How is that judgmental? Many people use VPNs, so I'm asking if they can't find one. I don't know which country they live in, for all I know they're banned.
What Do Fans Want?
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Karen-W
Let the fan wars of the Olympic season begin!
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Honestly, it's really none of our business. I'm sure the poster is well aware of what VPNs are since they're routinely discussed here.
Karen-W
Let the fan wars of the Olympic season begin!
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No, it really is NOT any of our business. If you want to know, take it to DM instead of being a nosy busybody publicly.
How about you stop dictating to me what I should do on a public forum?
I'm sure Tak can speak for themselves. I didn't aim it at you.
Im not very tech savvy. I don't know what a vpn is or how to use it. And why should I need to? What I want as a fan is an official website that anyone can access without having to install extra equipment where I can watch the skating in real time, since it's not available here until much later.
That is unfortunately not solely on the ISU, it's to do with who has broadcasting rights in various countries. The ISU did do its best there to promote the sport and make it accessible ?
I'd recommend getting a VPN to anyone if they don't already have one. It's easy to use. The Opera Browser already has one for free.
MacMadame
Getting radicalized on YouTube
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I have no idea what you are talking about or trying to say. What I think is going on is that people think they know the rules when they only know about 75% of them and also they tend to inflate what they like with what should be rewarded.
Sure, that's exactly what I said. Not.
But I think it's a good example of why a lot of people don't post in the PBP threads. People making comments about what they are seeing do not want a lecture, especially a condescending one. And a lot of time, they are posting fast to not miss the skating so maybe they don't explain themselves the best.
In this case, I said I don't understand why these skaters are getting these levels on such an easy dance and you decided I meant they were making the turns and the judges weren't giving credit when what I was saying was that they are perfectly capable of doing this dance better so why aren't they? Instead of asking me what I meant, you gave this long lecture about how judging works that would have been appropriate for a two-year-old. Luckily, someone else pointed out that they get so many points from the GOE that they don't really need to hit the levels. That makes sense. (Even if I think it's an example of why ice dance judging is whack these days.)
Anyway, I think no matter what, people will complain about the judging even if is a lot better than it is right now. People complain about officiating in sports that aren't judged so they are definitely going to complain about judging in a judged sport where there is more room for disagreement.
The overwhelming majority of people watching any sport don't care about rules. I've lost count of the men I've been around who yell at their TV screens knowing even less than I do about whichever straight-ass sport they're yelling about.
I watch FIFA with my male relatives every four years and I still don't know anything about soccer apart from the fact that there are two nets and a ball. And the referee sucks because someone in the room said so. Would definitely call myself a "long time fan" by this point.
I watch FIFA with my male relatives every four years and I still don't know anything about soccer apart from the fact that there are two nets and a ball. And the referee sucks because someone in the room said so. Would definitely call myself a "long time fan" by this point.
Miezekatze
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I find it so so so so so funny, that people ramble on about how judges make mistakes and do a bad job and that ruins the sport and there needs to be more technique and even more gadgets and graphs and stuff to make stuff like GOES or jump rotations more objective.
Still exactly those fans think THEY are the ones who can always see which skater underrotates which jump and what is the right GOE or score , when THEY watch skating on their ONE screen with ONE camera angle
This is certainly why I don't post or even read PBP threads, because then I'd always have to sit on my hands while doing it, to not write what I think about that all the time
All that said, I think when the ISU or regional federations want to find out how to get more fans to watch skating live and maybe post about it on TikTok, I think the engaged fans that post here are not the people who's opinion is very important, cause they are not the majority of people who watch skating, but only the smallest part (also a rather old-fashioned part, since we're all pretty old).
I also think it's normal that young people aren't interested in the history of the sport. When I become a fan it was the 90s and 2000s, a bit of the 80s...I didn't ever go sit around watching skating from the 1960s or 1970s...so why would young people today watch skating of the 90s or 2000s, for them that's equally "ancient" as skating from the 1960s/1970s was for me.
My favourites are the ones who have opinions on 'q', actually. Y'know, the bogus call that's supposed to be called "on the quarter". Yeah, you certainly know a jump was 'q', staring at your laptop...Still exactly those fans think THEY are the ones who can always see which skater underrotates which jump and what is the right GOE or score , when THEY watch skating on their ONE screen with ONE camera angle
Karen-W
Let the fan wars of the Olympic season begin!
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Tell me you don't know many male American sports fans without telling me you don't know many male American sports fans.
Most of the men I know either played the sport in question as a youth and understand the general rules of the sport they're watching, and if they didn't play then they have been quite possibly been a coach or asst coach for their child's youth team. I can assure you, having watched more than my share of college and NFL football games with my dad & brothers over the years that they understand offensive and defensive formations, game strategy, and they may disagree with the referees' calls from time to time, but that's not because they don't know and understand the rules. Additionally, I know that, at least with college football, the networks here have a representative from the organization that oversees the officiating crews on standby to chime in when there's an out-of-the-ordinary situation that happens during the game, and that rep will explain why the rules are the way they are to properly set up the viewer for what may be a controversial call otherwise.
The fact is, at least in the US and I suspect in Canada as well, the national broadcaster does NOT put the same resources into properly explaining figure skating judging, nor do they treat the viewers with the same level of respect that they do give to the NFL/NCAAF/NBA/MLB/NHL viewers when it comes to refereeing/umpiring/judging and potentially controversial calls.
I don't. I don't want to.
Why should I? Do you know many male sports fans from other countries?
Karen-W
Let the fan wars of the Olympic season begin!
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I'm not saying you should, but you made a very broad generalization that I can assure you is NOT true for most male sports fans I know in the US (and I'd bet the same is true in Canada).
Private Citizen
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I largely agree with you, but feeds can be streamed onto, say, 85" TVs (That's usually what I do.) Sometimes it can be easier to see if something is underrotated from a TV screen with a good camera angle than from the arena, especially if a jump is, e.g., crammed into the corner. I was kind of shocked at how much less obvious Sakamoto's flutz looked live, when I was sitting right behind the judges. I could sort-of understand the non-calls. In this case, I trust TV over live perception.
In real-time, I think it's easy enough to spot jumps that may be either q or <. Trying to separate q from < in real-time is incredibly tough, live or on camera. I cannot do it. On replay, it's easier to have an opinion. But sometimes I'm left confused even with replays.
I find it so so so so so funny, that people ramble on about how judges make mistakes and do a bad job and that ruins the sport and there needs to be more technique and even more gadgets and graphs and stuff to make stuff like GOES or jump rotations more objective.
Still exactly those fans think THEY are the ones who can always see which skater underrotates which jump and what is the right GOE or score , when THEY watch skating on their ONE screen with ONE camera angle
Sometimes they are right
, and sometimes the callers and judges eventually come around to their line of thinking. Of course, sometimes they are also just ranting in an obviously biased way (me included ). I am disappointed, and it does affect my enjoyment of the sport, when skaters like Sakamoto systematically get seven to ten points they shouldn't have because their blatantly obvious flutz isn't called when others' are. Or when a less well-known skater in the early group doesn't get GOE for excellent elements, and a well-known skaters in a later group gets fantastic GOE for average elements. There continue to be systemic problems with judging, some of which existed long before COP, and I'm glad when fans points them out. I'd probably be done with the sport entirely if I ever stopped hoping this would change.I did watch old videos, and I wonder if skating from the 1990s and 2000s looks as strange, dated, and awful to "kids today" as skating from the 1960s and 1970s looked to me
. It's funny that the distance between, say, Peggy Fleming and peak Michelle Kwan is almost the same difference as peak Michelle Kwan and today's skaters. In my head, the former distance is 3x as long as the latter.Current Replay Systems Not Up To Task of Insuring Accurate Calls
Jump rotation is a camera angle, frame rate and resolution issue. Just because it looks one way on TV or laptop doesn't mean much, unless people are willing to prove the camera angle on their TV or laptop is the one that perfectly transmits all the requisite information to your eyes, I guess.
(That particular essay is why I'd never want a 'q' call to be made, ever, for the record, and why I think it's bullshit to have one. It matters far less to me what some rando online is saying, because the ignore button exists for a reason)
Jump rotation is a camera angle, frame rate and resolution issue. Just because it looks one way on TV or laptop doesn't mean much, unless people are willing to prove the camera angle on their TV or laptop is the one that perfectly transmits all the requisite information to your eyes, I guess.
(That particular essay is why I'd never want a 'q' call to be made, ever, for the record, and why I think it's bullshit to have one. It matters far less to me what some rando online is saying, because the ignore button exists for a reason)
Private Citizen
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I agree with the article, and with you (and tony) on 'q' calls. But the article also claims at least 20% of calls are wrong, that the naked eye is useless, and that the tech panel has access to one camera angle with insufficient video quality. So I'm not actually sure it supports the conclusion that the tech panel has an advantage over some rando online. The "Having Only One Camera is an Impediment" section may actually give an advantage to some rando online.
E.g., I suspect skaters like Sakamoto know everything in this article, and thus place their flutzes in a place where it's hard for the judges or the replay camera to see. (Amber Glenn's triple loop from the GPF is another example where video was useless.) There are 10+ ill-gotten points that affect all skaters in the competition.
I wish I'd concluded that, but I didn't, surprisingly.
Or it could not. It depends on what's being offered.
Sakamoto's flutz ought to be obvious to the TP based off how she enters the jump and then enters rotation. I'm sure many are aware, tbh. And it's very different from 'exactly 90 degrees short' and the other layers of hyper scrutiny.
Private Citizen
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Based on reputation, sure. I sat behind the judges at the GPF and watched their replay screens. Based on that angle, I would not have called the flutz on the first lutz. You could have knocked me over with a feather. Levito also often escapes a call on the first lutz, or gets a less harsh call on the first than the second, for the same reason: angle.
Given the penalty for e versus !, I do think this falls into hyper-scrutiny. If we're getting rid of q, we should get rid of !, too.
And based on the fact that jumps are moving across the ice, so a change in the curve of the jump before the skater takes off shouldn't be so beyond the TP to catch.
Again, based off momentum, it makes sense to differentiate between an imperfect versus downright wrong edge, than it does for 90 degree UR versus 100 degrees UR.
I've written before, as an example, that a skater who has a deep outside edge before it flattens out and starts leaning inside when the skater picks in has a more counter-rotated Lutz than a skater who has a shallow outside edge throughout the take-off. In this case, it makes no sense to give the first Lutz a full 'e'. The '!' makes more sense. (ETA: watching a recent video, Sakamoto might actually qualify for this type of Lutz)
90 degrees UR and 80 degrees UR and 100 degrees UR are going to produce practically the same kind of hook and any other flaw on the landing, and can't even be discerned properly enough using camera. What sense is there to ding the 90 degrees with 'q' and 100 degrees with '<' and 80 degrees with nothing?
ETA: and I'm going to stop here because I don't usually imagine spending my Sundays like this.
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