U.S. Men 2024-25 news & updates

[tony]

What is Brown’s skating order? A cleanish program plus a late skating order will help immensely

Anywhere from 25th to 27th out of 39. Fifth group out of seven; Torgashev will be earlier in the same group.

 

[BittyBug]

I posted upthread the same thing- Brown will make the free, and probably quite comfortably, even with a 3+2 and a 2A. If he gets the 3+3 and has troubles on or doubles the Axel, he's still looking at potentially ~85 points even with a "conservative" PCS scoring. 85.00 was good enough for 10th place last year, as a comparison.

This is a tragedy of the scoring system. Sorry, but novice level content should not be scoring 85+ in the senior men's SP, regardless of how great someone's spins and footwork are.

The jumps he does land typically score big on GOE.

Brown has a pretty egregious flutz, so his "lutz" should never be scoring big on GOE. That doesn't mean that it won't, but it shouldn't.

 

[tony]

This is a tragedy of the scoring system. Sorry, but novice level content should not be scoring 85+ in the senior men's SP, regardless of how great someone's spins and footwork are.

That's not a tragedy of the system, though. I don't get it. The system is (ideally) built to rewards strengths across all facets of skating, and the jumps do not mean everything. If this were in reverse and the Russians were all back making 95% of FSU's blood boil for their scoring, we would hear all about the big jumps being the one thing that somehow reward and boost everything else in one's skating and how that's not fair.

The top skaters who are well-rounded will score 100 or 105+. It's not as if Jason, with his 'novice' content, is on equal footing with possibly pushing ~85 points.

Brown has a pretty egregious flutz, so his "lutz" should never be scoring big on GOE. That doesn't mean that it won't, but it shouldn't.

I think we all know I'm the head cheerleader of calling jumps as they are performed. At worst he's probably getting a !, though. Well actually I'll see what the panels are and then decide

 

[MacMadame]

Sorry, but novice level content should not be scoring 85+ in the senior men's SP, regardless of how great someone's spins and footwork are.

I think your point might have more weight if you didn't exaggerate. It's more like Junior level content but even some of the first group skaters in Senior ISU comps have similar content. So I would say Senior OES content.

The system is (ideally) built to rewards strengths across all facets of skating, and the jumps do not mean everything

Agreed. The tragedy is not the system but the judging where GOEs and PCS are too high for what is put on the ice. IMO, anyway.


I agree with those that say Jason will continue through 2026 and may even get an Olympic berth over younger skaters who don't have his experience even if his competitive skating doesn't improve much over what we saw in the Fall. I just want to remember him from things like his Sinnerman program and not the mess we just saw on the GP circuit. If he keeps going, without getting the 3X back, without having issues on other jumps that are distracting enough to mar the program, then that isn't going to happen.

 

[Karen-W]

So, here's what we know about how Jason's SP has scored so far this season, per the protocols -

Shanghai Trophy - 3F clean, 3A< fall, 3Lz+3T clean - 87.02
SCI - 3F clean, 3A< fall, 3Lz+3T< - 79.03
NHK - 3F clean 3A<, 3Lz+3Tq fall - 77.08

My comments in the Shanghai Trophy thread at the time regarding the SP was that everything was good save the fall on the 3A. He's been having issues all season with the 3A.

FS protocols -
Shanghai Trophy - 3A<, 3F+2T clean, 3Lz clean, 3S clean, 3F+2A+2A clean, 2Lz clean - but would have been intended as a 3Lz, 3Lo< - 155.77
SCI - 3Aq fall, 3A<+REP, 3Lz clean, 3S clean, 3F+2A clean, 2Lz!+2A*+2T*, 3Fq - 139.72
NHK - 2A clean but it was also a popped 3A attempt, 1A clean but also another pop, 3Lz clean, 3S clean, 3F+2A+2T clean, 3F<+3Tq, 3Lo<+2T< - 152.01

His Shanghai Trophy was certainly his best scoring SP, though NHK wasn't far off because he managed to get a 3rd combo/seq in the program.

I'd say, at this point, he needs to limit the damage from not having a reliable 3A now. I agree with @tony, he would score in the mid 80s with a 3F, 2A, 3Lz+3T in the SP and that would certainly be enough to qualify for the FS.

In the FS, limit himself to one 3A attempt to open the program & move on from that whether he stands it up or falls - 3F+3T while his legs are fresh, 3Lz, 3S, 3F+2A+2A, 3Lz+2T, 3Lo may be a wiser layout that gets him to the 160 range or higher if everything in the second half is clean.

An 85-ish SP and a 160-ish FS would give him a total score around 245, which may or may not be enough to slide into the top 15, maybe top 12.

Torgy's SB is a 246.58, which would place him 14th of the men competing in Boston - though that doesn't take into account Torgy adding a 2nd quad to his FS.

Of the men entered for Worlds, the following would finish 7th through 16th if we're going by the SB list -
Britschgi 267.09 (questionable for Worlds)
Grassl 267.08 (won't come close to this if he has similar calling as at Euros)
Cha 265.02
Memola 262.61
Egadze 261.71
Tsuboi 251.52
Vasiljevs 251.47
Torgashev 246.58
Litvintsev 246.00
M Selevko 245.06

If things went perfectly, Torgy may wind up as high as 8th or 9th and Jason could finish 12th. But, that's going to require Jason being really smart about his current technical capabilities and delivering a FS layout that minimizes the impact of not having a reliable 3A now.

As far as whether or not that sort of layout & scoring ceiling is going to be enough to win a place on a 3rd Olympic team... Who the hell knows? I'm praying Jacob gets a quad or two in the off-season, or that Patrick Blackwell spends the off-season working on his skating skills & stamina.

 

[Stephanie]

Lucas Broussard please get and stay healthy

 

[On My Own]

This is a tragedy of the scoring system. Sorry, but novice level content should not be scoring 85+ in the senior men's SP, regardless of how great someone's spins and footwork are.

Agree.

 

[Vagabond]

This is a tragedy of the scoring system. Sorry, but novice level content should not be scoring 85+ in the senior men's SP, regardless of how great someone's spins and footwork are.

IMHO, the "tragedy" here is that (1) PCS counts for less than half of most skaters' TSS and (2) the difference in between what Brown and someone like Malinin normally receive in PCS is insufficient to compensate properly for this discrepancy.

I say this as someone who is not particularly a fan of Brown's skating.

 

[BittyBug]

I think your point might have more weight if you didn't exaggerate.

My comment was in response to the hypothetical that Brown lands only a 2A, triple/double combo and solo triple. And yes, that's novice level content.

 

[Vagabond]

My comment was in response to the hypothetical that Brown lands only a 2A, triple/double combo and solo triple. And yes, that's novice level content.

I believe that the point was that Brown earns GOE and levels far beyond what lower-level Senior competitors do, even those good enough to go to Worlds. And why shouldn't he?

 

[MacMadame]

My comment was in response to the hypothetical that Brown lands only a 2A, triple/double combo and solo triple. And yes, that's novice level content.

I understood your comment. I have seen that content in the first group(s) of Men at 4CC and IIRC Euros.

 

[BittyBug]

I understood your comment. I have seen that content in the first group(s) of Men at 4CC and IIRC Euros.

From U.S. men?

 

[MacMadame]

From U.S. men?

I already said it was Senior OES content. Since we're talking about scoring at ISU championships and how Jason compared, what US Novice Men do is irrelevant.

 

[misskarne]

Interesting that he reached USFS’s desired standard in his private monitoring. In his public appearances, his easier triples still look questionable. I mean at Legacy on Ice, Sofia Bezkorovainaya looked more prepared technically to compete in the senior men’s event than Brown did!

Oh yes, a triple flip that he turned out of under the spotlights on a show rink - in a highly emotional show - is the absolute be-all and end-all of assessment on how ready Jason is.

 

[Karen-W]

Oh yes, a triple flip that he turned out of under the spotlights on a show rink - in a highly emotional show - is the absolute be-all and end-all of assessment on how ready Jason is.

Well, comparatively speaking, a turned out 3F was the easiest content attempted by any of the senior men OR women performing, but hey, keep coping.

ETA - but, I will state that I do not believe the show skate was where Jason's skating was assessed. All the Team USA skaters were out in Virginia practicing the day before and it's my assumption that is where his monitoring happened.

 

[her grace]

Oh yes, a triple flip that he turned out of under the spotlights on a show rink - in a highly emotional show - is the absolute be-all and end-all of assessment on how ready Jason is.

Absolutely, it’s not, which is why my next paragraph that you omitted remarked on my wish for a public assessment. Transparency is a good thing.

 

[tony]

Well, comparatively speaking, a turned out 3F was the easiest content attempted by any of the senior men OR women performing, but hey, keep coping.

ETA - but, I will state that I do not believe the show skate was where Jason's skating was assessed. All the Team USA skaters were out in Virginia practicing the day before and it's my assumption that is where his monitoring happened.

It obviously wasn't going to be a tribute show where the USFS was going to make the decision.

ETA- just a general thought to what I'm reading here and how the system is broken because PCS one minute is held in too high regard and the next minute it's not held in enough regard versus all the (typically) non-American jumping beans. Which one is it? And I mean Jason more than just about every other skater checks all the boxes off for getting massive GOE on his spins especially, and even on his step sequences. That's not everything, but those are also four of the seven required elements in the short program.

So back to basics we go. A triple Axel is worth 4.7 points more in base value than a double Axel. A triple toe is worth 2.9 more points than I double toe. 7.6 points base value difference, plus of course potential GOE gained or lost on a bigger scale with the more difficult jumps. But what I want to know is what some people think the difference is or should be?

And I'll also throw in the reminder than Kevin Aymoz did a 3T+3T, 3A, and 3Lz with landing issues (-0.71 GOE) at the Road to '26 and scored 88 points. Those are two of the most well-rounded skaters in the field, and I for one am happy that the rest of their skating doesn't take a huge hit for some unwritten reason just because the content is 'novice'-- apparently.

 

[Rukia]

It obviously wasn't going to be a tribute show where the USFS was going to make the decision.

ETA- just a general thought to what I'm reading here and how the system is broken because PCS one minute is held in too high regard and the next minute it's not held in enough regard versus all the (typically) non-American jumping beans. Which one is it? And I mean Jason more than just about every other skater checks all the boxes off for getting massive GOE on his spins especially, and even on his step sequences.

So back to basics we go. A triple Axel is worth 4.7 points more in base value than a double Axel. A triple toe is worth 2.9 more points than I double toe. 7.6 points base value difference, plus of course potential GOE gained or lost on a bigger scale with the more difficult jumps. But what I want to know is what some people think the difference is or should be?

And I'll also throw in the reminder than Kevin Aymoz did a 3T+3T, 3A, and 3Lz with landing issues (-0.71 GOE) at the Road to '26 and scored 88 points. Those are two of the most well-rounded skaters in the field, and I for one am happy that the rest of their skating doesn't take a huge hit for some unwritten reason just because the content is 'novice' apparently.

it's very simple- if the skaters are my favorites they should max out their pcs regardless of their jumping ability and also ignore their jumps you won't find that in your "manual" and "rules" but it's still true

 

[BittyBug]

And I'll also throw in the reminder than Kevin Aymoz did a 3T+3T, 3A, and 3Lz with landing issues (-0.71 GOE) at the Road to '26 and scored 88 points. Those are two of the most well-rounded skaters in the field, and I for one am happy that the rest of their skating doesn't take a huge hit for some unwritten reason just because the content is 'novice'-- apparently.

A triple axel is not novice content; a double axel is.

As for the marks, to my taste Aymoz is overrated. He's no more well-rounded in the evenness of his abilities (spins, jumps, footwork, skating skills) than any other dozen+ skaters - Torgy, Pulkinen, Rizzo, Memola, Vasjilievs, Romsky, Siao Him Fa, Kagiyama, Miura, Sato, Cha, etc. Like Jason, he's typically very emotionally engaged in his performances, but I don't think his skating skills are superior to any of the afore-mentioned skaters.

 

[MacMadame]

As for the marks, to my taste Aymoz is overrated. He's no more well-rounded in the evenness of his abilities (spins, jumps, footwork, skating skills) than any other dozen+ skaters - Torgy, Pulkinen, Rizzo, Memola, Vasjilievs, Romsky, Siao Him Fa, Kagiyama, Miura, Sato, Cha, etc. Like Jason, he's typically very emotionally engaged in his performances, but I don't think his skating skills are superior to any of the afore-mentioned skaters.

They are definitely superior to Siao Him Fa's. Adam has a lot of strengths but he doesn't have the glide and flow that Kevin has.

And I say that as someone who is not a big fan of either of them.

 

[jlai]

A triple axel is not novice content; a double axel is.

As for the marks, to my taste Aymoz is overrated. He's no more well-rounded in the evenness of his abilities (spins, jumps, footwork, skating skills) than any other dozen+ skaters - Torgy, Pulkinen, Rizzo, Memola, Vasjilievs, Romsky, Siao Him Fa, Kagiyama, Miura, Sato, Cha, etc. Like Jason, he's typically very emotionally engaged in his performances, but I don't think his skating skills are superior to any of the afore-mentioned skaters.

There is one thing that he has that others don’t. Abandon. He is less controlled in his movement but more abandon. It really showed in Question of U. Compared that with Jason’s program to the same music he has more abandon which adds to excitement when clean

 

[Allskate]

There is one thing that he has that others don’t. Abandon. He is less controlled in his movement but more abandon. It really showed in Question of U. Compared that with Jason’s program to the same music he has more abandon which adds to excitement when clean

Yeah. You could say the same thing about Adam. Honestly, I enjoy both Kevin and Adam, but using "abandon" seems like a nice way of saying "lack of control."

IMO, control over your skates should be a positive in PCS. Lack of control shoud be the opposite.

You can have emotional skating and dynamic skating and also have control.

 

[jlai]

I don’t know if I would associate abandon with Adam but ymmv.

does Aymoz have a lack of control? Sure. But he is looser in body movement for lack of a better term, so when he is on there is an excitement factor as well.

Jason has more control and hence less abandon

I have enjoyed both.

Abandon isn’t all negative imho

 

[On My Own]

As for the marks, to my taste Aymoz is overrated. He's no more well-rounded in the evenness of his abilities (spins, jumps, footwork, skating skills) than any other dozen+ skaters - Torgy, Pulkinen, Rizzo, Memola, Vasjilievs, Romsky, Siao Him Fa, Kagiyama, Miura, Sato, Cha, etc.

Aymoz tends to present far better range of movement than most you mentioned here, if not all. The choreography and transitions tend to be much richer. IMO, anyway. And no, that Bolero, as an example, was just not to my taste, nor did I like that 2021-22 long program, or either of this or the previous season's programs.

I have not enjoyed many performances from him at this point, but I don't at all believe he's on the same level as Torgashev, Pulkinen(!), Rizzo(!!), Memola(!!), Sadovsky, Siao Him Fa, Miura, Kagiyama, Sato(!!!), or Cha in terms of performance. His component is superior to a lot of them if not all, and much superior to a few of them, when he's on.

His jumps get more height than some of these skaters, and the toe jumps are done with just plain better technique than many of them. Weaker on the edge jumps than some like Kagiyama.

He's a weaker spinner, but are we really placing him on the same level as Pulkinen, Rizzo, or Siao Him Fa there? Or Sato? Miura? I wish I could remember Memola's spins, but I don't, and don't want to watch.

His edge is shallower and less controlled than some of these (Kagiyama, Cha come to mind), but choreographically his steps tend to be superior, going better with the music, apart from Siao Him Fa whom I'd place equal on that quality. But then Siao Him Fa has worse basic skating than Aymoz, as has been mentioned.

ETA: None of this is to justify that 88 score on the content mentioned (with mistakes, at that), and PCS should be scored on the day as far as I'm concerned (it's laughable to see posts justifying reputation judging), just that I don't at all agree with your take on these skaters.

 

[Aceon6]

I’m old enough to just appreciate skaters who lean into their best attributes and construct programs around them. Trying to “do it all” inevitably causes them to crash and burn on their weaker elements.

 

[On My Own]

I’m old enough to just appreciate skaters who lean into their best attributes and construct programs around them. Trying to “do it all” inevitably causes them to crash and burn on their weaker elements.

I agree actually. It makes more sense to construct a program around their best attributes, than getting everything 'up to scratch'. Barely anyone, if not nobody at all, was good at everything.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

Beck Strommer was a guest on the Off Ice Hours podcast hosted by Lindsay Wang and Luke Wang. He gives some hints about his programs for next season.

Episode 11 : Metamorphosis..w/ Beck Strommer

Podcast Episode · Office Hours · 03/05/2025 · 49m

podcasts.apple.com

 

[YukiNieve]

Jason landed a clean 3A at the rehearsal for Notte Stellata.
He skated SP and exhibition version of FS.

ETA: He also landed 3A-3T for practice, but did 2A for the show performance today.

 

[Carolla5501]

Interesting that he reached USFS’s desired standard in his private monitoring. In his public appearances, his easier triples still look questionable. I mean at Legacy on Ice, Sofia Bezkorovainaya looked more prepared technically to compete in the senior men’s event than Brown did!

IMO monitoring should be done in public, preferably in competition like Levito did.

Yes, because all of us are qualified judges. And none of us, of course have any bias . I mean none of us either want him to do well or want him to do badly so our favorite can go. And since we’re unbiased we are the best judges ever.
Honestly, there’s no reason for it to be done publicly except for that.


Personally, I’m not sure why Levito had to fly halfway across the world to do her monitoring, but if she did, she did. I hope that it was just something she wanted to do and not US figure skatings idea of a great plan. I can understand why other skaters would not want to do international travel leading up to worlds. As someone who does international travel for work, it is exhausting. “Let’s show up at worlds exhausted because that will be so much better” said no one ever.

 

[Karen-W]

Yes, because all of us are qualified judges. And none of us, of course have any bias . I mean none of us either want him to do well or want him to do badly so our favorite csnn go. And since we’re unbiased we are the best judges ever.
Honestly, there’s no reason for it to be done publicly except for that.


Personally, I’m not sure why Levito had to fly halfway across the world to do her monitoring, but if she did, she did. I hope that it was just something she wanted to do and not US figure skatings idea of a great plan. I can understand why other skaters would not want to do international travel leading up to worlds. As someone who does international travel for work, it is exhausting. “Let’s show up at worlds exhausted because that will be so much better” said no one ever.

I don't think Levito flew halfway across the world for her monitoring. She flew halfway across the world to be a part of NBC's 1-yr to Milano-Cortina countdown celebrations on The Today Show. And her mom is from Milano, so it was an opportunity to see family. That Road to 26 Trophy was that same week was a nice coincidence. I suspect that she would have competed in that event in lieu of 4CCs even had she been at Nats.