skaters are that good. So what if the third skater doesn't skate well? It's a bonus spot, and it's the opportunity and experience for them. Now, if the 2nd skater doesn't skate that well, and the total placement of the top 2 is 14 or more, then sure, the US men do not "deserve" to send a third skater. To me, the pressure is more on the top 2 (Ilia and Andrew) to maintain their total placements of 13 or less.

 

[Debbie S]

For Olys qualifying, if a country has 3 entries in a discipline at Worlds and only 2 qualify for the FS, even if the top 2 placements total 13 or less, a third skater (not either of the 2 who earned the spots) needs to compete in the Oly qualifying comp and place in the top 6 (i think) to confirm the 3rd Oly spot. All 3 U.S. men qualifying for the FS makes things easier.

In 2021, Vincent had to compete at Nebelhorn to confirm the 3rd spot, since he didn't qualify for the FS at Worlds. (The U.S. didn't have to send Vincent but chose him as he was deemed the top skater of those not named Nathan or Jason.)

 

[kwanfan1818]

Sorry, I must be missing something, but why does it matter if the third skater does well in the SP and qualifies for the FS or not? All that matters are the placement of the top 2 equaling 13 or less, correct? Bratti & Somerville did not qualify for the FD last year, but the top 2 US ice dance teams' total placement was 8 (1+7), so the US still kept their third spot in ice dance this year.

For Worlds 2026, it doesn't matter.

For the Olympics, the rules are that a member is only guaranteed multiple spots for the number of skaters/teams that make the Free. If they earned more spots for Worlds, they can try to gain one more spot at the Olympic qualifier.

Example 1: Top 2 US Men place 13 or lower. The only way they can do this is if both make the FS.
Scenario A: US #3 makes the FS. The US gets 3 spots for the Olympics and 3 spots for Worlds 2026
Scenario B: US #3 misses the FS. The US gets 2 spots for the Olympics and a chance to earn a 3rd in Beijing, and 3 spots for Worlds 2026 outright.

Example 2: Top 2 US Men place >13 and <=28. US #3's placement is irrelevant.
Scenario A: US 1 & 2 make the FS. US gets 2 spots for the Olympics and 2 for Worlds 2026.
Scenario B: US 1 makes the FS, and US 2 does not. US gets 1 spot for the Olympics and a chance to earn a 2nd in Beijing, and 2 spots for Worlds 2026 outright.

 

[tony]

For Olys qualifying, if a country has 3 entries in a discipline at Worlds and only 2 qualify for the FS, even if the top 2 placements total 13 or less, a third skater (not either of the 2 who earned the spots) needs to compete in the Oly qualifying comp and place in the top 6 (i think) to confirm the 3rd Oly spot. All 3 U.S. men qualifying for the FS makes things easier.

A minimum of 6 more spots (in mens and womens fields), but potentially more depending on countries that may lose a spot at Worlds. This happened in 2021 with China- two entries there, placements were only good enough to earn one entry for the Olympics even though both qualified to the free skate. So 7 spots were up for grabs at Nebelhorn 2021.

 

[Allskate]

As I just posted above, it really doesn't matter if his jumps are in top status or anywhere near it

I didn't say his jumps have to be "in top status or anywhere near it." I said that he will have to show USFS before Worlds that he can do a decent short program that will make them confident he will qualify for the long program. That doesn't take a lot for him, but I think it's something that USFS will expect him to do. People are acting as if he has to publicly prove to skating fans at an exhibition that he won't just go to Worlds and do a short program that excludes an axel and triple combo. I think that's kind of silly. (I also don't think that the decision is going to be based on comparing Jason to one program of Jimmy's. That's not how these decisions are made, even if people think that's how it should work.)

Putting all of that aside, I don't know why anyone thinks that Jason really wants to go to Worlds and do programs there are terrible compared to his other performances at Worlds.

 

[zigzig]

Would LOVE for Jimmy to go. Hope he does well tomorrow.

The Brownflation is real and obscene though so like another poster said, he doesn't have to do much to get a score that most guys would have to get to the moon and back for.

 

[tony]

I didn't say his jumps have to be "in top status or anywhere near it." I said that he will have to show USFS before Worlds that he can do a decent short program that will make them confident he will qualify for the long program. That doesn't take a lot for him, but I think it's something that USFS will expect him to do. People are acting as if he has to publicly prove to skating fans at an exhibition that he won't just go to Worlds and do a short program that excludes an axel and triple combo. I think that's kind of silly. (I also don't think that the decision is going to be based on comparing Jason to one program of Jimmy's. That's not how these decisions are made, even if people think that's how it should work.)

Putting all of that aside, I don't know why anyone thinks that Jason really wants to go to Worlds and do programs there are terrible compared to his other performances at Worlds.

And as I highlighted in the post above yours, he can qualify to the free skate with a 3A<< and 3Lz+3T< for example. Or he can just do a double Axel and be fine and score more than enough. But it won't stop people from being pissy that he's at Worlds with no triple Axel, I'm sure.

The only way USFS can say he's not 'competition ready' is if the 3F and 3Lz are also completely gone. I'm sure they have numbers people that can draw the same conclusion I came to within 60 seconds of thinking about it. For lack of a better phrase, the 3A doesn't mean shit in a Jason Brown, every non-jump element and PCS score is rightfully scored strong, world.

 

[Allskate]

And as I highlighted in the post above yours, he can qualify to the free skate with a 3A<< and 3Lz+3T< for example.

I'm really baffled as to why you are arguing with me. I wasn't responding to your post or disagreeing with you, and nothing I have said contradicts what you have said. But, I guess that won't stop you from being pissy with me.

 

[cailuj365]

For Olys qualifying, if a country has 3 entries in a discipline at Worlds and only 2 qualify for the FS, even if the top 2 placements total 13 or less, a third skater (not either of the 2 who earned the spots) needs to compete in the Oly qualifying comp and place in the top 6 (i think) to confirm the 3rd Oly spot. All 3 U.S. men qualifying for the FS makes things easier.

In 2021, Vincent had to compete at Nebelhorn to confirm the 3rd spot, since he didn't qualify for the FS at Worlds. (The U.S. didn't have to send Vincent but chose him as he was deemed the top skater of those not named Nathan or Jason.)

Thank you. So it's easier, but it's not critical.

Carry on!

 

[tony]

I'm really baffled as to why you are arguing with me. I wasn't responding to your post or disagreeing with you, and nothing I have said contradicts what you have said. But, I guess that won't stop you from being pissy with me.

At no point did I argue with you or mention that I was pissy with you. I did say people would be pissy, like they have the last.. I don't know.. 8 years? or so when it comes to Jason and his technical abilities and his GOE/PCS scores.

I'm continuing to point out the bare minimum that Jason needs to do to be way up there in the standings after the short program. He could even probably do a 3T+2T, 2A, and 3F and easily qualify with 80+ points, for that matter. [FWIW, Aymoz just did a 3T+3T, 3A, and 3Lz with a rough landing that got 88+ points]

 

[MacMadame]

The Brownflation is real and obscene though so like another poster said, he doesn't have to do much to get a score that most guys would have to get to the moon and back for.

For how much longer?

Yes, Jason's SPs scored higher than Ma's this Fall. And then he had equipment issues (per his own words), could possibly be injured (rumors? conjecture?), and hasn't been able to train as he would like (his own words again). To assume he will do as well as he did in the Fall, is not something I'd put money on.

And remember back then people were saying that the 3X was gone and a few other jumps were as well. I said it was premature to say that as he had time to get them back if he trained properly. Which, again by his own words, he wasn't able to.

 

[Trillian]

The Brownflation is real and obscene though

Eh, it’s really not. He’s earning points on PCS and GOEs that other guys don’t earn because the quality of his non-jump elements, skating skills, etc. are consistently high even when he has jump errors. There are a handful of other guys in the world in the same league who can outjump him (at least sometimes), but most of the other men are scoring lower because they leave a lot of points on the table that he has - out of necessity - learned to maximize. I know it baffles people that Jason scores so well with his jump content, but he and his team have been focused for his entire senior career on finding every possible point available to him without the quads. That’s what’s happening there.

 

[Sarah]

Camden is still listed (in the original document/release) as first alternate. So, if Jason isn’t ready, would the spot not go to Camden? Who showed up at 4CCs with back issues?

I am just asking questions here. Does USFS skip alternates unless they decline? Would Camden require monitoring? I love Jimmy but I don’t necessarily see how he’s suddenly in the discussion…

Having said all of this, I don’t really care who is sent. I like Jason, Jimmy, AND Camden.

 

[Karen-W]

Camden is still listed (in the original document/release) as first alternate. So, if Jason isn’t ready, would the spot not go to Camden? Who showed up at 4CCs with back issues?

I am just asking questions here. Does USFS skip alternates unless they decline? Would Camden require monitoring? I love Jimmy but I don’t necessarily see how he’s suddenly in the discussion…

Having said all of this, I don’t really care who is sent. I like Jason, Jimmy, AND Camden.

So, here is the Worlds Selection document - https://www.usfigureskating.org/sit...iles/2025 World Team Selection Procedures.pdf

Section 3 outlines the Removal of Athletes and Section 4 is the Substitution of Athletes.

Section 3.1.8 goes through the Injury/Illness evaluation which applies to Jason at this point since he has been selected. Section 4 states only that the substitutes will be ranked, so I presume if Jason is not cleared to compete, then Camden would move up to the spot and would also be subject to the Injury/Illness evaluation since he's openly stated he's dealing with a back injury. At that point, if he is removed, then Max would move up to the spot unless he has already withdrawn his name from consideration (which seems quite likely). If Max has already withdrawn himself as a substitute, then Jimmy would be next up.

Specifically, with regard to the Injury/Illness removal section - the Medical Evaluation Group makes their recommendation to the Int'l Committee & the Int'l Committee then takes that recommendation to the appropriate Discipline Group for a vote.

 

[Rukia]

Eh, it’s really not. He’s earning points on PCS and GOEs that other guys don’t earn because the quality of his non-jump elements, skating skills, etc. are consistently high even when he has jump errors. There are a handful of other guys in the world in the same league who can outjump him (at least sometimes), but most of the other men are scoring lower because they leave a lot of points on the table that he has - out of necessity - learned to maximize. I know it baffles people that Jason scores so well with his jump content, but he and his team have been focused for his entire senior career on finding every possible point available to him without the quads. That’s what’s happening there.

lol i do not want to wade into this but i also can't let this pass. What Jason is performing this season isn't what he's done in the past. It's very normal and natural for this to happen. I'm not saying I think he should be dumped, but I do think he gets reputation points that aren't necessarily accurate to what he actually did. He's not the only one though lol like we all know pcs is a game. I just think people keep thinking of Jason a few seasons ago and not currently. I felt this happened a lot with Hanyu as well in the later years of his career. His skating looked weaker, his choreography and transitions got easier. It just is what it is.

 

[tony]

lol i do not want to wade into this but i also can't let this pass. What Jason is performing this season isn't what he's done in the past. It's very normal and natural for this to happen. I'm not saying I think he should be dumped, but I do think he gets reputation points that aren't necessarily accurate to what he actually did. He's not the only one though lol like we all know pcs is a game. I just think people keep thinking of Jason a few seasons ago and not currently. I felt this happened a lot with Hanyu as well in the later years of his career. His skating looked weaker, his choreography and transitions got easier. It just is what it is.

I'm not so sure I can agree here. I think his free skate is the best-choreographed and best catered to showing off his glorious skating quality that he's had in a long time. Certainly he's had some clunker program choices- whether it be the music, the concept, the choreography not really matching what the music is doing, etc. The only thing that has been steadily getting worse is the prep time on the triple Axel, which now goes on for literally 10 seconds.

I think Jason at his best absolutely deserves his 9+ PCS, and even with an off day with jump mistakes, it's not as if the performance suddenly gets thrown away or the choreography is taken out.

And if a certain other American skater constantly is hovering around that 9.00 mark..... Jason especially is deserving

 

[Rukia]

I'm not so sure I can agree here. I think his free skate is the best-choreographed and best catered to showing off his glorious skating quality that he's had in a long time. Certainly he's had some clunker program choices- whether it be the music, the concept, the choreography not really matching what the music is doing, etc. The only thing that has been steadily getting worse is the prep time on the triple Axel, which now goes on for literally 10 seconds.

I think Jason at his best absolutely deserves his 9+ PCS, and even with an off day with jump mistakes, it's not as if the performance suddenly gets thrown away or the choreography is taken out.

And if a certain other American skater constantly is hovering around that 9.00 mark..... Jason especially is deserving

I'm not trying to take away from his performance quality, but I think his glide is noticiably choppier and his posture has gotten worse. I barely remember his free from this season honestly lol but i kind of hate his short. Although I do agree with your point about Jason's pcs relative to Ilia's hahaha. I still think Jason should score well, but I don't think he should have as much of a cushion as he has in the past.

anyway it's fine this is the most i've wanted to ever think about jason brown tbh i shan't do it anymore today

 

[On My Own]

lol i do not want to wade into this but i also can't let this pass. What Jason is performing this season isn't what he's done in the past. It's very normal and natural for this to happen. I'm not saying I think he should be dumped, but I do think he gets reputation points that aren't necessarily accurate to what he actually did. He's not the only one though lol like we all know pcs is a game. I just think people keep thinking of Jason a few seasons ago and not currently. I felt this happened a lot with Hanyu as well in the later years of his career. His skating looked weaker, his choreography and transitions got easier. It just is what it is.

I think with Hanyu it was because of the time limit reduction, that nobody really adjusted to. So with him, I thought he was weaker because he still tried to do 4 quads (including 4A sometimes) in those 4 minutes. And FWIW I thought everyone was looking worse after COVID season.

Decline in Jason's skating reads differently to me, because he just plain hasn't been competing anymore, so the constant attention to being in competitive form is no longer there.

I think his glide is noticiably choppier and his posture has gotten worse.

Yes. And I never thought those aspects of his were top notch within the field.

And about reputation points, there's the matter of his Lutz edge. Anyway, I think people shouldn't make an 'age' argument for him, because I think older athletes are valuable, but other arguments like yours can be made.

 

[Private Citizen]

The only thing that has been steadily getting worse is the prep time on the triple Axel, which now goes on for literally 10 seconds.

I think Jason at his best absolutely deserves his 9+ PCS, and even with an off day with jump mistakes, it's not as if the performance suddenly gets thrown away or the choreography is taken out.

To me, your first statement should disqualify your second. Skating around for 45 seconds (20% of the program) doing nothing except stalking triple axels should reduce his PCS. I actually think Malinin deserves higher PCS at this point.

 

[On My Own]

I actually think Malinin deserves higher PCS at this point.

I think Malinin has the most interesting material of the 'top men' this season (depending on whether or not you include Aymoz in that group I guess), which is... saying something. And I never thought he was a bad performer, even if not refined in the way some are, so the gap there shouldn't be large.

I do think he deserves a lower skating skill component than many though.

 

[kwanfan1818]

To me it looks like Brown is in protection mode. I'm not sure he can, physically, train for a full-season. From his social media, he has a jam-packed performance schedule, mostly in Japan. It was a significant risk to continue to skate competitively, when his results could impact his invites going forward, when his prime earning years are now. It's not like back when, if you are a Friend of Scott, you could be a life-timer on a long, lucrative Stars on Ice tour each year, and wear lizardy shirts and flash a smile while skating circles a la Steven Cousins.