Slate | The Once Unthinkable Revolution Coming to Figure Skating

[alexikeguchi]

Indeed. To haul it back into the general vicinity of the original topic, Gabriella Papadakis just posted an instagram story of two female skaters (I presume ice dancers) working on an overhead lift and doing quite nicely at it for what looked to be fairly early in the process.

It's all about finding the balance points...

Absolutely. Competitive cheer teams with all girls/women manage to lift each other

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Indeed. To haul it back into the general vicinity of the original topic, Gabriella Papadakis just posted an instagram story of two female skaters (I presume ice dancers) working on an overhead lift and doing quite nicely at it for what looked to be fairly early in the process.

It's all about finding the balance points...

Ooooh, I'm looking forward to seeing that.

Female sychro skaters do group lifts all the time, and nobody bats an eyelid.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I'm reminded of the time Dan Hollander filmed Rudy Galindo launching Johnny Weir into a killer throw triple axel. Granted, Weir could already do the jump unassisted, and Galindo was a world class pair skater.

But still, it was very impressive stuff.

Johnny Weir/Rudy Galindo Throw Triple Axel

United States figure skating champions Rudy Galido and Johnny Weir perform a perfect throw triple axel during a practice session on Champions On Ice.

www.youtube.com

 

[Sylvia]

... Gabriella Papadakis just posted an instagram story of two female skaters (I presume ice dancers) working on an overhead lift and doing quite nicely at it for what looked to be fairly early in the process.

It's all about finding the balance points...

The original clip was posted on Canadian synchro coach Victoria Smith's Instagram account and she tagged Zachary Daleman as the assisting coach on the floor.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I'm reminded of the time Dan Hollander filmed Rudy Galindo launching Johnny Weir into a killer throw triple axel. Granted, Weir could already do the jump unassisted, and Galindo was a world class pair skater.

But still, it was very impressive stuff.

Johnny Weir/Rudy Galindo Throw Triple Axel

United States figure skating champions Rudy Galido and Johnny Weir perform a perfect throw triple axel during a practice session on Champions On Ice.

www.youtube.com

+ 5

 

[Orm Irian]

The original clip was posted on Canadian synchro coach Victoria Smith's Instagram account and she tagged Zachary Daleman as the assisting coach on the floor.

I'd had a vague thought that it would make a lot of sense for synchro coaches to get involved in working out how teams of two women can create lifts - I'm glad to see it's happening!

 

[VGThuy]

I think the most likely result of any sort of allowance for non-traditional pairings to compete, if that ever happens, would be if the ISU were to copy the way tennis handles doubles.

 

[ice coverage]

Indeed. To haul it back into the general vicinity of the original topic, Gabriella Papadakis just posted an instagram story of two female skaters (I presume ice dancers) working on an overhead lift and doing quite nicely at it for what looked to be fairly early in the process.

It's all about finding the balance points...

Whether or not they are ice dancers, the lifter's arms are fully extended overhead ... so I think this off-ice lift would be a precursor to something pair skaters would do? (I am not/not/not trying to diminish what is shown.)

Anyway, thanks for bringing the Instastory clip (re)posted by Papadakis to my attention:

https://www.instagram.com/stories/gabriellapapadakis/3089344993524027177/​

ETA:​

The original clip was posted on Canadian synchro coach Victoria Smith's Instagram account and she tagged Zachary Daleman as the assisting coach on the floor.

Or as Sylvia's post suggests, it's possible that they are synchro skaters.​

Also wanted to make a separate mention:

Accompanied by some of their skaters, Olga Ganicheva and Aleksey Letov are in Thailand this week to lead a seminar on singles and pairs (as mentioned by Sylvia in other threads).​

Some now-expired Instastories from the olgaalexcoaching account included brief clips of on-ice pair demos at the seminar, for which Misha Mitrofanov, Jimmy Ma, Emily Chan, and Spencer Howe were mixing and matching: Emily and Spencer demonstrated something together; Emily and Misha demonstrated a death spiral (IIRC) together; and Jimmy and Misha demonstrated a good throw jump together.​

Based on the few seconds of video, my perception was that Jimmy and Misha were not intent on making a statement -- but in light of Talia Barrington's article for Slate, I could not help thinking that as a beneficial side effect, Jimmy and Misha's demo could help plant the seeds of normalizing same-gender pair skating.​

 

[Sylvia]

Accompanied by some of their skaters, Olga Ganicheva and Aleksey Letov are in Thailand this week to lead a seminar on singles and pairs (as mentioned by Sylvia in other threads).​

Some now-expired Instastories from the olgaalexcoaching account included brief clips of on-ice pair demos, for which Misha Mitrofanov, Jimmy Ma, Emily Chan, and Spencer Howe were mixing and matching: Emily and Spencer demonstrated something together; Emily and Misha demonstrated a death spiral (IIRC) together; and Jimmy and Misha demonstrated a good throw jump together.​

Based on the few seconds of video, my perception was that Jimmy and Misha were not intent on making a statement -- but in light of Talia Barrington's article for Slate, I could not help thinking that as a beneficial side effect, their demo could help plant the seeds of normalizing same-gender pair skating.​

I thought Jimmy landed the throw double loop very well (with good flow out) but Misha lost his balance a bit after he released Jimmy.

 

[Gris]

Zhulin and Tarasova: “Let Cizeron team up with Scott Moir. I think they will be a good match. And let Cizeron and Moir compete against Papadakis and Hubbell.”

Alexander Zhulin and Tatiana Tarasova commented on the news that Gabriella Papadakis and Madison Hubbell is preparing a joint program as a way to convince members of the ISU to allow same-gender duets in pairs and ice dancing.

fs-gossips.com

Alexander Zhulin: I don’t even know what to say about this… But I would allow them to skate with whomever they want. Let Cizeron team up with Scott Moir. I think they will be a good match. And let Cizeron and Moir compete against Papadakis and Hubbell.

I apologize for bringing Zhulin here into this thread, but what a self-own. Heartbreaking-the-worst-person-you-know-just-made-a-great-point.jpg

 

[On My Own]

Heartbreaking-the-worst-person-you-know-just-made-a-great-point.jpg

Really? I think Scott Moir would be terrible with Guillaume.

Tatiana Tarasova: I wouldn’t be interested in watching it. I like classic ‘boy-girl’ pairs. All this talk is nonsense, there is no gender discrimination in figure skating. Find a partner of the opposite sex and work together.

Interestingly, I think TAT is actually not homophobic, IIRC. I think she really does prefer "boy-girl" pairs, and I can't really blame her.

 

[ice coverage]

I thought Jimmy landed the throw double loop very well (with good flow out) but Misha lost his balance a bit after he released Jimmy.

Thanks, Sylvia. I admit that my attention was on Jimmy, because I was intrigued at the sight of him being thrown by Misha.

From the latest batch of seminar clips from Thailand, a wow moment for me was Misha lifting Spencer overhead off ice.

https://www.instagram.com/stories/olgalexcoaching/3090028912798050646/​

Per their ISU bios, Misha and Spencer are almost the same height. Merely two centimeters apart. Approx. 6' 1" vs. 6' 0".

 

[On My Own]

I admit that my attention was on Jimmy, because I was intrigued at the sight of him being thrown by Misha.

My attention was on him because he's cute

 

[thvu]

Really? I think Scott Moir would be terrible with Guillaume.

Babs & Anissina would be wayyyyyyyyyy more entertaining.

 

[VGThuy]

Babs & Anissina would be wayyyyyyyyyy more entertaining.

Imagine how much they’d be tripping over each other just to be the “star” of that team! I want Maurizio and Gwendal watching from the sidelines.

 

[On My Own]

To justify my comment in a serious way. I think Scott and Guillaume weren't giving partners, and that usually fell on Tessa and Gabriella respectively to mold themselves in a way that worked in those partnerships. I would expect Scott especially to overwork and mug to make it look "good". Whereas for the Papadakis/Hubbell pairing, I don't need to figure out Hubbell's strengths too much, I think Papadakis would easily find a way to make them both look good.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Babs & Anissina would be wayyyyyyyyyy more entertaining.

and I want Babs to perform with a stopwatch around her neck

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Imagine how much they’d be tripping over each other just to be the “star” of that team! I want Maurizio and Gwendal watching from the sidelines.

I'd pay good money to watch Maurizio and Gwendal watching Babs and Big Red performing together!

 

[VGThuy]

Imagine a team of Pasha/Maya!

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Imagine a team of Pasha/Maya!

A dual (almost typed duel, which would be appropriate) apache dance!

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Glenn and Manta Please

 

[barbk]

That's a good question. I don't believe it really did. I wonder if flutzing became a thing once triple Lutzes became almost compulsory for women skaters to be competitive as they were training triple Flips as well.

No - flutzes existed. The takeoff edge didn't seem to garner much attention under 6.0 in free-skating, with or without a figures segment. (It mattered hugely for figures, of course.)

What they valued was clean landings. Double footing, or even assumed double-footing (by skaters who frequently double-footed) got clobbered. Falls were a disaster. My memory is that falls were a big hit even if they weren't on an element, but I might be misremembering that.

I saw plenty of US Nationals-competitive juniors and seniors at the Broadmoor back in 85/86 who had what we now call flutzes on doubles.

Some of the lutz trouble came from skaters who seemed so scared to lutz that they'd wait until they were almost to the wall before attempting it.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

What kind of technique and control is lacking without school figures, when it comes to jumping? How did figures help develop it?

Can you name a lower level skater from the figures era who did the jumps with this technique and control, so I can set it against the current skaters, and see what I'm supposed to be looking at?


Did figures require special ice to train and compete?

USFS gold medalist in figures here. Figures teach you how to be on a proper edge, where your body alignment needs to be, etc.

One thing I see missing from a lot of skaters in the post-figure era, especially lower levels, is poor edge control/pressure in jumps. My personal hunch about why we see so many new jump entries is because skaters aren't being taught these fundamentals in a slow, incremental fashion, and they are being used to compensate.

If skaters learned how to do a proper figures BO8 (as opposed to a MITF one), they would have the skills needed to avoid flutzing and learned at the earliest stages of development.

 

[On My Own]

USFS gold medalist in figures here. Figures teach you how to be on a proper edge, where your body alignment needs to be, etc.

One thing I see missing from a lot of skaters in the post-figure era, especially lower levels, is poor edge control/pressure in jumps. My personal hunch about why we see so many new jump entries is because skaters aren't being taught these fundamentals in a slow, incremental fashion, and they are being used to compensate.

I can agree that it would probably lead to a "general" improvement among lower levels in the USA, and maybe at an overall level as well. I'd read a Tom Dickson interview recently, where one of his skaters commented that doing figures helped him jump better, and Dickson said basically what you're saying, that it helps with body positioning, balance, clean edging, etc. https://manleywoman.com/episode-36-tom-dickson/

We have a figures session at our rink once a week. And people like Ryan Bradley, I’ve made them do it [laughs]. He also passed his third test, but it’s been years since he did figures. But he says when he gets on the ice after doing figures, he actually jumps better. And I’m like, that’s because everything you’re doing in a jump is based on compulsory figures. Every position you take, the way you rotate with a curve or against a curve, all those are the foundation for shifting your weight off the ice and jumping.

If skaters learned how to do a proper figures BO8 (as opposed to a MITF one), they would have the skills needed to avoid flutzing and learned at the earliest stages of development.

Thanks. I'd read part of flutzing does happen due to poor balance over the left back outside edge. Eg someone had pointed out that many who toe hammer have flutzes - because the weight is too far over your right side, so your left foot shifts gradually inside by the time you pick in.

Clearly, though, even with figures coaching, there are things like "learn it properly" and "learn this instead of this other thing", so it's not always a cure to things like flutzing. And given there are many true Lutzes right now, you don't "need" figures to learn a true Lutz. And with skaters like Kaori Sakamoto, it's also clear edge quality elsewhere doesn't mean great Lutzes.

What about Lips? In the Scott Hamilton video, he enters his flip with a 3 turn, so what's the cure to that?

Would you say these things don't necessarily apply to figure skaters in countries that aren't the US? It definitely doesn't apply to all skaters, which I don't think you're saying either, because obviously there will be exceptions. But I do imagine this doesn't necessarily apply to all countries, because coaching methods and technical coaching (when it comes to jumping at least) aren't necessarily the same everywhere. Just as an example, here are Johnny Weir and Tara Lipinski pointing out "Chinese technique" on jumps. https://youtu.be/ooHpQByppvk?t=265 which I believe Meagan Duhamel has as well for Pairs throws and jumps.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Imagine a team of Pasha/Maya!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-csly3dWYTU&t=168s

 

[Sylvia]

Guillaume Cizeron spoke on this topic in this interview that was published today by Skate Info Glace (version in English): https://www.skate-info-glace.com/saison-2022-2023/interview-guillaume-cizeron-eng/

Solène: During an interview, Stéphane Lambiel told me he would love to skate a program with you.
Guillaume: Yes! I would love that too. Stéphane is a long-time friend. We have this goal of skating together, we just have to find the time, which is not easy at the moment! We had a lot of fun working together on our free dance in 2018-2019, which he had choreographed. When I was a child, I did not watch figure skating on television a lot, but I really admired Stéphane.

Solène: Gabriella is planning to skate with Madison Hubbell and the Canadian federation recently began to abolish gender norms in pair skating and ice dancing, specifying that these disciplines needed two partners, without referring to a man and a woman. What do you think?
Guillaume: It's really good that the Canadian Federation is leading the way. We have to try it and I think it speaks to the public and the skaters. It will then be necessary to be open-minded to adjust the regulations. But let's not forget that we skate above all for fun. We skate because it inspires us. Everyone should be able to do what he or she wants. There will always be people against it, but a lot of skaters want this freedom.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

What about Lips? In the Scott Hamilton video, he enters his flip with a 3 turn, so what's the cure to that?

A 3-turn or a C-step are the accepted ways to enter this jump and have been for decades. You have no common sense, so on ignore you go.

 

[On My Own]

A 3-turn or a C-step are the accepted ways to enter this jump and have been for decades. You have no common sense, so on ignore you go.

Can someone tell me what asking the cure to a Lip has to do with "common sense"? That's very important to me currently.

I don't really care about what "theoretical"girl thinks, but genuinely curious what a cure to a Lip would be when someone like Hamilton enters it with a lfo-lbi 3 turn and moves to the outside when he's supposed to be on an inside edge for it. Or which figure he should have learned properly, or before which one he should have, and when. Since we're on this very important foundation to all jumping that's somehow not affected anyone ever since figures were scraped in the 1990s. Or how Midori Ito used to jump higher than everyone despite doing poorly at them. Or Tonya Harding.

By the way, I'd imagine "common sense" would also mean "don't assume bad faith" and especially "read things properly". At least it does where I'm from. But I suppose theory could also mean "critical theory".

 

[thvu]

Imagine a team of Pasha/Maya!

OMG, just thinking of this is having me

 

[overedge]

I think the most likely result of any sort of allowance for non-traditional pairings to compete, if that ever happens, would be if the ISU were to copy the way tennis handles doubles.

Do you mean with separate categories for "mixed" teams and same-sex teams? Sorry, I don't follow tennis that much so I don't know if there's other categories for doubles.