Unpopular Opinions

[bardtoob]

On the other hand, nobody was able to deliver a better program that year without falls and/or significantly under-rotated jumps according to the lax standards of the time.

I think it seems "minimalist" compared with Kwan's own previous programs (at least until 2001), but if you compare it with most others skating that season, it seems like a masterpiece.

I thought I did

 

[On My Own]

I thought I did

I understood it differently I guess. I think even if everyone else skated their choreography cleanly, I would still give Kwan the best artistic mark that season. As in there just wasn't a better program at all, falls or no. (which might be the unpopular opinion meant for the thread, of course)

 

[bardtoob]

I understood it differently I guess. I think even if everyone else skated their choreography cleanly, I would still give Kwan the best artistic mark that season. As in there just wasn't a better program at all, falls or no. (which might be the unpopular opinion meant for the thread, of course)

I don't know that Kwan's program would have held up against a clean program from Cohen in the judges eyes, given that she won two GP events and the GPF with less than perfect programs.

Sasha Cohen - 2003 Grand Prix Final - Long Program 2

Music: Piano Concerto No.2 by Rachmaninoff

www.youtube.com

 

[VGThuy]

I don't know that Kwan's program would have held up against a clean program from Cohen in the judges eyes, given that she won two GP events and the GPF with less than perfect programs.

Sasha Cohen - 2003 Grand Prix Final - Long Program 2

Music: Piano Concerto No.2 by Rachmaninoff

www.youtube.com

Well, Kwan didn’t compete in the same GP events or the GPF that year. Kwan won her GP and that Pro-Am with less-than-perfect program that was made at the last minute. Also, in the qualification round at Worlds, Kwan, Sokolova, and Cohen skated in the same QR group and all three skated cleanly (yes, even Cohen*), and the three placed in the order I just posted.

*in a post-Worlds statement, Cohen blamed losing out on the bronze at Worlds due to placing third in the more difficult qualifying round and that Fumie Suguri was lucky to win her easier one. Cohen forgot about her fall in the SP where she placed 6th and Suguri had placed 3rd, I guess.

 

[On My Own]

I don't know that Kwan's program would have held up against a clean program from Cohen in the judges eyes, given that she won two GP events and the GPF with less than perfect programs.

Sasha Cohen - 2003 Grand Prix Final - Long Program 2

Music: Piano Concerto No.2 by Rachmaninoff

www.youtube.com

I don't know how the politics of the event would have gone I guess. And I don't know what the judges would have ended up valuing more. Personally, I thought Kwan's program was better paced, her edging was without a doubt better, and she was, to me, a much more confident performer at this stage. Her musicality was also superior to me, but I suppose that's much more subjective. Cohen had better positions and slightly larger jumps, but that's it. (although I loved Kwan's layback more in terms of interpretation)

The SP was also better to me, her speed during the spiral was great IIRC. IDK whether it was counted as a technical aspect during this point or not (well it was a required element, so I'm guessing yes - same for the steps, done much better technically speaking).

In CoP terms, I have to say, I adored Kwan's exits out of her 3Lz during this year and the next. In my book, holding that edge and that exit position must be so much harder than the random "transitions" that happen now, even in the men's field.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

In CoP terms, I have to say, I adored Kwan's exits out of her 3Lz during this year and the next. In my book, holding that edge and that exit position must be so much harder than the random "transitions" that happen now, even in the men's field.

I agree. IJS rewards busyness. I couldn`t figure out how they "score" these beautiful lines, deep edges and held positions. It takes skill and strength. GOE and PCS capture some of this but in the end the more stuff you have the more points you get.

 

[On My Own]

I agree. IJS rewards busyness. I couldn`t figure out how they "score" these beautiful lines, deep edges and held positions. It takes skill and strength. GOE and PCS capture some of this but in the end the more stuff you have the more points you get.

It used to still happen in Kim Yuna days with women's skating at least. I think the most "difficult" thing I remember her doing out of her jumps is a three turn connected to an inside spread eagle, or just a simple choctaw, at times. Men's skating... I don't think people will like it if I said the problems came in with the Chan overstuffing his programs with transitions, lol. Boredom inducing, despite doing 'so much'.

 

[VGThuy]

It used to still happen in Kim Yuna days with women's skating at least. I think the most difficult thing I remember her doing out of her jumps is a three turn connected to an inside spread eagle, or just a simple choctaw, at times. Men's skating... I don't think people will like it if I said the problems came in with the Chan overstuffing his programs with transitions, lol. Boredom inducing, despite doing 'so much'.

I think as Chan got older, the programs were better performed while still having those transitions. But Chan actually was able to make those programs smooth and feel like the moves were just weaving in-and-out. What programs can look like now is like some comedian did a parody exaggerating the worst parts of making jam-packed routines.

 

[peibeck]

I agree. IJS rewards busyness. I couldn`t figure out how they "score" these beautiful lines, deep edges and held positions. It takes skill and strength. GOE and PCS capture some of this but in the end the more stuff you have the more points you get.

And yet they still overscored Plushenko who basically did little except blow kisses at the judges and flailing footwork between a lot of crossovers between his jumps.

 

[On My Own]

Plushenko's skating came at a time when the judges and the coaches/skaters hadn't figured CoP out yet. However, if we're talking about overscoring with little in between, then there are plenty of examples over the years of skaters who coasted off reputation and consistency of jumps, and not just Russian.

 

[Fiero425]

And yet they still overscored Plushenko who basically did little except blow kisses at the judges and flailing footwork between a lot of crossovers between his jumps.

Plushy learned from the best! Alexi Urmanov skated for the judges not the crowd! He played it up & won many times!

 

[VGThuy]

Skating fast on flats and emoting with grand gestures was marketed as a “style” that warranted at least a 5.8 in “artistic impression” if you backed it up with a history of ballet and “artistic culture”.

 

[On My Own]

That explains quite a bit.

 

[bardtoob]

Also, in the qualification round at Worlds, Kwan, Sokolova, and Cohen skated in the same QR group and all three skated cleanly (yes, even Cohen*), and the three placed in the order I just posted.

Can we say Cohen skated "cleanish". She had to change which jump to do the combo on and almost ate it doing basic crossovers around a corner, but it is probably the closest to "clean" for her. As you said, she saved her major problems for the short program that competition ...

 

[On My Own]

Can we say Cohen skated "cleanish". She had to change which jump to do the combo on and almost ate it doing basic crossovers around a corner, but it is probably the closest to "clean" for her. As you said, she saved her major problems for the short program that competition ...

She was clean at a fluff competition.

 

[bardtoob]

She was clean at a fluff competition.

If you have a link, that would be great!

I would have loved to have seen her do better, but she did have a good career.

 

[tony]

If you have a link, that would be great!

I would have loved to have seen her do better, but she did have a good career.

Sasha Cohen - 2004 Marshalls "Swan Lake"

www.youtube.com

 

[On My Own]

If you have a link, that would be great!

I would have loved to have seen her do better, but she did have a good career.

Sasha Cohen - 2004 Marshalls "Swan Lake"

youtu.be

 

[Marco]

I don't know that Kwan's program would have held up against a clean program from Cohen in the judges eyes, given that she won two GP events and the GPF with less than perfect programs.

Sasha Cohen - 2003 Grand Prix Final - Long Program 2

Music: Piano Concerto No.2 by Rachmaninoff

www.youtube.com

Besides the judging at 2003 Worlds QR, I feel it was still the pecking order that season, both nationally and internationally, to have Kwan ahead of Cohen (if both were to go clean).

The tide didn't really turn until the next season. Cohen was again the top American at the GPs (and Kwan skipping the GPs again) that I almost felt like all judges had a secret meeting some time before the GPF and voted to have Cohen ahead of Kwan and be the destined champion that season both nationally and internationally. Probably because Cohen was more the money maker for the ISU and was on a upward trajectory. And then GPF and Nationals happened. Still, it was too late to jump off the Cohen bandwagon. Kwan was hit with a pedestrian time penalty at Worlds and was placed behind Ando FFS. The Worlds podium that year was accurate but for me, Kwan showed everyone who the true Kween was with how she handled the streaker in the free skate. All these years I keep wondering what would happen if that guy had interrupted Cohen instead.

 

[bardtoob]

The tide didn't really turn until the next season. Cohen was again the top American at the GPs (and Kwan skipping the GPs again) that I almost felt like all judges had a secret meeting some time before the GPF and voted to have Cohen ahead of Kwan and be the destined champion that season both nationally and internationally. Probably because Cohen was more the money maker for the ISU and was on a upward trajectory.

This seems to go well with the sentiment coming from the ISU at the time.

Skaters face sanctions

Memo threatens those who pull out of events with a ban from top competitions

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[bardtoob]

A Flip jump with a whole blade pick, that is a so-called "Floop", is actually a Loop jump from a crossover entrance.

A Lutz jump with a whole blade pick is actually a Loop jump from a cross roll or circle eight entrance.

There. I said it.

 

[Lanie]

I think Sasha Cohen was totally hosed at 2005 Worlds in Moscow. Imo had it been anywhere else she'd have won.

 

[VGThuy]

I think Sasha Cohen was totally hosed at 2005 Worlds in Moscow. Imo had it been anywhere else she'd have won.

Now, that’s a good unpopular opinion!

From that Worlds, mine is that Michelle Kwan didn’t do that badly at 2005 Worlds considering it was her first time competing under IJS and she fell, double-footed a triple, and didn’t maximize her program content to get the higher levels on elements. She only lost to three other skaters and had beaten one of those in the SP and LP.

 

[On My Own]

I don't know if this is unpopular, but fs scoring is looking more and more like 6.0, becoming particularly bad during the 2021-22 season, and it's looking like it's at its worst this season so far...

There's really no reason left for the CoP to exist, since neither does it encourage pleasing skating, nor are the judges capable of using it to reward even technical skating that isn't coming from ISU favourites.

They need to at least bring steps into solo jump back for the SP... I really don't need yet another awful "4Lz" in men's skating, when neither is it done with a proper take-off and great amplitude, nor does it contain any other redeeming factor like transitions into or out of it.

 

[On My Own]

Now, that’s a good unpopular opinion!

I don't remember how Slutskaya skated technically anymore (is this where she did three 3Lo in the LP?), but in terms of presentation, I'd still have gone with Cohen, despite mistakes.

 

[sk9tingfan]

Now, that’s a good unpopular opinion!

From that Worlds, mine is that Michelle Kwan didn’t do that badly at 2005 Worlds considering it was her first time competing under IJS and she fell, double-footed a triple, and didn’t maximize her program content to get the higher levels on elements. She only lost to three other skaters and had beaten one of those in the SP and LP.

If I remember, at this point she had a labrum tear. At the Agganis arena soap fest the following fall, she displayed what I believe the round moon face of steroid treatment to treat her condition. She didn't even look like herself.

With Aching Hip, Kwan Still Wins Hearts (Published 2005)

Michelle Kwan wins figure skating exhibition even that is voted on by fans, but is still nursing hip injury (M)

www.nytimes.com

Kwan is people's choice / Back from injury, skater wins event judged by fans

Kwan is people's choice / Back from injury, skater wins event judged by fans

www.ctinsider.com

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

OK I have never been a fan of and still don’t like skating in reverse order for the free program and world standings for the short program

Say you’re someone like Loena or Kaori, etc. and it’s almost like they are being punished to have to skate last every single time in the free program if you were lucky enough to win the short program. I don’t think that’s fair. I think it should be by draw. And to me thats more exciting!

And I’ve never been a fan of world standings for short programs. Meaning, if you’re a lesser skater with less points, you have to go first. I much prefer the system before these rules.

 

[On My Own]

And I’ve never been a fan of world standings for short programs. Meaning, if you’re a lesser skater with less points, you have to go first. I much prefer the system before these rules.

Would be stunned if this is unpopular, but take my hearty like for this.

 

[Marco]

I think Sasha Cohen was totally hosed at 2005 Worlds in Moscow. Imo had it been anywhere else she'd have won.

Slutskaya messed up both her combo jump and combo spin in the short (supposedly the two most valuable elements). Besides a 3rd 3loop that didn't count, Slutskaya absolutely laboured through the last minute and a half of her free program and yet the scores of those last few elements and the PCS were not affected. I don't see how she was so much (or at all) ahead of Cohen, or even Kwan and Kostner with errors whom I think still kept themselves together better than Slutskaya did.

It's one of those comps that I felt no one won, but Slutskaya was just the least loser with the right passport.

 

[Private Citizen]

Unpopular opinion: I love the 80s rhythm dance . Even bad ice dance is good with this rhythm. I especially love Smart and Dieck's Blondie rhythm dance and the whole packaging. I love all of the music and costumes and ridiculous makeup, especially Guignard and Fabbri's. I've mostly stopped watching ice dance, but an 80s rhythm dance is exactly the way to get me back. Sorry for the purists, but I dig it. No set pattern, no problem. The man can do the woman's steps and the woman can do the man's and anything goes? I guess I've found one place in life where I'm willing to be woke .