Slate | The Once Unthinkable Revolution Coming to Figure Skating

[On My Own]

Yes, skaters are doing more difficult and complicated jumps, but they're doing them without the technique and control that they learned from figures.

What kind of technique and control is lacking without school figures, when it comes to jumping? How did figures help develop it?

Can you name a lower level skater from the figures era who did the jumps with this technique and control, so I can set it against the current skaters, and see what I'm supposed to be looking at?

In my ideal world figures would still be part of the test system, even if they weren't part of the actual competition.

Did figures require special ice to train and compete?

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

What kind of technique and control is lacking without school figures, when it comes to jumping? How did figures help develop it?

Can you name a lower level skater from the figures era who did the jumps with this technique and control, so I can set it against the current skaters, and see what I'm supposed to be looking at?


Did figures require special ice to train and compete?

Compulsory figures - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Sylvia]

I just bumped up this thread for those interested in school figures and its history:

School Figures - A bit of history

I had no idea that in the beginning, school figures were an art form and quite creative. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU9Hy1upUr0 Please add your insights and videos.

www.fsuniverse.net

ETA:

What kind of technique and control is lacking without school figures, when it comes to jumping? How did figures help develop it?

First thing that comes to my mind is the control and balance needed in holding an outside edge and deepening it before picking in for the Lutz takeoff.

 

[On My Own]

First thing that comes to my mind is the control and balance needed in holding an outside edge and deepening it before picking in for the Lutz takeoff.

And people don't do this anymore?

Flutz didn't exist in school figures era?

 

[overedge]

And since we're discussing inclusion, figures are also a type of skating that can be done extremely well by skaters who can't or don't want to jump, or who have body types that aren't the norm.

 

[On My Own]

I just bumped up this thread for those interested in school figures and its history:

School Figures - A bit of history

I had no idea that in the beginning, school figures were an art form and quite creative. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU9Hy1upUr0 Please add your insights and videos.

www.fsuniverse.net

And since we're discussing inclusion, figures are also a type of skating that can be done extremely well by skaters who can't or don't want to jump, or who have body types that aren't the norm.

Right, so to my question about ice.

The Joy of Figures

Over the past two weeks, the international competitive ice skating season has started, with the Skate America competition in Detroit and the Skate Canada competition in Saint John. In most countrie…

allaboutwork.org

And training in figures was very time-consuming and expensive. Figures have to be done on clean ice to see the tracings, and you have to look at the figure while you’re doing it – not dodging other skaters – so figures sessions can’t be combined with any other kind of skating practice.

How many countries - and skaters from those countries - have this sort of ice, the ice time, the money, and training facilities to participate and get better at school figures, so they can be "included"?

 

[VGThuy]

And people don't do this anymore?

Flutz didn't exist in school figures era?

That's a good question. I don't believe it really did. I wonder if flutzing became a thing once triple Lutzes became almost compulsory for women skaters to be competitive as they were training triple Flips as well.

 

[On My Own]

That's a good question. I don't believe it really did. I wonder if flutzing became a thing once triple Lutzes became almost compulsory for women skaters to be competitive as they were training triple Flips as well.

Lip didn't exist among men during figures era, when they were doing 3F?

 

[VGThuy]

Lip didn't exist among men during figures era, when they were doing 3F?

Maybe we should plan a FSU activity where we take random skaters from the figures era, and observe how they performed double and triple lutzes/flips. A question like this could be answered with observation and data gathering as opposed to conjecture and guess-working.

 

[On My Own]

Maybe we should plan a FSU activity where we take random skaters from the figures era, and observe how they performed double and triple lutzes/flips. A question like this could be answered with observation and data gathering as opposed to conjecture and guess-working.

This is my point, I don't see the need to base my understanding on the village lore that goes on in skating forums usually. People are free to assume it's arrogance or my own lack of education or whatever else as they've done elsewhere, but here just as an example is Scott Hamilton's Lip:

- YouTube

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youtu.be

(eta to add: https://youtu.be/3FdWwx0QX6Y?t=175 from 1984 worlds where he doesn't end up popping it)

Where is the incredible edge control here?

And why isn't the much better equipment factoring into the jump technique right now, or why the lighter boots don't offer better ways to jump. I'm not even talking about pre-rotation, because we can then go to every skater and see how many used to pre-rotate too.

ETA: https://youtu.be/-omLIo2w2n0?t=120 Browning also had a less than ideal flip edge, although not as blatantly horrible as Hamilton's.

 

[VGThuy]

I was speaking specifically of flutzing and lipping. It does seem like Scott Hamilton did have a lip, didn't he? It might be less of a "figures" thing and more of a "triples" thing.

As for edge control, the question of whether figures era actually resulted in skaters with better skating skills in actual "free skating". Trixie Schuba/Janet Lynn are often used as an argument that mastery of figures did not mean one would be an excellent free skater when it comes to a free skating definition of "skating skills" and what we think about what that means today. Of course, that's an extreme example.

I do think compulsory figures tested much different skills, many of which may not be utilized in free skating. It's not quite the same as compulsory dances in ice dance or gymnastics compulsories that were much more related to what they did in the "original" and "free" dance or the "optionals".

 

[overedge]

How many countries - and skaters from those countries - have this sort of ice, the ice time, the money, and training facilities to participate and get better at school figures, so they can be "included"?

Many countries don't have the ice time or training facilities to support skaters in the disciplines that already exist. Why do you think most of the skaters who represent India, for example, are North American skaters with Indian heritage? Not having enough ice time or facilities is a barrier to participating in skating in general.

If clubs recognize the value of figures, and if figures were part of the test system, clubs would find the ice time for figures. That's what they did when figures were part of competitions.

 

[Sylvia]

Slate’s sports podcast this week features Talia Barrington in the final segment, starting after the 47-minute mark (a transcript link is available if you prefer to skim):

How to Announce a Baseball Game in the Pitch-Clock Era

“We are covering a different sport now.”

slate.com

 

[overedge]

As for edge control, the question of whether figures era actually resulted in skaters with better skating skills in actual "free skating". Trixie Schuba/Janet Lynn are often used as an argument that mastery of figures did not mean one would be an excellent free skater when it comes to a free skating definition of "skating skills" and what we think about what that means today. Of course, that's an extreme example.

Also keeping in mind that Janet Lynn was skilled enough in figures to be able to compete at Nationals and Worlds. "Better" is relative. She may not have been as good in figures as Trixi Schuba was, but she was more skilled in figures than literally hundreds of other skaters that she placed ahead of at other competitions.

 

[Miezekatze]

I read Denise Biellmans autobiography very recently, who was skating as an amateur when figures still existed.

She hated figures with a passion, tried to avoid training them from a young age on and was really pretty bad at them, getting bad marks, but she was a much stronger jumper than most of her competitors and due to that moved up in the rankings in the other parts of the competition. She also was the first female skater who landed a triple lutz. So I somehow doubt that there is that much of a correlation between figures and jumps or figures and the other competition parts.

Here one can see her take-off edges for 3flip and 3lutz when she was 12:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[VGThuy]

Not that we know everything about her, but what has often struck me was that with all the things Tonya Harding had complained about regarding skating and the more performance aspects of it she was kind of forced to train, she never complained about figures. I remember some video footage from an interview with Diane Rawlinson from when Tonya was a young child and she was excitedly skating over to grab that tool that looks like one of those compasses with a pencil you had to buy for math classes to start training figures and she looked like she was having the time of her life because she was skating.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Tonya liked figures. It’s purely hands-on and skill-based and allows a skater to “play” with the blade in a different way, even if the judging wasn’t often purely “skill-based”.

 

[overedge]

I read Denise Biellmans autobiography very recently, who was skating as an amateur when figures still existed.

She hated figures with a passion, tried to avoid training them from a young age on and was really pretty bad at them, getting bad marks, but she was a much stronger jumper than most of her competitors and due to that moved up in the rankings in the other parts of the competition. She also was the first female skater who landed a triple lutz. So I somehow doubt that there is that much of a correlation between figures and jumps or figures and the other competition parts.

Here one can see her take-off edges for 3flip and 3lutz when she was 12:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Kurt Browning is the only skater to win Worlds with figures and without figures (as in, his last World title was after figures were removed from competition), and he's said that figures really helped his freeskating. He understood why they were removed, but another good thing about them was that they gave the skaters' bodies a rest from the stresses of freeskating.

 

[DynamicMutation]

The resistance and the novelty of this in some ways surprises me. When I began skating in the 80s my very first competition was as part of a “similar” dance couple. Especially living in the middle of nowhere you did not have many (any!) male partners. So, to make training more interesting we often would learn the “man’s” aka partner A steps and partner each other in dances, and local sanctioned (but not competitive stream) competitions had events for similar dance and later for similar pairs. A few years in I recall that the males did not want to be left out and competed as similar pair and similar dance teams.

I think we have to separate this from gender and look at this as more ways to expand the sport, keep athletes involved and engaged, and ultimately allow our sport to evolve.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I read Denise Biellmans autobiography very recently, who was skating as an amateur when figures still existed.

She hated figures with a passion, tried to avoid training them from a young age on and was really pretty bad at them, getting bad marks, but she was a much stronger jumper than most of her competitors and due to that moved up in the rankings in the other parts of the competition. She also was the first female skater who landed a triple lutz. So I somehow doubt that there is that much of a correlation between figures and jumps or figures and the other competition parts.

Here one can see her take-off edges for 3flip and 3lutz when she was 12:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

that makes sense plus Tonya Harding was terrible at figures as well and she was the queen of jumps and first American to do the triple axel

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Not that we know everything about her, but what has often struck me was that with all the things Tonya Harding had complained about regarding skating and the more performance aspects of it she was kind of forced to train, she never complained about figures. I remember some video footage from an interview with Diane Rawlinson from when Tonya was a young child and she was excitedly skating over to grab that tool that looks like one of those compasses with a pencil you had to buy for math classes to start training figures and she looked like she was having the time of her life because she was skating.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Tonya liked figures. It’s purely hands-on and skill-based and allows a skater to “play” with the blade in a different way, even if the judging wasn’t often purely “skill-based”.

I just made my post before I read yours.

between Kristy, Nancy and Tonya who was the best at figures

 

[tony]

Harding was definitely the best at figures. Kerrigan and Yamaguchi were both buried in the standings typically and had to play catch-up in their events. Harding, on the other hand, was often falling apart in the free skating segments before they all found some consistency, sans compulsories, in 1991.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Harding was definitely the best at figures. Kerrigan and Yamaguchi were both buried in the standings typically and had to play catch-up in their events. Harding, on the other hand, was often falling apart in the free skating segments before they all found some consistency, sans compulsories, in 1991.

got it

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Between Nancy, Kristi, and Tonya, of the three, I always found Tonya the most exciting. Her power and attack, combined with dynamic music choices, were thrilling to watch when she was on.

What I always find fascinating about the sport now, is that the elements are essentially the same with the top skaters. It is how skaters structure and perform what they do that determines whether a program was memorable and entertaining or not.

 

[kwanfan1818]

In a funny and snark-esque review of the recent Youth America Grand Prix (YAGP) dance competition and gala performance, former New York City Ballet dancer-turned-dance critic Faye Arthurs wrote,

"Since both teens and adults (and kids! Anne Takahashi, age 10, was going for triples in her “Harlequinade” solo) were doing a lot of the same stunts, it was a wonderful opportunity to assess what, if anything, separated the students from the pros. Fascinatingly, there turned out to be a stark divide, but it was neither the number of turns nor aesthetics that delineated the camps. (In fact, I’d give the award for best lines of the night to the beautiful Morgan Ligon, age 11. Though ABT’s Chloe Misseldine and La Scala Ballet’s Jacopo Tissi were not far behind.) Though the students were uber-talented, it was easy to tell when the pros took over the show because of their finesse in the in-between steps. They rolled through their feet; they knitted sequences together. They didn’t look like they were prepping for their next trick the whole time."​

 

[On My Own]

[Denise Biellmann] So I somehow doubt that there is that much of a correlation between figures and jumps or figures and the other competition parts.

And, of course, Janet Lynn.

I do not see even the remotest relation, not to mention, even IF there were a relation, you don't need to go through the process of learning figures for it. It can just be taught as part of jump technique to begin.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

And, of course, Janet Lynn.

I do not see even the remotest relation, not to mention, even IF there were a relation, you don't need to go through the process of learning figures for it. It can just be taught as part of jump technique to begin.

'Not to diminish Trixi or Janet, what I love is how two of the greatest exponents of the sport, Lynn in free skating, and Schuba in figures, existed and competed within the same Olympiad, and are still remembered 50 years later for it.

 

[On My Own]

'Not to diminish Trixi or Janet, what I love is how two of the greatest exponents of the sport, Lynn in free skating, and Schuba in figures, existed and competed within the same Olympiad, and are still remembered 50 years later for it.

Janet Lynn, sure, but I really doubt anyone remembers Trixi Schuba apart from skating diehards of yore.

 

[skatfan]

I wonder if this interesting discussion about figures and how they influence skating could find its own thread so the rest of us can discuss the same-gender partner possibilities? Pretty please?

 

[Orm Irian]

I wonder if this interesting discussion about figures and how they influence skating could find its own thread so the rest of us can discuss the same-gender partner possibilities? Pretty please?

Indeed. To haul it back into the general vicinity of the original topic, Gabriella Papadakis just posted an instagram story of two female skaters (I presume ice dancers) working on an overhead lift and doing quite nicely at it for what looked to be fairly early in the process.

It's all about finding the balance points...

 

[isaac.griffiths24]

Thank you for sharing that information. It's great to hear that the skaters are making progress in their training and perfecting their technique for the overhead lift. Finding the right balance points is definitely a key aspect in executing lifts successfully in ice dancing. Good luck to them in their future training and performances!