The Dance Hall 13: When You Dance on the Ice and Your Feet Twizzle Twice, That's Amore

cris said:
Thomas and Tony, I wanted to ask you something about Skate America, but haven't manage so far. During the FD, didn't Chock lose her balance during the third set of twizzles? I was thinking about this especially after Gilles's base level tonight.
Also, thank you for all the clips, you are a treasure!
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Yes, you did, and it wasn't downgraded. So how does Piper get a B?
 
I imagine already being discussed that Ciz and Piper have spoken up and criticized the tech panel? Kind of interesting here.

Guillaume Cizeron & Piper Gilles critique today’s Ice Dance tech calls at GP Finland press conference

Shawn Rettstatt, the head of the Ice Dance Technical Committee, was the technical controller last week at Skate America and is also doing the same for GP Finlandia Trophy.

The first two are screenshots from Maya Bagriantseva’s Telegram that are auto translated from Russian. The third are Piper’s original comments in English, can’t find Guillaume’s so if anyone finds it please feel free to add.

 
Apologies if this has already been discussed in the RD thread but I didn't watch live (never has going to adult edge class been a wiser choice) and don't know if I can face diving in. :lol:

From my perspective, there are a few different things going on here:

  1. Stricter panels - I'm a fan of strict panels and by the book judging (Marika Humphreys, I miss you!). This season panels across the board have been more focused on twizzle levels, and that's a good thing.
  2. Consistency - Panels should take the same approach to applying the rules to all teams, regardless of their reputation or the school they come from. But they should also aim for consistency across competitions. Of course panel members are human, so it's never going to be possible to achieve that 100%, but scores matter as well as relative positions and lately it's been beyond joking about ridiculous scores and giving out PBs like candy at certain obscure B events. This season SA and Finlandia have been noticeably stricter than the earlier GPs, and at the margin that could affect GPF qualification. The Finlandia panel today was on a different planet to Warsaw Cup, also this week, but both events count for ISU PBs, and could affect who gets assigned to GPs next season, or play into their countries' criteria for selecting championship teams. It does affect skaters' careers.
  3. Unclear rules - It's seems like at least part of the problem with the levels on the pattern step this season is that it wasn't clear to teams and their coaches what they had to do to get levels. The guidance was updated late in the off season, but it seems that many still struggled and the issues weren't clear until they competed. In some cases, teams competed a few times and then were told that they needed to change things. This shouldn't be happening, and it shouldn't be so hard to write clear rules and communicate them to coaches and federations (especially as, on paper, it seems like the rules are pretty lenient - not many difficult steps required).
  4. Occasional bizarre calls, like calling things which are clearly not the choreo step the choreo step - don't penalise skaters for actually having choreography in their programmes!
  5. People in ice dance wearing too many hats - Shawn Rettstatt is the most high profile and one of the most egregious examples, but he's far from the only one. At a minimum I don't think the people who set the rules (ice dance technical committee) should also be interpreting the rules (serving on technical panels).

I don't think I'm (too deep) in the uber matrix on this, but I'm certainly biased by me feelings about Rettstatt (that the IDTC under his leadership has been a plague on the sport) and certain other regular panel members.
 
thvu said:
Our thoughts on the Finlandia Trophy RD calling mess:

thvu

Post in thread 'The Skating Session - A New Show'

SOS Ice Dance Judging - S2E12 - Special Episode on Finlandia Trophy Rhythm Dance & Reaction​


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I was so worked up post this event I had to listen :lol: A few things came to mind while listening:

1.I would have added that they have the program content sheets. The panel would and should have know where the choreo step was intended based on that sheet. That was a deliberate choice on their part to do that. Dick move. Adhering to the program content sheet should eliminate any uncertainty. They made a deliberate choice to be "confused" and why has to wonder why.

2. The discussion about seeing Rettstatt hand a piece of paper to MF after watching C/B practice at SA(?). Now my knowledge is dated so maybe times have changed but I know that wasn't allowed years ago because I was specifically told by an official that they saw something in practice that wasn't allowed by a team from their country and told them anyway so they could change it before the competition. So maybe it's allowed now but the fact that you guys bring it up and Rettstatt wasn't doing it for others makes me suspect it's still not allowed.

So for those who say he is only one person of three and you need a majority. THAT is one way he can help the teams he wants. For instance that insane call today for FB/C choreo step was 100% a discussion that came up at least during practice when they watched. Now imagine if it were C/B or Z/K at risk, do you think Rettstatt would have told them? 100% he would have. That is not an even playing field.

3. Another way in which Rettstatt, still only 1/3, can have a disproportionate impact on the marks is by inconsistently calling for reviews. I put this here not for you as you addressed that yourself but for others that say "he is only one of three". YEARS AGO there was an ISU official on tech panels for ice dance. Whenever the team from their country skated BEFORE their biggest rival, their rivals ended up getting a lot of reviews. Now when the biggest rival of the team from HER country skated first very few reviews were called and they tended to get their levels. It was a pattern. That is another way ONE person on a panel can play games and affect things. And being the head of IDTC others on the panel are less likely to put up a huge debate and bow to his opinion. Not unlike you noticing how really really nitpicky they got with Piper's twizzles while letting Vadyms fly under the radar.

I am at least happy to see your video, other skaters comments on SM and specifically Guillaume and Piper speaking out because this man should NOT be anywhere near a championship panel in 2026.
 
chantilly said:
I read somewhere, that with regard to the pattern steps that the teams can only "retrogress" going in or out of the steps, which is a new rule, from what I understand.
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I read the same comment, I think - over on Reddit, following the RD at SKAM? The poster had their information from Jean-Luc Baker, in person, at the competition. IIRC the new rule is that teams aren't allowed to retrogress in the step sequences when coming out of turns; it was instituted because teams were increasingly using choreographed retrogressions at those points as a strategy to make their edges look artificially deeper, but the problem is that you can't do some of those turns correctly without a certain amount of retrogression happening, in the same way that you can't do certain jumps over in singles without a certain amount of prerotation happening. So in order to avoid having their step sequences invalidated for retrogression, skaters are in effect having to do key turns wrongly. And then they get penalised for it in level calls and (possibly) GOE.

Someone should have thought that rule through better.
 
marbri said:
I was so worked up post this event I had to listen :lol: A few things came to mind while listening:

2. The discussion about seeing Rettstatt hand a piece of paper to MF after watching C/B practice at SA(?). Now my knowledge is dated so maybe times have changed but I know that wasn't allowed years ago because I was specifically told by an official that they saw something in practice that wasn't allowed by a team from their country and told them anyway so they could change it before the competition. So maybe it's allowed now but the fact that you guys bring it up and Rettstatt wasn't doing it for others makes me suspect it's still not allowed.

So for those who say he is only one person of three and you need a majority. THAT is one way he can help the teams he wants. For instance that insane call today for FB/C choreo step was 100% a discussion that came up at least during practice when they watched. Now imagine if it were C/B or Z/K at risk, do you think Rettstatt would have told them? 100% he would have. That is not an even playing field.
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So, do we know WHAT was on that piece of paper? Do we know the exact timing of when Rettstatt allegedly handed MF this piece of paper? Do we have video footage that can prove exactly how soon after ChoBat's practice this occurred?

This is the first I've heard/seen this allegation - no one's brought it up in here or anywhere else on FSU and I certainly haven't seen this rumor circulating on X which is a cesspool of ChoBat hatred - so I'm quite surprised to see it coming up now, a week later when, suddenly, FBCiz got an unfavorable call for their choreo step sequence, especially when others have pointed out that this is the sort of call that a different member of the tech panel, Towler-Green, was on a panel that made the exact same call against another team in the past.

I'm all for giving Rettstatt all the hate he deserves, but we don't have any insight into the tech panel's deliberations today. For all we know, Towler-Green and Pedrazzini could have been the ones giving the ! call on the choreo step seq. And, FWIW, I'm no fan of the choreo step seq in the RD. It's nothing but a GOE grab for teams and doesn't serve any purpose but to keep teams boxed into their relative tiers within the international ice dance hierarchy. IAM has taken ruthless advantage of it, especially during this current Olympic cycle, but the hysterics about the FBCiz call today are a tad on the melodramatic side. I mean, teams can still have choreography and there are ways of setting up that opening choreo bit that don't invite the tech panel to do what they did today. Not that I expect most of the Cizeron ubers around here to see it that way at all.
 
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kwanfan1818 said:
Who chooses the ISU Technical panel participants for the Olympics?
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The Referee, technical controller and technical specialists are named by ISU President based on the proposal of ISU Vice President-Figure Skating. The Vice Presidents prepare the proposals in consultation with the respective Sports Technical Directors and the respective Technical Committee. [Article 16 of ISU Constitution].

The ISU Member for the country in which the Olympic Winter Games are held may recommend to serve not more than two of its own Referees/Technical Controllers/Technical Specialists for Single & Pair Skating plus one Referee/ Technical Controller/Technical Specialist for Ice Dance, including those that are also ISU Office Holders. Such recommendations must be submitted to the respective Sports Technical Director(s), not later than April 1st in the year preceding the Olympic Winter Games. [Rule 401]

ISU Code of Ethics (Communication No. 2702) says
No individual shall serve as a member of the Technical Panel or as the Referee at the Olympic Winter Games in a discipline in which Skaters/Pairs/Ice Dance couples of their own ISU Member participate who has/have placed 1 – 5 at the ISU World Championships in the immediately preceding season or who can reasonably be expected to place 1 – 5 at the respective Olympic Winter Games
[However, it says something similar for ISU Championships and it isn't not always applied. However, in that case, the code says "whenever possible"]
 
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People are saying Rettstatt is a paid consultant of Zingas/kolesnik, such as picking their previous programs and that is the main reason for their rise. It has been all over Twitter the last few weeks, can someone clarify if this is accurate?
 
LilJen said:
Call me old fashioned, but can we penalize Laurence and Yuko for having butt cheeks hanging out? I’m all for short shorts but could they maybe set a minimum inseam length? ETA Zingas too.

Also, GOE is the new 6.0.
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You sound like me last year and they said they were gonna call the wedgy police lol.

Speaking of the issue you bring up, you should see some of the female patrons at my gym. I mean, I wish I could see the men dress that way…
 
Andrea82 said:
The ISU Member for the country in which the Olympic Winter Games are held may recommend to serve not more than two of its own Referees/Technical Controllers/Technical Specialists for Single & Pair Skating plus one Referee/ Technical Controller/Technical Specialist for Ice Dance
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Andrea82 said:
No individual shall serve as a member of the Technical Panel or as the Referee at the Olympic Winter Games in a discipline in which Skaters/Pairs/Ice Dance couples of their own ISU Member participate who has/have placed 1 – 5 at the ISU World Championships in the immediately preceding season or who can reasonably be expected to place 1 – 5 at the respective Olympic Winter Games
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Does the host recommendation override the ethics clause? If not, at this point, Italy could nominate two total for Men and Women, but not for Pairs or Dance, so no Pedrazzini. I think the only skater/team that could be reasonably expected to place 1-5 in Milano and who comes from a member who can have officials there are Fournier Beaudry/Cizeron.

The rest of the Finlandia Trophy tech panel wouldn't qualify, including Rettstatt, because it's an all top-five from Boston panel, even if the host can over-rule the ethics clause.
 
kwanfan1818 said:
What is unclear about the requirements for the pattern step?
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I don't think it's that the requirements are unclear it's that the timing requirements are quite restrictive. 120 bpm meaning 2 beats per second, and the requirements state that the entry, and exit edge on the different difficult turns must be performed with no more than 2 beats for the entry edge, and two beats for the exit edge meaning that the skaters have 1 second to establish establish each edge. To me that seems antithetical to the nature of skating that emphases long sweeping edges, and turns, and it means that it's very difficult for teams to earn more than a level 1 for this element.
 
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL) said:
You sound like me last year and they said they were gonna call the wedgy police lol.

Speaking of the issue you bring up, you should see some of the female patrons at my gym. I mean, I wish I could see the men dress that way…
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Oh man. My YMCA has signs saying “dress modestly, blah blah family facility” but…
 
this was most likely been discussed in the rhythm dance thread but did they play the Czechs wrong music but they just got skating to it? Oh my gosh she dropped the F bomb on the ice as she was skating to Maurizio.
 
of all the rhythm dances the season 4 them stick out. The rest of them don’t do much for me.

Those are ..

Emilia and Vadym
Piper and Paul
Lilah and Lewis
LFB and Ciz

Well, that’s interesting, looking at this… three of them are out gay men.

Edited later I do kind of like Team Georgia RD as well.
 
kwanfan1818 said:
Does the host recommendation override the ethics clause? If not, at this point, Italy could nominate two total for Men and Women, but not for Pairs or Dance, so no Pedrazzini. I think the only skater/team that could be reasonably expected to place 1-5 in Milano and who comes from a member who can have officials there are Fournier Beaudry/Cizeron.

The rest of the Finlandia Trophy tech panel wouldn't qualify, including Rettstatt, because it's an all top-five from Boston panel, even if the host can over-rule the ethics clause.
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France wouldn't be allowed to have a member of the tech panel anymore than the USA, Canada, Great Britain or Italy per the rules as quoted by Andrea. There's no unreasonable expectation that a team with the 2nd highest SB and likely GPF qualifier won't place 1-5 in Milano-Cortina. If the ISU follows that rule explicitly, I would expect Lithuania to also be excluded should ReedAmbru make the GPF (especially if they do not finish last at the GPF). Theoretically, if the ISU wanted to be really strict, they could also exclude Spain from any tech panels since SmaDie finished 3rd in the FD at Worlds last year.

Of course, that wouldn't exclude everyone who was on the tech panel either this week or last week. Stefano Caruso GER and Tomas Kika SVK were the tech specialists last week. Caruso was also, I might note, one of the TS on that infamous Skate to Milano tech panel (along with TC Rocky Lemay CAN & TS Judy Blumberg USA). The other tech panels that had fans chattering about strict calling this season were Nebelhorn (TC - Marcin Kozubek POL, TS - Towler-Green and Christian Nuechtern GER) and Nepela (TC - Akos Pethes HUN, TS - Slavka Grincova SVK & Anna Krytskaya POL).

If the Olympic tech panel pools pull from the 6 people who hail from countries without teams expected or having the potential to place 1-5 in Milano-Cortina (Nuechtern is only Int'l level, not ISU level), then we have the following options:

TC - Pethes HUN, Kozubek POL, Grincova SVK
TS - Caruso GER, Krytskaya POL, Grincova SVK, Kika SVK

We'll have to see who is on the tech panel at the GPF and how the calling there goes to see if the pool expands but, right now, there are enough people who've been on the toughest panels this fall to fill the TE and ID tech panels without breaking the 1-5 rule. Heck, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia don't even have teams competing in the Olympics at this point (Poland may wind up with their dance team there only for the TE).
 
Karen-W said:
France wouldn't be allowed to have a member of the tech panel anymore than the USA, Canada, Great Britain or Italy per the rules as quoted by Andrea. There's no unreasonable expectation that a team with the 2nd highest SB and likely GPF qualifier won't place 1-5 in Milano-Cortina.
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That's what I wrote. The other two skaters who could be reasonably expected to place 1-5 are AIN skaters, and they cannot have judges, at least at this time.
 
So, I was curious what the tech panel saw this week that wasn't caught by the tech panel at Grand Prix de France for the opening choreo section of FBCiz that has so many people up in arms about the bogus call. It wasn't a bogus call, folks. I clipped the same section from GPdF and compared it to Finlandia. They were a LOT closer to center ice for their starting positions in Angers than they were in Helsinki. They also came way too close to the boards when they circle around each other and skate toward the boards in Helsinki compared to Angers. The end of the opening choreo section finishes up right in front of the judges at both GPdF and Finlandia. The tech panel wasn't wrong to call it for what it was, even if it wasn't their intention for that to be their choreo step sequence.

 
Karen-W said:
France wouldn't be allowed to have a member of the tech panel anymore than the USA, Canada, Great Britain or Italy per the rules as quoted by Andrea. There's no unreasonable expectation that a team with the 2nd highest SB and likely GPF qualifier won't place 1-5 in Milano-Cortina. If the ISU follows that rule explicitly, I would expect Lithuania to also be excluded should ReedAmbru make the GPF (especially if they do not finish last at the GPF). Theoretically, if the ISU wanted to be really strict, they could also exclude Spain from any tech panels since SmaDie finished 3rd in the FD at Worlds last year.
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Olympic tech panels are nominated well in advance, usually in the Summer. That's why the hosting Fed had to submit their names in the spring.
[Lithuania and Spain do not have technical specialists or controllers for ID anyway]
I saw a tweet in August by Spanish Federation congratulating Saioa Sancho for being chosen as one of the Referees for the Olympics.

EDIT: I checked the ISU Constitution. Appointments should be done by August 15th.

kwanfan1818 said:
Does the host recommendation override the ethics clause? If not, at this point, Italy could nominate two total for Men and Women, but not for Pairs or Dance, so no Pedrazzini. I think the only skater/team that could be reasonably expected to place 1-5 in Milano and who comes from a member who can have officials there are Fournier Beaudry/Cizeron.

The rest of the Finlandia Trophy tech panel wouldn't qualify, including Rettstatt, because it's an all top-five from Boston panel, even if the host can over-rule the ethics clause.
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As it is ISU, you would never know ... they also have this just before
"When appointing the members of the Technical Panel and the Referees for ISU Senior Championships, whenever possible, there shall be no appointments of Officials from ISU Members whose Skaters can reasonably be expected to place 1 – 5 in the respective discipline. In case this is not possible, all members of the Technical Panel and the Referee for the respective discipline shall, whenever possible, be from ISU Members whose Skater(s) can reasonably be expected to place 1 – 5 in the respective discipline at the ISU Championships concerned"
And then look at 2025 Euro panel...and you would wonder how it fulfill it. But there they have the "whenever possible" excuse. When they wrote the point about Olympics, they did not added a way out of it. Theoretically.

In 2022 China had only two ISU level officials: one technical controller for single and one technical specialist for pairs.
And they were not put on the pair panel (where they were medal contender).
Before the Code of Ethics did not include those points.
 
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Karen-W said:
So, I was curious what the tech panel saw this week that wasn't caught by the tech panel at Grand Prix de France for the opening choreo section of FBCiz that has so many people up in arms about the bogus call. It wasn't a bogus call, folks. I clipped the same section from GPdF and compared it to Finlandia. They were a LOT closer to center ice for their starting positions in Angers than they were in Helsinki. They also came way too close to the boards when they circle around each other and skate toward the boards in Helsinki compared to Angers. The end of the opening choreo section finishes up right in front of the judges at both GPdF and Finlandia. The tech panel wasn't wrong to call it for what it was, even if it wasn't their intention for that to be their choreo step sequence.

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He was nowhere near 2 meters from the board yesterday. If that's what one believes is the trigger of the beginning the element, then how can one assume they were doing a ChSq there if he wasn't close enough?
 
tony said:
He was nowhere near 2 meters from the board yesterday. If that's what one believes is the trigger of the beginning the element, then how can one assume they were doing a ChSq there if he wasn't close enough?
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Two meters is over 6 feet. Give me a break if you think he wasn't within 6 feet of the boards as he looped behind Laurence.
 
Sorry if this has been answered already, but did the skaters' team try to appeal this call?

Or more generally, can someone summarize what can be appealed? I think it has to be immediate (before the referee certifies the result) and coaches can only appeal a call about their own skater(s).
 
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