Slate | The Once Unthinkable Revolution Coming to Figure Skating

[overedge]

A 3-turn or a C-step are the accepted ways to enter this jump and have been for decades. You have no common sense, so on ignore you go.

Yes, and I'm aware of several coaches who pretty much stopped teaching the 3-turn entry some time after figures were eliminated. They felt that most kids who hadn't done figures didn't have a strong enough 3-turn to get a good reliable takeoff for the jump.

 

[her grace]

I learned my flip both ways, from a mohawk and from a 3-turn. What I find interesting when watching today is that I learned toe loops from a right inside 3-turn, and most people now do a left outside 3-turn and then step onto their right foot before picking.

 

[tony]

I learned my flip both ways, from a mohawk and from a 3-turn. What I find interesting when watching today is that I learned toe loops from a right inside 3-turn, and most people now do a left outside 3-turn and then step onto their right foot before picking.

I learned flip (up to double) from a 3-turn only, and my basics were nothing to write home about. I felt it was easier to go around a little bit of a curve into it (a la Eldredge) than a straight line, but I practiced both entries. I also did toe loop from a right inside 3-turn, but my first clean double toes were actually landed on the end of a single Axel. I think I'd have real trouble doing the 'new'(er) technique you speak of, having to shift the body weight and reset as they do.

 

[VGThuy]

Is that why some of Michelle Kwan’s triple toe loops were called “Walleys”?

 

[tony]

Is that why some of Michelle Kwan’s triple toe loops were called “Walleys”?

Yes, it was considered a 'different' jump for a while in the history of skating based on the entry edges, and I know Christopher Bowman was sure to point out every single instance of them. I think Dick Button did it every once in a while, too, but Bowman did it every time.

 

[her grace]

Is that why some of Michelle Kwan’s triple toe loops were called “Walleys”?

No, a [toe] walley is technically a different jump. It's like the difference between a flip/lutz: right picking foot with one on inside edge, and other one on outside edge. Toe loop is back outside edge and [toe] walley is back inside edge to left picking foot. The scoring system considers them the same jump (and hardly anyone does Walleys [toe or otherwise]).

Didn't Zayak's program full of 3ts include [toe] Walleys as some of them?

 

[On My Own]

I learned my flip both ways, from a mohawk and from a 3-turn. What I find interesting when watching today is that I learned toe loops from a right inside 3-turn, and most people now do a left outside 3-turn and then step onto their right foot before picking.

To illustrate.

1988

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vs

2011

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youtu.be

There are indeed 3 turn flips currently, and always have been. And I think it's true most are taught with both, and depends on preference? At least you always see the Japanese women attempting it off a mohawk, while I think most Korean skaters do it with 3 turn.

 

[On My Own]

I learned flip (up to double) from a 3-turn only, and my basics were nothing to write home about. I felt it was easier to go around a little bit of a curve into it (a la Eldredge) than a straight line, but I practiced both entries.

Right, because it probably depends on your coach, and also your body type, personal preference, timing, spring, etc, for you to determine what's best for you. And because "technique" doesn't magically mean everything and isn't one-size-fits-all. And no coach in the world is reading from the same "textbook" which doesn't actually exist in the first place.

A strange thing that we really need to mention on a skating forum, apparently. Not aimed at you, but yeah.

 

[gkelly]

Is that why some of Michelle Kwan’s triple toe loops were called “Walleys”?

Yes, it was considered a 'different' jump for a while in the history of skating based on the entry edges, and I know Christopher Bowman was sure to point out every single instance of them. I think Dick Button did it every once in a while, too, but Bowman did it every time.

No, a walley is a different jump. It's like the difference between a flip/lutz: right picking foot with one on inside edge, and other one on outside edge. Toe loop is back outside edge and walley is back inside edge from left picking foot. The scoring system considers them the same jump (and hardly anyone does Walleys).

Didn't Zayak's program full of 3ts include Walleys as some of them?

For all of the above mention of "Walleys," please correct the usage to TOE Walley.

The relation between toe walley and walley is the same as the relation between toe loop and loop. You wouldn't refer to toe loops as "loops" for short, probably not even in the context of discussing the difference between toe loops and toe walleys, so please do not refer to toe walleys as walleys for short.

Walley is an edge jump that takes off the back inside edge. We see single walleys now and then as a connecting move -- it is not a "listed jump" in the IJS scale of values.

Toe walleys, like toe loops, are toe jumps.

Toe walley would generally be done by turning a FO three and then putting the other foot down onto an inside edge rather than an outside edge as for a toe loop from the FO three entry. In either case, the skater would then pick with the now-free foot.

However, most examples we see in competition the skater actually did step onto a back outside edge, so it really was a toe loop after all.

Hence the decision early in the history of the Zayak rule to consider toe walley and toe loop the same jump for purposes of allowed repetitions.

I don't know offhand of a good example of a true triple toe walley.

Here is a clear example of a single toe walley off an obvious inside edge, without a turn preceding.

And here is a video showing half toe walley, single toe walley (with the preceding three turn and change of foot, but shallow/unclear takeoff edge), and single walley, to show the difference between toe walley and walley.

 

[her grace]

For all of the above mention of "Walleys," please correct the usage to TOE Walley.

Sure, I'll update it. I didn't want to make the conversation more confusing than it already can be for non-skaters.

 

[On My Own]

And here is a video showing half toe walley, single toe walley (with the preceding three turn and change of foot, but shallow/unclear takeoff edge), and single walley, to show the difference between toe walley and walley.

Always thought walleys look terrible, but also, how did you find it? She calls it "wallie", did it really turn up in the search?

 

[On My Own]

I don't know offhand of a good example of a true triple toe walley.

Well it's probably more difficult to do than 3Lz. Also, never even saw a "toeless lutz" even though it's supposed to exist.

 

[gkelly]

Always thought walleys look terrible, but also, how did you find it? She calls it "wallie", did it really turn up in the search?

It's correctly spelled "walley" after the inventor, Nathaniel Walley.

If you search youtube for "walley jump" you can find several videos demonstrating the (single) jump.

When I have more time, maybe in a more relevant thread, I could find some good examples of single walleys in elite programs.

 

[tony]

Kerrigan 93 LP:

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Czako 94 LP (and surely she's done it elsewhere):

Krisztina Czakó Karl Schäfer Memorial 1993 free skating

Krisztina Czakó Karl Schäfer Memorial 1993 free skating

www.youtube.com

 

[Sylvia]

New thread :

toe walley vs. toe loop; walleys

There are toe walley threads in the Archives so here's a new thread. :) It's correctly spelled "walley" after the inventor, Nathaniel Walley. If you search youtube for "walley jump" you can find several videos demonstrating the (single) jump. When I have more time, maybe in a more relevant...

www.fsuniverse.net

 

[VGThuy]

For all of the above mention of "Walleys," please correct the usage to TOE Walley.

The relation between toe walley and walley is the same as the relation between toe loop and loop. You wouldn't refer to toe loops as "loops" for short, probably not even in the context of discussing the difference between toe loops and toe walleys, so please do not refer to toe walleys as walleys for short.

Walley is an edge jump that takes off the back inside edge. We see single walleys now and then as a connecting move -- it is not a "listed jump" in the IJS scale of values.

Toe walleys, like toe loops, are toe jumps.

Toe walley would generally be done by turning a FO three and then putting the other foot down onto an inside edge rather than an outside edge as for a toe loop from the FO three entry. In either case, the skater would then pick with the now-free foot.

However, most examples we see in competition the skater actually did step onto a back outside edge, so it really was a toe loop after all.

Hence the decision early in the history of the Zayak rule to consider toe walley and toe loop the same jump for purposes of allowed repetitions.

I don't know offhand of a good example of a true triple toe walley.

Here is a clear example of a single toe walley off an obvious inside edge, without a turn preceding.

And here is a video showing half toe walley, single toe walley (with the preceding three turn and change of foot, but shallow/unclear takeoff edge), and single walley, to show the difference between toe walley and walley.

Sorry; didn’t mean to hit a nerve.

 

[MacMadame]

If skaters learned how to do a proper figures BO8 (as opposed to a MITF one), they would have the skills needed to avoid flutzing and learned at the earliest stages of development.

Didn't help Michelle Kwan.

 

[barbk]

Didn't help Michelle Kwan.

Bobek certainly learned and competed figures in her novice years, and she was the most noticeable flutzer out there.

 

[Enchanted]

Would it be possible to discuss the flutzes etc. in another thread.

Back to the topic. I hope Cizeron and Lambiel will find the time to choreograph a program. I’d love to see them skate together.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Yes, and I'm aware of several coaches who pretty much stopped teaching the 3-turn entry some time after figures were eliminated. They felt that most kids who hadn't done figures didn't have a strong enough 3-turn to get a good reliable takeoff for the jump.

@overedge I didn't clean up the quote well, I was responding to the other person, not you! You are fine!

 

[overedge]

@overedge I didn't clean up the quote well, I was responding to the other person, not you! You are fine!

Oh, no worries, I knew it wasn't me you were responding to. Just providing a bit more context to support what you said.

 

[Bunny Hop]

This relates to ballroom dancing, but pertinent to the original discussion in this thread:

For the first time ever, Mathew and Steve will be able to dance together at the 'Wimbledon of ballroom'

Two of Australia's top ballroom dancers say the community must move away from the 'nostalgic' gender roles of a female 'follower' and 'male' leader and reflect all relationships.

www.abc.net.au

 

[leilaofpaper]

Practice footage of Hubbell and Papadakis, courtesy of On Ice Perspectives (thanks @Jay42 for sharing)
https://www.instagram.com/p/Crp0G1RO0jX/

 

[leilaofpaper]

Seems like the pieces used are:
Why Try to Change Me Now - Fiona Apple
Work - Charlotte Day Wilson

 

[Frau Muller]

Dear Lord, noooooo!…especially the lifting part.
Conservatives are allowed to express their opinions. I want skating to thrive, not flop.

 

[tony]

Dear Lord, noooooo!…especially the lifting part.
Conservatives are allowed to express their opinions. I want skating to thrive, not flop.

Your ideas of skating thriving, as constantly evidenced by your posts, are by considering what was popular almost a half-century ago and sticking with it. Skating is thriving all over the world and it has a much bigger fan base internationally than ever before. This is not an opinion.

We’ve seen Anissina and Faiella and several other women over the years become the lifting partner, to much acclaim, and there wasn’t an issue. Why make it one now?

 

[AJ Skatefan]

Practice footage of Hubbell and Papadakis, courtesy of On Ice Perspectives (thanks @Jay42 for sharing)
https://www.instagram.com/p/Crp0G1RO0jX/

Love it!

 

[Tesla]

Practice footage of Hubbell and Papadakis, courtesy of On Ice Perspectives (thanks @Jay42 for sharing)
https://www.instagram.com/p/Crp0G1RO0jX/

Oh, that’s beautiful!

 

[MsZem]

We’ve seen Anissina and Faiella and several other women over the years become the lifting partner, to much acclaim, and there wasn’t an issue. Why make it one now?

If Sara Hurtado was able to get L4 as a lifting partner, I see no reason why other women shouldn't give it a go.

 

[leilaofpaper]

Here’s a look at a number of “reverse” lifts over the years