U.S. Men 2024-25 news & updates

[tony]

To me, your first statement should disqualify your second. Skating around for 45 seconds (20% of the program) doing nothing except stalking triple axels should reduce his PCS. I actually think Malinin deserves higher PCS at this point.

How do you get 45 seconds out of that math? I mean really. There aren’t 4 triple Axel attempts in any program.

FWIW, Amber Glenn does the same thing.

As far as skating SKILLS or choreography, I just don’t get how anyone can think Malinin is stronger. His free skates continue to be a bunch of nothing.

 

[Karen-W]

A lot can be forgiven when a skater has a fairly reliable 3A...

 

[tony]

A lot can be forgiven when a skater has a fairly reliable 3A...

And where in the rules does it say that should be the case? I must have missed it.

When it was the Russians getting ‘forgiven’ because of their big jumps, I think you were probably the head cheerleader of making sure everyone knew it was nonsense.

 

[Vagabond]

To me, your first statement should disqualify your second. Skating around for 45 seconds (20% of the program) doing nothing except stalking triple axels should reduce his PCS. I actually think Malinin deserves higher PCS at this point.

Only two triple axels at most are allowed in one Free Skate. (Thank you, Elaine Zayak.)
2 x 10 seconds is 20 seconds.
4 minutes x 60 seconds per minute is 240.
20 ÷ 240= 0.8333 (8.3333%).

 

[On My Own]

Only two triple axels at most are allowed in one Free Skate. (Thank you, Elaine Zayak.)
2 x 10 seconds is 20 seconds.
4 minutes x 60 seconds per minute is 240.
20 ÷ 240= 0.8333 (8.3333%).

I thought it was obvious that he's talking about the first part of the program here:

Which isn't just "stalking triple axels" as he put it, but certainly isn't choreographically rich, and it should be obvious that it's jump prep happening there.

I barely remember his free from this season honestly

It's a rehash of his Piano (which was lovely), but toned down on every regard IMO.

I did like that 'difficult change of position' feature in the first spin, the spiral during the steps, and the fact that a jump is the second to last element in the program.

 

[Karen-W]

And where in the rules does it say that should be the case? I must have missed it.

When it was the Russians getting ‘forgiven’ because of their big jumps, I think you were probably the head cheerleader of making sure everyone knew it was nonsense.

There's a huge difference between the Russian girls tiny, pre-rotated quads and a beautiful 3A or good quads that cover a lot of ice with good technique. Don't be disingenuous by comparing Amber's 3A to Russian/Eteri-bot "quads".

Whether you like it or not (and clearly you don't), the judges seem quite willing to overlook jump stalking when the jump is successful and the stalking is the only issue with an otherwise beautiful jump.

 

[tony]

There's a huge difference between the Russian girls tiny, pre-rotated quads and a beautiful 3A or good quads that cover a lot of ice with good technique. Don't be disingenuous by comparing Amber's 3A to Russian/Eteri-bot "quads".

Whether you like it or not (and clearly you don't), the judges seem quite willing to overlook jump stalking when the jump is successful and the stalking is the only issue with an otherwise beautiful jump.

Yes, because Tuktamysheva, Trusova, and Valieva all had tiny jumps. Don't tell me what I'm being disingenuous about when constantly the narrative switches about what is fine and what is just end-of-the-world unacceptable. So what exactly are you talking about being 'forgiven' otherwise? That a program can be empty but because the big jump is landed, it's alright?

I'm saying if it's the end of the world that Jason spends 10 seconds on 3A prep, then why isn't the end of the world in PCS regards for other skaters? And to be fair, it's my mistake and for him it's more like 5-6 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RehS02YAH4w&t=61s

Junhwan Cha is another serial offender of stopping all choreography in sight, slowing way down into his 3A, and he does two of them back to back in the free skate. It doesn't mean the program suddenly has no choreography or skating skills otherwise.

 

[Private Citizen]

How do you get 45 seconds out of that math? I mean really. There aren’t 4 triple Axel attempts in any program.

Jason BROWN (USA) | Men Free Skating | Skate Canada International 2024 | #GPFigure

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From 0:45 to 1:30 in this video, he is doing nothing except for setting up for triple axels.

It's 20% of the program. For this 20% of the program, his components should be a maximum 6... and that'd be generous. I think composition should be a 2 or 3.

By my math, that should cap his components at 8.25. Add in his typical falls, etc., and I think mid to high 7s is appropriate at this point.

 

[On My Own]

From 0:45 to 1:30 in this video, he is doing nothing except for setting up for triple axels.

That's false, but I do agree it's scant choreographically beginning from the stroking he starts at 51 seconds in.

By my math, that should cap his components at 8.25. Add in his typical falls, etc., and I think mid to high 7s is appropriate at this point.

For composition? Maybe not quite 7s, but I'd agree on low 8s for that Skate Canada performance.

For skating skills/performance? Mid-high 8s seem fine. He still shows attention to detail, projects decently, and skates with good speed and glide, with good edges... why would he deserve 7s on skating skill?

 

[tony]

Jason BROWN (USA) | Men Free Skating | Skate Canada International 2024 | #GPFigure

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From 0:45 to 1:30 in this video, he is doing nothing except for setting up for triple axels.

It's 20% of the program. For this 20% of the program, his components should be a maximum 6... and that'd be generous. I think composition should be a 2 or 3.

By my math, that should cap his components at 8.25. Add in his typical falls, etc., and I think mid to high 7s is appropriate at this point.

Your definition of 'setting up for jumps' is pretty wild. Getting around the ice surface in general is suddenly setting up for jumps. So we may as well call the first half of most senior programs solely "setting up for jumps", with no trace of edgework or 'choreography' to be found unless three-turns are suddenly complex movements. In your 'percentage of program' apply-low-PCS solution, I'd think most skaters would be at 0 for the time they are getting through jump elements. Literally.

The first 3A jump setup in this linked program is at 1:00. He jumps at 1:05.

I know the Brown annoyance is high, but wow.

 

[Trillian]

My gut feeling is that with Jason, the scoring impact of whatever deterioration has happened this season is going to be on his ceiling, not his floor. He’s not going to suddenly drop into the 7s on PCS because people are mad that he can’t land a triple axel, nor should he. He’ll continue to get high GOEs for his spins and footwork because he mostly earns them. That means that the low end of his scoring range is still going to be considerably higher than it is for a lot of other guys, which I’m sure is what USFS is banking on for Worlds.

But even in the absolute best-case scenario, if he shows up at Worlds and hits all of his jumps reasonably cleanly including the 3A, I don’t think he scores 94 points like he has the last few years. I’m not that worried about his ability to qualify for the FS (I think if he’s skating that badly, he’ll WD), but I also don’t expect him to sail into the final group even if he does skate well. That’s the advantage he really probably has lost at this point.

 

[Karen-W]

My gut feeling is that with Jason, the scoring impact of whatever deterioration has happened this season is going to be on his ceiling, not his floor. He’s not going to suddenly drop into the 7s on PCS because people are mad that he can’t land a triple axel, nor should he. He’ll continue to get high GOEs for his spins and footwork because he mostly earns them. That means that the low end of his scoring range is still going to be considerably higher than it is for a lot of other guys, which I’m sure is what USFS is banking on for Worlds.

But even in the absolute best-case scenario, if he shows up at Worlds and hits all of his jumps reasonably cleanly including the 3A, I don’t think he scores 94 points like he has the last few years. I’m not that worried about his ability to qualify for the FS (I think if he’s skating that badly, he’ll WD), but I also don’t expect him to sail into the final group even if he does skate well. That’s the advantage he really probably has lost at this point.

I think part of the question here is what does Jason want his last Worlds impression to be? Does he want it to be getting through to the FS in the 15-20 range? And then, if he does manage that, what sort of shape is he in for the FS? And how much fan goodwill is he willing to burn if he is NOT in shape to get through a FS much better than he was doing in the fall? His SB from NHK would put him 19th of the men going to Worlds.

What really bothers me about this is the way it seems that both he and the USFS aren't willing to let him retire (if the assertion of a certain Jason uber here is correct & he really didn't plan on competing after Beijing). It's no better than the CFSA not letting Boyang retire when he's clearly well past his prime, if those rumors are also true.

 

[tony]

I think part of the question here is what does Jason want his last Worlds impression to be? Does he want it to be getting through to the FS in the 15-20 range? And then, if he does manage that, what sort of shape is he in for the FS? And how much fan goodwill is he willing to burn if he is NOT in shape to get through a FS much better than he was doing in the fall? His SB from NHK would put him 19th of the men going to Worlds.

If he still wants to compete, does it really matter? He's never been on the podium at Worlds and he's not going to suddenly be a threat to do so this year, even if the Axel wasn't an issue in the fall. Satoko Miyahara, loved by all here, kept going even when the technical panels really started to come down hard on her lack of rotations, and she was 19th at her last Worlds even after being on the podium twice in the past.

Performances from the last many seasons get wiped off Youtube often anyways, and posters here on a figure skating-specific message board often talk about not ever rewatching anything and/or forgetting programs from one week to the next. His final impression and 'legacy' wouldn't be suddenly all forgotten by the skating world with a-- by his norm-- subpar skate. I mean, the people here who have obviously been annoyed by him for the last nearly 8 years would probably never forget his final placement from this Worlds, but that's that.

What really bothers me about this is the way it seems that both he and the USFS aren't willing to let him retire

Jason's 30 years old. If he wanted to hang up the skates completely or go into touring, he's not being held hostage by anyone to just go do it.

 

[kwanfan1818]

He said himself that he wasn't planning to skate after 2022, then re-considered and competed at 2023 US Nats, because his family and friends weren't allowed to be in Beijing, and he wanted them to be there for his last skate.

Whether you agree with his scores or not, he placed 2nd at 2023 Nationals, ~10.5 points behind Malinin, almost all of them from the SP -- Malinin beat him by only .31 in the FS -- and ~21.5 points behind ahead of bronze medalist Torgashev and ~27 points ahead of pewter medalist Naumov.

While I'm sure he expected some home-Fed lovefest at his farewell, I'm not sure he expected to get a Worlds invite. He placed 5th in Saitama, and Torgashev 21st. Malinin's bronze and his 5th secured three spots for US Men for Montreal, so not a bad choice, but I don't know if he had other plans for March.

I don't think much of this was planned. I can't blame him for having the competing flame getting re-ignited. The next echelon of US Men have gotten their share of GP and CS events, and even if they had weak outings at US Nats against Brown, they haven't made a case internationally for why USFS should pick them. I'm not sure that was expected, either. US Men aren't the only ones who go around Menning. Even Malinin does, but he has such a margin, he can play around with his programs and biff a couple of combinations at the end and still beat a field by 20 points.

I think he would have bowed out gracefully if there were Men behind him that whooshed past, like Malinin, but, until this year's Torgashev, that's been a no.

 

[PRlady]

Personally, I had a terror of being that obsolete old lady who didn’t know when to retire. And in my field, like skating, obsolescence is fatal. So I retired at least a couple years before I had originally planned.

Jason is not a Type A, ride or die personality from what I’ve seen. He genuinely loved to skate, loved the fans, loved to perform. I honestly believe he will not come to Worlds to be mediocre and that he knows what his skills are. Certainly other skaters seem to be grimly determined to get an Oly medal at the end of long careers, he’s not one of them.

 

[jlai]

Personally, I had a terror of being that obsolete old lady who didn’t know when to retire. And in my field, like skating, obsolescence is fatal. So I retired at least a couple years before I had originally planned.

Jason is not a Type A, ride or die personality from what I’ve seen. He genuinely loved to skate, loved the fans, loved to perform. I honestly believe he will not come to Worlds to be mediocre and that he knows what his skills are. Certainly other skaters seem to be grimly determined to get an Oly medal at the end of long careers, he’s not one of them.

Jason does have an Olympic medal from 2014.

 

[misskarne]

I think part of the question here is what does Jason want his last Worlds impression to be? Does he want it to be getting through to the FS in the 15-20 range? And then, if he does manage that, what sort of shape is he in for the FS? And how much fan goodwill is he willing to burn if he is NOT in shape to get through a FS much better than he was doing in the fall? His SB from NHK would put him 19th of the men going to Worlds.

There was another US man, not so long ago, whose last Worlds had him make it through to the FS in fifteenth.

He then saved the third spot for the US men in the free.

I seem to recall then, too, that there were people complaining that he was going, asserting he would lose the US men the third spot (even though that wasn't how it worked at the time), and that we didn't need him because the two young guns would get the job done.

If anything, it gave him more fan goodwill than he'd ever had in his whole career.

 

[Willin]

I feel like Jason's problem this year is that he hasn't really learned how to train as an older skater. He probably thought he could take a month off and do shows and be fine.

Unfortunately, when you get older you have to keep going to stay in the kind of shape you need. Given how good his technique is and the fact that he's no longer trying quads, I fully believe that if he trains properly he can skate just as well as he did four years ago. Deanna Stellato-Dudek is riding her good technique and smart training into her 40s. Meaghan Duhamel stayed fit a long time as well, and discussed how she trained differently. Nobunari Oda was FOURTH at JNats (a very deep field) at 37 because of how well he's kept up his fitness and good technique. Jason is fully capable of that.

The unfortunate truth is that Jason needs to learn to train harder and smarter if he wants to make the Olympic team. I love Jason so much, but I've been having serious reservations on how he's doing this. If he didn't want to keep going, sure, do whatever. But Jason, being a PCS and quality skater, needs to go out there and earn those quality and consistency points with the judges and needs to stay in a competitive mindset instead of a show mindset. Maybe just the Grand Prix (as many skaters do) or a couple Senior B's. Maybe some local comps. But something to keep him on track.

 

[MacMadame]

Eh, it’s really not. He’s earning points on PCS and GOEs that other guys don’t earn because the quality of his non-jump elements, skating skills, etc. are consistently high even when he has jump errors.

Except that quality has diminished. In particular, his messy outings this fall did not have nearly the performance quality of programs in the past.

If he still wants to compete, does it really matter? He's never been on the podium at Worlds and he's not going to suddenly be a threat to do so this year, even if the Axel wasn't an issue in the fall.

I wonder how much he wants to compete. He doesn't act like someone who loves to compete. He loads up on shows, does very few competitions, and shows up to those with a lot less preparation than normal (and it shows). He obviously loves to perform but I'm less sure about competing.

Satoko Miyahara, loved by all here,

No one is loved by all. It's FSU.

But also, I think you are focusing on the placements and not what people are complaining about.

There are plenty of beloved skaters who don't crack the Top 10 and some who don't always make the free skate. But they are not former Top 5 skaters. And there are also plenty of beloved skaters who get harsher treatment by the judges as time passes but the skating hasn't changed.

That is not his situation.

Though I think the reality of tarnishing his legacy is not as dire as @Karen-W thinks but also not as unlikely as you think. Somewhere in between. There are certainly posters here whose fandom has waned as he's stayed in even as his skating diminishes.

Jason's 30 years old. If he wanted to hang up the skates completely or go into touring, he's not being held hostage by anyone to just go do it.

People often do things they don't really want to especially when it comes to work. Especially if the paycheck is good enough.

Jason is not a Type A, ride or die personality from what I’ve seen. He genuinely loved to skate, loved the fans, loved to perform. I honestly believe he will not come to Worlds to be mediocre and that he knows what his skills are.

I hope so. I get the impression USFS is putting a lot of pressure on him to continue. They have done this in the past to other skaters. And other Feds have done it too. It's short-term thinking, IMO.

Certainly other skaters seem to be grimly determined to get an Oly medal at the end of long careers, he’s not one of them.

Now who could that be?

 

[tony]

There are plenty of beloved skaters who don't crack the Top 10 and some who don't always make the free skate. But they are not former Top 5 skaters. And there are also plenty of beloved skaters who get harsher treatment by the judges as time passes but the skating hasn't changed.

I am quite sure he has plenty of show and choreographic opportunities waiting to barge through the door once he is done competing completely, and I'm quite sure he doesn't give a shit what people on a message board or even social media for that matter think about his 'legacy' of staying in. His most well-known program was now 11 years ago, and he's been in the top 10 at Worlds every time he's gone.

He will do just fine in the sport with whatever he wants to contribute in the future, and others can write about his final Worlds placement being abysmal (if it even is) with every chance they want for years to come if that makes them feel good.

 

[Kateri]

There was another US man, not so long ago, whose last Worlds had him make it through to the FS in fifteenth.

He then saved the third spot for the US men in the free.

And that man... was Jesus Christ.

 

[ice coverage]

There was another US man, not so long ago, whose last Worlds had him make it through to the FS in fifteenth.

He then saved the third spot for the US men in the free. ...

If anything, it gave him more fan goodwill than he'd ever had in his whole career.

Yes, but I think the situation from the past was quite different from Jason's situation for 2025 Worlds.
The other U.S. man was third alternate for Worlds. He stepped up to compete on short notice after the first and second alternates declined, and then his contribution of eleventh overall turned out to be essential to saving three spots for U.S. men for the following year. All to his great credit.
In contrast, Jason was selected for 2025 Worlds without competing at Nats. For me, it is natural/inevitable that the assignment would place expectations on him.
Thus the conversation in this thread.

... He will do just fine in the sport with whatever he wants to contribute in the future ..

 

[layman]

The way I see it, the selection committee made the right call putting Jason (provisionally) on the World team. If he is healthy, he will do just fine (as he has countless times in the past). If he is not healthy, someone else will go. End of story. No more hand-wringing necessary.

 

[Karen-W]

Yeah, I think Jimmy's new SB, which puts him solidly in the 13-16 range at Worlds, if everyone matches their SB, should definitely be something for the USFS to chew on. Torgy's SB is only 1.6 points higher.

Do what you need to do, USFS, to put Jimmy on the Worlds Team!

 

[misskarne]

Is there any evidence that Jimmy can produce that relatively consistently?

 

[Karen-W]

Is there any evidence that Jimmy can produce that relatively consistently?

Well, of his 4 international assignments this season, he's outscored Jason's SB from NHK three times.

 

[zebobes]

It looks like no matter which US men are sent to Worlds with Ilia (Torgashev and Brown/Pulkinen/Ma), both of them will now end up sneaking in the third to last group at Worlds, partially thanks to Ma's bronze at 4CC, which not only raises his overall standings, it also helps to keep someone like Tsuboi back down, as if Tsuboi placed one place higher, he would have overtaken both Torgashev and Ma.

That being said, Tsuboi does have open slots to get the full point totals of an international competition, so if he really cared, he could still push one US man down into the 4th to last group. (Are there still competitions to earn points?) Also, if Estonia switched out their men (Aleksandr for Mihhail), that would also push one of the US skaters out of the group. To my knowledge, none of the other skaters could overtake the US men at this point.

 

[Karen-W]

It looks like no matter which US men are sent to Worlds with Ilia (Torgashev and Brown/Pulkinen/Ma), both of them will now end up sneaking in the third to last group at Worlds, partially thanks to Ma's bronze at 4CC, which not only raises his overall standings, it also helps to keep someone like Tsuboi back down, as if Tsuboi placed one place higher, he would have overtaken both Torgashev and Ma.

That being said, Tsuboi does have open slots to get the full point totals of an international competition, so if he really cared, he could still push one US man down into the 4th to last group. (Are there still competitions to earn points?) Also, if Estonia switched out their men (Aleksandr for Mihhail), that would also push one of the US skaters out of the group. To my knowledge, none of the other skaters could overtake the US men at this point.

I can't imagine Japan sending Tsuboi to any competitions between now and Worlds. And I can't imagine Estonia sending Aleksandr over Mihhail based on their season results so far.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don’t think Brown’s career would be ruined with a poor showing at Worlds, although any US 3 who missed the FS would be in the dog house. There is even more pressure on Torgashev, who is now expected to contribute to 13 points or less, with no expectation or “job” of US 3 other than to make the FS. Historically, Brown could be expected to have far more of an upside, enough to be a Top 10 placement whose placement didn’t have to count, which can’t be said of anyone else, although it would be wonderful if it happened.

I do worry that if he has a two-year streak of weak performances, with no championship rally, that it will impact both his earning potential — he might still get invites, but not get offered the same cash — and his longevity. A lot of what makes him appealing is a combination of flexibility and control, and training for shows is so very different from training for competitions, while living a show life, with travel baked in, isn’t for sissies either.

Right now, he’s doing a lot of both, which could be fulfilling and financially rewarding, but physically sounds to me like the worst of both worlds. Thinking of Stellato-Dudek, I remember Deschamps emphasizing that he knows how hard she had to work to keep up elite fitness. You hear it from older dancers who take 30-minutes showers in the morning to be able to move at all and who soak their legs in trash cans full of ice after performances. And they are hyper-focused on their sleep, nutrition, off-ice training in addition to training, which someone living in both worlds doesn’t have the luxury to do.

It’s his body and life, and he might be miserable if he had to do almost nothing for the next year but live like a training monk, only stepping out in the summer to practice his SP on Japanese tours, like the Japanese skaters do.

 

[zigzig]

THRILLED FOR JIMMY medalling. And happy that Camden pulled up 8 spots.