U.S. Men 2022-23 news & updates

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Marry said:
If we can say Ilia should work more on artistry than jumps, we can also say Jason should work more on his jumps than artistry. Artistry is subjective, technique is not. Figure skating is still a sport, giving a pass to those who move nicely across the ice but doesn't contribute anything to the sport side of figure skating is not what's gonna make people respect figure skating as sport or as an olympic discipline. It's also not fair to those who bothered to learn quads. A jumper can learn to be a dancer, a dancer has obviously difficulties to become a jumper. But i heard they are gonna invent the solo dance category soon, so this might be something for those allergic to athleticism ;)
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Jason's technique on everything except quads (and the triple axel, sometimes) is excellent. His component marks (which go into specific areas, not simply artistry) are pretty much best in the world. We'd love to see him get a reliable quad, but at his age and with some of the injuries, I'm pretty doubtful. I do wonder what might have happened if he had not been injured (concussed?) in that very bad car crash years ago.

Meanwhile, Ilia, who is young, has weak component scores across the board, and I've yet to see any suggestion that he was undermarked. He's ambitious and wants to win. Winning will require genuine improvement in component scores. I hope (and expect) that participating in some of the shows in Japan will help him cultivate greater understanding of those aspects.
 
Marry said:
If we can say Ilia should work more on artistry than jumps, we can also say Jason should work more on his jumps than artistry. Artistry is subjective, technique is not. Figure skating is still a sport, giving a pass to those who move nicely across the ice but doesn't contribute anything to the sport side of figure skating is not what's gonna make people respect figure skating as sport or as an olympic discipline. It's also not fair to those who bothered to learn quads.
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Or you could take like five minutes to educate yourself on the technical elements of figure skating that are not quad jumps. No other skater in the world could skate Ilia’s programs, and no other skater in the world could skate Jason’s programs, and in neither case is that because of “artistry.” They’re both skaters with extraordinary technical skill sets. It’s nobody else’s fault if you’ve only bothered to learn about some of those skills and not others.

I’m sure Jason will appreciate the advice that he should “work more on his jumps” though. What a shame we didn’t have anyone else around to harp on that endlessly for the last 15 years.
 
I don't want to feed the troll but-
You have obviously never figure skated at an even somewhat high level. The components, edge work, footwork, and spins all take insane levels of strength, fitness and athleticism. Do you really think that, say, downhill skiers lack athleticism because they aren't ski jumpers?
 
The edgework is actually a lot harder than the jumps. There's a reason a lot of skaters can do 3-3/quads/3As but very few can do truly difficult transitions like Jason does. It really burns your legs and gets you much more tired than jumps. It's extremely hard to jump with the burning legs from a lot of one foot skating, but most skaters do jumps from a ton of crossovers and that's why you see so much of that.
 
Trillian said:
no other skater in the world could skate Jason’s programs, and in neither case is that because of “artistry.”
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Oh I don’t know about that. I can totally see at least one male Japanese skater (when healthy) perfectly capable of doing a Jason’s program … and with a quad or two thrown in to boot.
 
orbitz said:
Oh I don’t know about that. I can totally see at least one male Japanese skater (when healthy) perfectly capable of doing a Jason’s program … and with a quad or two thrown in to boot.
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Here's also Kevin Aymoz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOGmoDQTVAY&ab_channel=3Axel1996

About Jason's Lutz: https://youtu.be/1rEBhrhhCtE?t=390

Belinda Noonan claims Jason did a 3F+3T. Well, why wouldn't she when he's going off an inside edge there.

Here's what the "3F+3T" was marked as: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2223/wc2023/data0105.pdf

3Lz+3T +2.19

It would be good if skaters who are amazingly technical in the superior aspects of skating are scored accordingly in the inferior aspects of skating.

___

I don't think there's an argument against skating skills, transitions, spins, and steps being much more subjective - even in terms of technique - compared to jumps. As it stands, we have a skater with an overscored 3A and a 3"Lz" who finished 5th at worlds, and people have the right to question whether or not skating will be viewed as a proper sport at the Olympics if things like that happen.
 
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Re: Jason.

Could he work on his jumps? Sure. But are we going to see him anywhere other than nationals/worlds? Probably not. And I doubt he’ll even continue much longer. As a Jason fan, he is very much helping the US out while they’re a little thin with strong, consistent men right now. I don’t see Jason staying around for the entire quad (I wish), but he’s a strong balance for Ilia. He helps the US retain spots too. If the other men can get consistent, will Jason stick around? No clue.

I don’t know if Jason will stay injury free training harder jumps or messing with his technique at this point in time. I’m OK with it. I’m just appreciating him for as long as we have him on competitive ice.
 
Trillian said:
Or you could take like five minutes to educate yourself on the technical elements of figure skating that are not quad jumps. No other skater in the world could skate Ilia’s programs, and no other skater in the world could skate Jason’s programs, and in neither case is that because of “artistry.” They’re both skaters with extraordinary technical skill sets. It’s nobody else’s fault if you’ve only bothered to learn about some of those skills and not others.

I’m sure Jason will appreciate the advice that he should “work more on his jumps” though. What a shame we didn’t have anyone else around to harp on that endlessly for the last 15 years.
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And what has happened? He never does quads ever. He abandoned all efforts to increase difficulty in jumps
 
Sarah said:
Re: Jason.

Could he work on his jumps? Sure. But are we going to see him anywhere other than nationals/worlds? Probably not. And I doubt he’ll even continue much longer. As a Jason fan, he is very much helping the US out while they’re a little thin with strong, consistent men right now. I don’t see Jason staying around for the entire quad (I wish), but he’s a strong balance for Ilia. He helps the US retain spots too. If the other men can get consistent, will Jason stick around? No clue.

I don’t know if Jason will stay injury free training harder jumps or messing with his technique at this point in time. I’m OK with it. I’m just appreciating him for as long as we have him on competitive ice.
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He is beating almost all other Americans in free skates all the time because of his pcs. His pcs only goes higher and higher. Malinin can barely beat him. No other American comes close. He can easily win nationals in 2026 at this rate. Who knows what the incredible vicious attacks on malinin will mean for him even after he won world bronze
 
Sarah said:
I don’t know if Jason will stay injury free training harder jumps or messing with his technique at this point in time.
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I think all of us who’ve been following the sport for more than five minutes know that “work more on his jumps” is a pretty irrelevant comment w/r/t Jason at this point. It seems like his goal is to perform at whatever technical skill level his body will allow, and not go overboard to the point of injury. That’s a great approach and we’re lucky we get to see it.

Every skater has technical flaws and weaknesses, including Jason on some of his non-quad elements. The flutz is real, and he doesn’t get 100% level 4s on his non-jump elements. But I do think it’s important to recognize that what he does involves an exceptionally high level of technical skill and athleticism - not because of him, but because of the future. There are younger skaters coming up right now who can see that there’s a path for them within the sport even if they don’t achieve the jumping prowess of some of their competitors. And that’s not just about Jason, but also Kevin Aymoz and others. We need to keep recognizing and valuing and incentivizing the technical skills of skaters like that, or we really are going to end up with nothing but a jumping contest.

caseyedwards said:
And what has happened? He never does quads ever. He abandoned all efforts to increase difficulty in jumps
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Speaking of trolls. He added a 3A-2A sequence this year, which I know the quad-obsessed crowd doesn’t care about, but obviously he cared enough to try to pick up the additional points.

caseyedwards said:
His pcs only goes higher and higher.
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Absolutely. They’re working on a special tweak to the scoring software so that they can go up to 11 next season, but only for him and specifically to annoy you.
 
Trillian said:
I think all of us who’ve been following the sport for more than five minutes know that “work more on his jumps” is a pretty irrelevant comment w/r/t Jason at this point. It seems like his goal is to perform at whatever technical skill level his body will allow, and not go overboard to the point of injury. That’s a great approach and we’re lucky we get to see it.

Every skater has technical flaws and weaknesses, including Jason on some of his non-quad elements. The flutz is real, and he doesn’t get 100% level 4s on his non-jump elements. But I do think it’s important to recognize that what he does involves an exceptionally high level of technical skill and athleticism - not because of him, but because of the future. There are younger skaters coming up right now who can see that there’s a path for them within the sport even if they don’t achieve the jumping prowess of some of their competitors. And that’s not just about Jason, but also Kevin Aymoz and others. We need to keep recognizing and valuing and incentivizing the technical skills of skaters like that, or we really are going to end up with nothing but a jumping contest.



Speaking of trolls. He added a 3A-2A sequence this year, which I know the quad-obsessed crowd doesn’t care about, but obviously he cared enough to try to pick up the additional points.



Absolutely. They’re working on a special tweak to the scoring software so that they can go up to 11 next season, but only for him and specifically to annoy you.
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Oh a double axel
 
Trillian said:
Kevin Aymoz and others. We need to keep recognizing and valuing and incentivizing the technical skills of skaters like that, or we really are going to end up with nothing but a jumping contest.
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When did we... not recognize the technical skills of skaters like Kevin? Or are we talking about his true Lutz set against an uncalled Flutz?

I think people may be shocked at how skaters like Stephane Lambiel had better spins and skating skills than Brown - and had those with quads to boot. And Jeremy Abbott had better skating skills and transitions with quad attempts despite the legendary inconsistency. Brown hasn't created some sort of revolution by merely existing and not being able to do a high quality jump more difficult than a 3F.

So actually, no, we won't end up with a "jumping contest" by not incentivizing skaters like Jason, because for every Jason, there will be a Shoma as he is currently - 5 quads with choreography. Or Kevin, again fully capable of doing quads with choreography. Pretending otherwise is just plain insulting to those skaters, even Cha whose skating I didn't even like this season. And I'm fairly certain an Olympic level athlete would rather take inspiration from someone like Shoma.
Trillian said:
That’s a great approach and we’re lucky we get to see it.
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I do not feel I am "lucky" to see an approach based upon uncalled flutzes, overscored 3As, and mystical technical skills that somehow prop a skater up to the status of "no other skater in the world" being able to skate what this one skater did, when he factually cannot do what the overwhelming majority of men do, and many do with choreography to boot.
 
On My Own said:
mystical technical skills
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Yeah, I’m familiar with your “everything I think is true is hard science and everything I haven’t taken the time to learn more about is just women having emotions” approach to conversation, thanks. Hard pass. There are technical resources available online if you want to learn more about non-jump elements so you don’t find them so confusing in the future.

caseyedwards said:
Oh a double axel
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[insert that gif of Janeane Garofalo from Romy and Michele’s High School Reunion here]

This tendency of people to hyperfixate on whatever a skater doesn’t do well as a way of trying to delegitimize their accomplishments is one of the most stupid and toxic parts of online fan communities. They’re all really good! That’s how they got to be world-class figure skaters! You don’t have to enjoy every technical element of figure skating equally, but claiming it isn’t a valid athletic accomplishment because it doesn’t happen to be your favorite thing is pretty ridiculous. There is a world where it’s possible to appreciate the fact that all of these skaters bring something unique to the ice, instead of tearing them down because they don’t have exactly the same skill set as your favorite.
 
On My Own said:
When did we... not recognize the technical skills of skaters like Kevin? Or are we talking about his true Lutz set against an uncalled Flutz?

I think people may be shocked at how skaters like Stephane Lambiel had better spins and skating skills than Brown - and had those with quads to boot. And Jeremy Abbott had better skating skills and transitions with quad attempts despite the legendary inconsistency. Brown hasn't created some sort of revolution by merely existing and not being able to do a high quality jump more difficult than a 3F.
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In what world did Stephane have better spins? His camel spin was hideous, never fully stretched, and most of his spins traveled all over the place-- especially that headless scratch that he'd end his program with. Creative positions is one facet of the overall picture. But besides fast and unique sit positions, he really wasn't all that spectacular. Talk about propping up based on certain criteria while ignoring others....

His flip also was taken off on an outside edge.
On My Own said:
So actually, no, we won't end up with a "jumping contest" by not incentivizing skaters like Jason, because for every Jason, there will be a Shoma as he is currently - 5 quads with choreography. Or Kevin, again fully capable of doing quads with choreography. Pretending otherwise is just plain insulting to those skaters, even Cha whose skating I didn't even like this season. And I'm fairly certain an Olympic level athlete would rather take inspiration from someone like Shoma.
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Most of Shoma's program is crossovers. His quad technique is beyond suspect. He's never done a clean 4F in his life and the ISU highlighted just how cheated his 4Lo was at Worlds.

Also, Kevin has a severe flip outside edge.
 
I guess some people here are having selective memory or are too young to have experienced all the attention on Jason and his lack of quads when he was closer to Ilia’s age. It was non-stop. He’s older now and Ilia is younger, so they’re not going to have the same expectations nor are people thinking Jason is in a place to be a champion whereas Ilia has those expectations. He’s also being compared more directly to competitors who have more scoring potential in GOE and PCS and who are not too behind in TES base value.
 
On My Own said:
When did we... not recognize the technical skills of skaters like Kevin? Or are we talking about his true Lutz set against an uncalled Flutz?

I think people may be shocked at how skaters like Stephane Lambiel had better spins and skating skills than Brown - and had those with quads to boot. And Jeremy Abbott had better skating skills and transitions with quad attempts despite the legendary inconsistency. Brown hasn't created some sort of revolution by merely existing and not being able to do a high quality jump more difficult than a 3F.

So actually, no, we won't end up with a "jumping contest" by not incentivizing skaters like Jason, because for every Jason, there will be a Shoma as he is currently - 5 quads with choreography. Or Kevin, again fully capable of doing quads with choreography. Pretending otherwise is just plain insulting to those skaters, even Cha whose skating I didn't even like this season. And I'm fairly certain an Olympic level athlete would rather take inspiration from someone like Shoma.

I do not feel I am "lucky" to see an approach based upon uncalled flutzes, overscored 3As, and mystical technical skills that somehow prop a skater up to the status of "no other skater in the world" being able to skate what this one skater did, when he factually cannot do what the overwhelming majority of men do, and many do with choreography to boot.
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Did Lambiel and Jeremy have better skating skills than Brown (Brown of 2022/3 I mean)? Hard to say, unless we have seen them skate live side by side or one after another. Lambiel had issues with 3A though.
I thought Shoma has plenty of stroke stroke jump choreo himself. That said, great skating skills and two time world champion!
 
VGThuy said:
I guess some people here are having selective memory or are too young to have experienced all the attention on Jason and his lack of quads when he was closer to Ilia’s age. It was non-stop. He’s older now and Ilia is younger, so they’re not going to have the same expectations nor are people thinking Jason is in a place to be a champion whereas Ilia has those expectations. He’s also being compared more directly to competitors who have more scoring potential in GOE and PCS and who are not too behind in TES base value.
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I remember it! I remember him doing underrated quads a few times but the whole US skating establishment seemed to have convinced him to stop even trying and rewarding him for ending all attempts to have one
 
VGThuy said:
I guess some people here are having selective memory or are too young to have experienced all the attention on Jason and his lack of quads when he was closer to Ilia’s age. It was non-stop. He’s older now and Ilia is younger, so they’re not going to have the same expectations nor are people thinking Jason is in a place to be a champion whereas Ilia has those expectations. He’s also being compared more directly to competitors who have more scoring potential in GOE and PCS and who are not too behind in TES base value.
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Lord, when Jason was Ilia's age we were only just part the bit where Dave Lease was proudly shouting to the world that Jason would never ever land the 3A in competition...

I mean Jesus, it went on even earlier than that, when he won Juniors over Joshua and Max, who were much more well-armed in the jumps department than he was.
 
Marry said:
If we can say Ilia should work more on artistry than jumps, we can also say Jason should work more on his jumps than artistry. Artistry is subjective, technique is not. Figure skating is still a sport, giving a pass to those who move nicely across the ice but doesn't contribute anything to the sport side of figure skating is not what's gonna make people respect figure skating as sport or as an olympic discipline. It's also not fair to those who bothered to learn quads. A jumper can learn to be a dancer, a dancer has obviously difficulties to become a jumper. But i heard they are gonna invent the solo dance category soon, so this might be something for those allergic to athleticism ;)
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This is so true. We never argue over technique or disagree with the judges' calls.
 
Is there an update on Kirk “Mr Personality” Haugeto of NJ? He and Lukas Broussard are my favorite up and comers.
 
jlai said:
Did Lambiel and Jeremy have better skating skills than Brown (Brown of 2022/3 I mean)? Hard to say, unless we have seen them skate live side by side or one after another. Lambiel had issues with 3A though.
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I would say so. I found them to have better rhythmic knee action just as an example (like Abbott's great Lilies of the Valley step sequence), but they did attempt fewer turns in leveled step sequences simply because of requirements.
jlai said:
I thought Shoma has plenty of stroke stroke jump choreo himself. That said, great skating skills and two time world champion!
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I think it's a bit unfair to say that about him, because he does do some stuff in-between all those quads. Maybe nothing leading directly into them anymore, but he used to do that too when he was less injured. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMBPul3MX2c

Shoma's problems with choreo did occur after that though. He's slowly started to recover some ability, but I doubt it'll be upto the 2017 standards, he's just too old (and again, too injured).
 
Frau Muller said:
HAPPY Kirk: I could have guessed. ROTFL! I can’t wait to see him on the JrGP circuit this fall.
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Based on Junior Worlds results, the U.S. men (along with CAN & KOR) are only guaranteed 1 spot in 7 JGP events this coming season ... unless JPN (expected to use all their spots), SUI and/or ITA choose not to use their 2 men's spots per JGP.
 
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