Unpopular Opinions

[Holy Headband]

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but figure skating is in desperate need of an informed and informative yet engaging podcast. The other day I tuned into TSL's latest episode because I was playing video games and needed something to listen to in the background, but I must have forgotten what the hosts are like because the amount of mean bullshitting and pettiness without substance really took me by surprise. The stuff about mismatched ice dance couples and short men was so old-school it made me cringe. Then today I listened to a couple of Polina Edmunds's JGP recaps and there was nothing there apart from sports betting ads and her counting off bad lutz takeoffs? She doesn't talk about anything other than jump tech and missed edge calls, and even when she tries to give an overall assessment of a skater's performance, it's perfunctory, unconvincing and clearly filtered through her opinion of their jumps. She sounds like she still thinks of herself as a competitive skater who refuses to be impressed by other skaters rather than an informed spectator.

Is there nothing worth listening to out there?

 

[On My Own]

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but figure skating is in desperate need of an informed and informative yet engaging podcast.

I think people overestimate how much this really matters.

Is there nothing worth listening to out there?

No - and that includes the overwhelming majority of the commentary on it.

 

[Holy Headband]

I think people overestimate how much this really matters.

It matters to me! I want good content for ME.

 

[On My Own]

It matters to me! I want good content!

33k people follow TSL on twitter, and 52k follow them on YT. It might be said you're the problem.

I think you're overestimating how much of this matters. Most people watch skating for drama, it is constantly amusing to see people who want ~ intellectual ~ analysis over it. I can barely name anything remotely artistic I've seen in the past 10 years. In a way, Edmunds' podcast sounds perfect, because jumps are what matter most, and there are at least some people with good jumps out there.

 

[skateboy]

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but figure skating is in desperate need of an informed and informative yet engaging podcast. The other day I tuned into TSL's latest episode because I was playing video games and needed something to listen to in the background, but I must have forgotten what the hosts are like because the amount of mean bullshitting and pettiness without substance really took me by surprise. The stuff about mismatched ice dance couples and short men was so old-school it made me cringe.

I do miss the early days of TSL, when Jenny Kirk was there to comment from an elite competitor's perspective, and they had fascinating interviews with Frank Carroll and other icons of the sport.

For me, it spiraled downhill the moment Jonathan Beyer took Jenny's place and it looks to have only gotten worse since then.

 

[Wyliefan]

33k people follow TSL on twitter, and 52k follow them on YT. It might be said you're the problem.

Fifty-two thousand people are perfectly capable of being wrong.

 

[On My Own]

Fifty-two thousand people are perfectly capable of being wrong.

And the people who are right are the ones we say are right?

Is it better to view figure skating as some very serious sport worth investing time into analysing it? To me, it's like saying Harry Potter deserves to be read critically.

 

[tony]

FSU is a perfect example of the fandom when it comes to skating - some people watch each and every event but don't care to learn the intricacies to the rules, they don't fully understand the judging system, and they like talking about costuming and music more than the elements themselves. And again, this is coming from people who watch a whole lot of skating. How many people really know the first thing about ice dance rules, for example? This board also skews older and most of us have said the Twitter/X system of posting just isn't it-- but for many others, it is, complete with the 'omg x skater is my savior and they can do no wrong and I wrote a new poem every day about how much I love them' types of messages.

But skating is a dramatic sport, people like the dramatics and BTS stuff, and they always have. People like the drama in just about every facet of popular culture or sport. TSL might be very negative about a lot of the skating, but I find a lot of the same stuff here, honestly.

I'm a total technician when it comes to the sport, and I don't exactly hide it. Underrotations, prerotations, wrong edges, the ridiculous 'q' call, technical panels being selective or looking the other way-- all of that drives me crazy sometimes. Not everyone likes when I point out these deficiencies for their favorite skaters, even though I spread the complaints pretty thoroughly There's always going to be someone mad at what is or isn't being said in skating.

 

[Holy Headband]

I'm a total technician when it comes to the sport, and I don't exactly hide it. Underrotations, prerotations, wrong edges, the ridiculous 'q' call, technical panels being selective or looking the other way-- all of that drives me crazy sometimes. Not everyone likes when I point out these deficiencies for their favorite skaters, even though I spread the complaints pretty thoroughly There's always going to be someone mad at what is or isn't being said in skating.

I wasn't talking about you but about Polina Edmunds's podcast, which is very different from a forum discussion of jumping technique and judging. Her 'competition recaps' are just a monotone list of jump issues with little to zero discussion of footwork, spins, performance or choreo, and no positive commentary about the jumps skaters performed well either (with some rare exceptions, usually when she's talking about an American skater).

I'm a non-technical fan, but I've been watching figure skating long enough to recognise a flat or inside lutz edge too. I also agree with her that pre-rotations need to be punished in the rulebook and on the ice. It's just that I find no joy in listening to her drone on and on about all the issues she identified in a young skater's jumps before moving on to the next one. Her selective coverage gives a distorted perspective of the skating events she covers, making absolute powerhouses like (for example) Jia Shin sound mediocre because she doesn't talk about what they did do right at all and instead reduces their entire performance to 2-3 issues that should have or did result in reduced BV and capped GOE but only accounted for a fraction of the final score.

In any case, the information she focuses on (this or that skater needs to fix their flutz) is already being discussed by fans, as you yourself say. When I decide to listen to a podcast, I'd like to hear something more.

 

[Sylvia]

I assume Polina would appreciate hearing constructive criticism from listeners: https://www.instagram.com/theironbutterflypod/

I enjoyed her most recent conversation with Bradie.

 

[tony]

I wasn't talking about you but about Polina Edmunds's podcast, which is very different from a forum discussion of jumping technique and judging. Her 'competition recaps' are just a monotone list of jump issues with little to zero discussion of footwork, spins, performance or choreo, and no positive commentary about the jumps skaters performed well either (with some rare exceptions, usually when she's talking about an American skater).

I'm a non-technical fan, but I've been watching figure skating long enough to recognise a flat or inside lutz edge too. I also agree with her that pre-rotations need to be punished in the rulebook and on the ice. It's just that I find no joy in listening to her drone on and on about all the issues she identified in a young skater's jumps before moving on to the next one. Her selective coverage gives a distorted perspective of the skating events she covers, making absolute powerhouses like (for example) Jia Shin sound mediocre because she doesn't talk about what they did do right at all and instead reduces their entire performance to 2-3 issues that should have or did result in reduced BV and capped GOE but only accounted for a fraction of the final score.

In any case, the information she focuses on (this or that skater needs to fix their flutz) is already being discussed by fans, as you yourself say. When I decide to listen to a podcast, I'd like to hear something more.

I knew it wasn't in reference to me, but I was just giving the example that technique and the application of the rules as written is something I drone on and on about--- and not everyone likes that here, or they think I'm being selective against their favorite skater(s). The technique issue is a tricky one, because when 'e' and '<' calls sneak in over the safe ! and q calls, then the points can really change massively. There was a quad Shoma Uno did at Worlds that was very clearly not rotated, and I think if they dinged him with the correct underrotation on it, matched with the big drop in GOE, he would've lost gold.

Everyone has things that they focus on and things that bother them more than the next person-- I couldn't care less about the make-up or costuming or whether the skater has their hair in a ponytail 99% of the time, but others really care about those choices.

There are podcasts with differing levels of knowledge and focus of the sport, so if Edmunds doesn't do it for you, there are certainly other approaches. But TSL continues to lead the way by a long shot and a lot of the historical interviews (especially these, it's very clear Dave puts in the work) and addressing of bigger issues in skating are quite good.

 

[VGThuy]

I'd say those who have instantly reacted to @Holy Headband's post are making arguments as to why the expressed opinion posted belongs in this specific thread.

That said, those numbers for TSL aren't big, like at all. But I guess it's big for figure skating online fandom to where TSL is probably the no. 1 fandom commentary channel, which certainly says something.

 

[On My Own]

Her 'competition recaps' are just a monotone list of jump issues with little to zero discussion of footwork, spins, performance or choreo, and no positive commentary about the jumps skaters performed well either (with some rare exceptions, usually when she's talking about an American skater).

I'm never listening to her podcast - but I see no way to discuss spins, footworks technically on a podcast without sounding equally boring, if not worse.

What will they say? "They should arch their back a bit better on the layback so the judges might give them more GOE"?

Tech issues with those elements themselves are completely subjective (unless we're talking lower level skaters), and even with jumps I find it funny when people talk about underrotations as if those aren't subject to camera angles and frame rates.

And figure skaters lack the ability to critically analyse performance and choreography for it to at all be worth picking apart.

I can 100% see why TSL, Paola La, and Fran were the most popular. It's the drama and the “tea", and they can provide pointless back stories and history to the sport (TSL extensively so). Of course they're biased.

 

[Holy Headband]

I knew it wasn't in reference to me, but I was just giving the example that technique and the application of the rules as written is something I drone on and on about--- and not everyone likes that here, or they think I'm being selective against their favorite skater(s). The technique issue is a tricky one, because when 'e' and '<' calls sneak in over the safe ! and q calls, then the points can really change massively. There was a quad Shoma Uno did at Worlds that was very clearly not rotated, and I think if they dinged him with the correct underrotation on it, matched with the big drop in GOE, he would've lost gold.

Everyone has things that they focus on and things that bother them more than the next person-- I couldn't care less about the make-up or costuming or whether the skater has their hair in a ponytail 99% of the time, but others really care about those choices.

There are podcasts with differing levels of knowledge and focus of the sport, so if Edmunds doesn't do it for you, there are certainly other approaches. But TSL continues to lead the way by a long shot and a lot of the historical interviews (especially these, it's very clear Dave puts in the work) and addressing of bigger issues in skating are quite good.

That's exactly the kind of wider-view discussion that Edmunds does not engage in ever. She doesn't provide a comparative analysis of skaters or review the sum total of their performance either.

In any case, I guess it really is an unpopular opinion to say that both malicious digs at skaters and endless recitation of jump tech notes are boring to listen to.

 

[Sylvia]

In any case, I guess it really is an unpopular opinion to say that both malicious digs at skaters and endless recitation of jump tech notes are boring to listen to.

FWIW, I don't think that's an unpopular opinion.

 

[olympic]

I think I’m more surprised that you have watched Tosca or Bolero more.

I like the drama of Tosca musically speaking. But I also didn't like MK's program to that, and that would not necessarily be an unpopular opinion. Thus, I did not list it in this thread.

I liked MK's IJS friendly 3-jump combo in Bolero, and her jumps looked strong I think due to some time w/ RA at that point. Her 3F was WOW.

 

[VGThuy]

I like the drama of Tosca musically speaking. But I also didn't like MK's program to that, and that would not necessarily be an unpopular opinion. Thus, I did not list it in this thread.

I liked MK's IJS friendly 3-jump combo in Bolero, and her jumps looked strong I think due to some time w/ RA at that point. Her 3F was WOW.

You’re so right about all of this. When I did a thread encouraging people to grade every program of any skater of their choosing, when I did Michelle Kwan, for Tosca, I said something about how good it was that Michelle Kwan skated like Michelle Kwan because otherwise…. I think Bolero always had potential and she was looking stronger and challenging herself with the elements. It was just her lack of doing any international competition under the IJS prior to Worlds showed. The program also never settled as it kept changing and wasn’t the same at every competition she did that season (it was kind of like she gave us four LPs). But overall, third in the SP and LP for her very first (and only) IJS competition is not bad at all.

 

[Marco]

Aranjuez was refreshing for Kwan because her other free skates (before and after) were mostly intense and dramatic. The exceptions were Lyra and Song of the Black Swan but they were slower. Aranjuez was one of her fewer uplifting competitive programs that really showcased her flow. It wasn't as complex as her earlier programs but it highlighted a different side / strength for her. It's like after the Olympic burden and heartbreak she finally broke free. The final split falling leaf into spread eagle smiled - the same way the spread eagle in Rondo smiled.

With Tosca though, she repeated the formula of Aranjuez with the simplistic elements and program and the repetitive music, but with more dramatic music it didn't give the same impact. It was my least favorite of her programs.

With Bolero, her injury had worsened and she was struggling to cope with COP elements, so she kept changing things around and never got things right. Which was a shame because I liked its debut and saw potential from it since, but it never really landed at a comfortable version for her. The only thing I liked about this program at the end was her attempt to have some spin features, compared with the simple ones from Aranjuez and Tosca.

 

[tony]

Aranjuez was refreshing for Kwan because her other free skates (before and after) were mostly intense and dramatic. The exceptions were Lyra and Song of the Black Swan but they were slower. Aranjuez was one of her fewer uplifting competitive programs that really showcased her flow. It wasn't as complex as her earlier programs but it highlighted a different side / strength for her. It's like after the Olympic burden and heartbreak she finally broke free. The final split falling leaf into spread eagle smiled - the same way the spread eagle in Rondo smiled.

With Tosca though, she repeated the formula of Aranjuez with the simplistic elements and program and the repetitive music, but with more dramatic music it didn't give the same impact. It was my least favorite of her programs.

Completely agree on all counts. I think Aranjuez had a spark and that lightness you speak of, and I remember saying to my mom "that was the last jump!" as she landed the 3Lz at Worlds, just a split second before Dick Button said the same thing and the entire audience went wild. The program choreographically was a bunch of nothing, but the highlights and the element placements really worked.

Tosca, on the other hand, just never did it for me. I know some people name her Nationals performance as one of her all-time greats but my reaction was just 'meh' that whole season. I think she's really lucky she was on the podium at that Worlds, with all those 6.0's being thrown out like candy. Suguri was so amazing, but coming from way back in the standings following qualifying.

With Bolero, her injury had worsened and she was struggling to cope with COP elements, so she kept changing things around and never got things right. Which was a shame because I liked its debut and saw potential from it since, but it never really landed at a comfortable version for her. The only thing I liked about this program at the end was her attempt to have some spin features, compared with the simple ones from Aranjuez and Tosca.

Bolero's first iteration at Campbells or whatever it was showed potential but the signs were already there that she was retaining the minimal choreography (except the footwork, which she quite nearly fell on there). I think a lot of people-- myself included-- were entranced by some of her hand and arm movement 'choreo'. I remember Button tore her apart for the lack of choreography in the program at the winter USFSA cheesefest, or maybe even the one in the spring. It was

 

[once_upon]

It's unpopular-but I don't remember programs from year to year. Unless I see it a second season and sometimes not then.

I may and do recognize similar moves or program components used by choreographers. Or someone who seems to skate the same program as someone like Michelle.

But I really don't remember programs.from previous years. I just watch skating for the joy it brings me.

 

[Wyliefan]

I remember programs but not elements. People will complain about a team using the same lifts two or three seasons in a row, and I'm like "Sure, if you say so."

 

[Tinycities]

I do miss the early days of TSL, when Jenny Kirk was there to comment from an elite competitor's perspective, and they had fascinating interviews with Frank Carroll and other icons of the sport.

For me, it spiraled downhill the moment Jonathan Beyer took Jenny's place and it looks to have only gotten worse since then.

If it’s at all of interest, Jenny Kirk still hosts their TSL Live chats/shows once or twice a week.

 

[Marco]

Bolero's first iteration at Campbells or whatever it was showed potential but the signs were already there that she was retaining the minimal choreography (except the footwork, which she quite nearly fell on there). I think a lot of people-- myself included-- were entranced by some of her hand and arm movement 'choreo'. I remember Button tore her apart for the lack of choreography in the program at the winter USFSA cheesefest, or maybe even the one in the spring. It was

Well under IJS the two sequences were mandated, the spirals had time requirements and the spins had basic requirements too. So whatever extra time she had had to go into these elements. She DID fall on the footwork at Campbell Classics but managed all the triples just fine.

I used to rewatch her debut to Bolero (and Aranjuez Nationals version) but imagining transitions in and out of those jumps instead of pure crossovers. But to be fair I believe one of the reasons she was no longer doing entrances or choreography into jumps because post-SLC, she had shifted focus on jump size and stability. Her jumps were quite obviously bigger since 2003. I also didn't want to mention her injury over and over, but from what I know it got quite bad by 2005.

I also remember Button slamming her on empty choreography and lack of 3/3s which was fair but somewhat ironic because it was basically the same in 2003 and 2004.

 

[VGThuy]

Completely agree on all counts. I think Aranjuez had a spark and that lightness you speak of, and I remember saying to my mom "that was the last jump!" as she landed the 3Lz at Worlds, just a split second before Dick Button said the same thing and the entire audience went wild. The program choreographically was a bunch of nothing, but the highlights and the element placements really worked.

Tosca, on the other hand, just never did it for me. I know some people name her Nationals performance as one of her all-time greats but my reaction was just 'meh' that whole season. I think she's really lucky she was on the podium at that Worlds, with all those 6.0's being thrown out like candy. Suguri was so amazing, but coming from way back in the standings following qualifying.

Bolero's first iteration at Campbells or whatever it was showed potential but the signs were already there that she was retaining the minimal choreography (except the footwork, which she quite nearly fell on there). I think a lot of people-- myself included-- were entranced by some of her hand and arm movement 'choreo'. I remember Button tore her apart for the lack of choreography in the program at the winter USFSA cheesefest, or maybe even the one in the spring. It was

It was the post-2005 Worlds cheesefest where she won pretty handedly. But Dick was super critical to the point where some YouTubers uploaded videos of the performance muting his commentary. Then she went too far the other way by trying 6-to-7 triple performance on a long Champions on Ice Tour that summer to prepare for the Olympic season, and we saw what happened there.

Regarding Bolero, my favorite version was the December Marshall’s cheesefest where it was choreographically-dense (for her at the time and especially compared to the other versions and Aranjuez and Tosca), and had a more difficult footwork sequence than the one she had at Campbells in October where she nearly fell. The problem was that because it had more going on and she was working on longer and more difficult spin positions, that version looked like work and she needed much more practice to give it more of that ease of movement she was known for. Then that Nationals version happened and it was watered down again, and then the Worlds version happened and it looked like a different program but still streamlined the way Aranjuez and Tosca were.

To me, Aranjuez worked because like everybody else said… it was lighter and freer and Kwan looked like she was enjoying taking the season as opportunities came and going with the flow. She unexpectedly won the first pro-am of the season, then because Sarah Hughes dropped out of Skate America, Kwan came in as a last minute replacement headlining host competitor, and won there with an exciting new SP (unlike the season prior where she just seemed behind and distracted). The way the GP series went, Kwan actually qualified for the GPF by just winning one competition. Then Nationals happened and then Worlds. It was just her season. All of the above made it feel like she didn’t have the pressure of Olympic build up and expectations, and was kind of unstoppable.

Also, her jumps looked light and bigger than they did in the 2001-02 season (watching her that season, by the second half of it, she looked physically weaker and her jumps looked smaller than usual). Her spins were basic but it really looked like she was rebuilding from the ground up to improve her line and positions there and her non-Lori programs had her moving more free and natural and she really let it rip with that then novel Morosovian footwork (but hers were “edgy” compared to the more “toe-picky” ones he gave Cohen and Yagudin at the time. That said, by Tosca, she lost a little too much discipline with her upper body and line.

 

[On My Own]

Aranjuez was refreshing for Kwan because her other free skates (before and after) were mostly intense and dramatic.

I didn't think Ariane, Scheherazade, or the Red Violin were intense and dramatic, I guess.

And I like Aranjuez, because apparently unlike the others here, I liked the actual choreography. For Tosca, too.

 

[olympic]

See. My MK Aranjuez opinion is unpopular -> proper thread!

 

[VGThuy]

See. My MK Aranjuez opinion is unpopular -> proper thread!

You understood the assignment. Just forgive my Kwaniac coming out. It hasn’t had much opportunity to come out in the past two decades,

 

[On My Own]

(I hate Shae Lynn Bourne's choreography and music selection)

 

[bardtoob]

Aranjuez was a minimalist program Michelle made up with her sister in August because USFSA begged her to continue to compete due to their heir apparents, including the new Olympic Champion, not have "it", which was upsetting sponsors.

On the other hand, nobody was able to deliver a better program that year without falls and/or significantly under-rotated jumps according to the lax standards of the time.

 

[On My Own]

Aranjuez was a minimalist program Michelle made up with her sister in August

I liked it though, it showed a lot that matters in skating - secure edges, good positioning, musical timing, good placement of elements... I think it seems "minimalist" compared with Kwan's own previous programs (at least until 2001), but if you compare it with most others skating that season, it seems like a masterpiece.