overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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You're being presented with facts, and you're writing them off because they're not fitting your opinion. You're really not in a position to be accusing others of "assumptions and speculation".
Eric Radford and Vanessa James to compete in pairs together for Canada
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You're being presented with facts, and you're writing them off because they're not fitting your opinion. You're really not in a position to be accusing others of "assumptions and speculation".
skatista098
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And let us hope that these Russian athletes do not post any random quotes or poems on their social media at a time like this.
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As I and others have mentioned we have backed it up with plenty of facts and a breakdown of the timeline since we were all following the situation as if unfolded. You don't think what we know is enough? fine, but what we know is more than enough for me and it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and see that her actions are what smeared her character, and not what people on FSU are writing.
Orm Irian
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Some of us might be, but not all of us are, so please don't try to speak for everyone on that point.
I gave her that courtesy for some considerable time, and then she opened her mouth and made it clear exactly where she stood and what she cared about. No more leeway from me.
Coco
Rotating while Russian!
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'Before you send a photo, think.'
Japanfan
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Even if Vanessa did know, I can understand why she wouldn't say anything what with her career and future riding on her partnership. And the 2022 Games ahead.
Yes, what he did was terrible and her not speaking out if she knew is pretty bad too. I like to think that I, in the same situation, would most definitely have spoken out.
But people can be selfish and cruel sometimes, especially when it protects their own interests.
Yes, what he did was terrible and her not speaking out if she knew is pretty bad too. I like to think that I, in the same situation, would most definitely have spoken out.
But people can be selfish and cruel sometimes, especially when it protects their own interests.
nlloyd
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Well, at the very least, it was insensitive of her to be dispensing generic, everyday advice when her partner was being shown to have sent dick pics to a 13-year old. As it happens, I believe it is a commentary in support of Cipres. I mean, who in their right mind, decides that during the breaking of this scandal to dispense general, unrelated life wisdom?
I suspect that many involved in the dick pic situation have their own narrative of events, in which they blame the 13-year old. I have heard parts of that narrative, but I think the culture at the rink must have given validity to. What seems like a very problematic situation of a 13-year old receiving these photographs, was filtered through the rink culture in such as way as those involved could not see how it would look to the "outside world." That is because they had lost touch with reality; the culture at the rink had distorted it.
This is why your point about James not knowing is so unlikely. There were a number of individuals at the rink who were involved: the person who dared the girls to get the photo in return for a pizza was a coach or director, the girls were skaters, and the girl's tutor and therapist were informed etc. The girl was then told by James and Cipres' coaches, Sylvia Fontana and John Zimmerman, to keep quiet about the situation as it was an Olympic year. They knew. Knowing how gossipy rinks are, it is far more likely that James knew.
But wishful thinking is not unique to you as a figure skating fan nor to this situation. Fans have had a lot of practice at pretzelling themselves and their arguments to suit their wishes. I saw this first hand in 1998 with Richard Callaghan. It was hard to find any support for Craig Maurizi at the time. That one took 20 years for the truth to finally come out and for fans to accept it.
alj5
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Frau Muller
From Puerto Rico…With Love! Not LatinX!
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Could Vanessa & Eric win? What an amazing statement that would be and spark for skating interest in North America…new fans among non-traditional audiences and all that.
skatista098
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It is interesting to me that fans on here believe that they are entitled to a response from Vanessa (or else she is a terrible person) as if she owes them an explanation for an adult white male. In reality, she is entitled to not respond publicly to Cipres' behavior because she too was a victim of his actions. She suffered too, she lost a lot because of his actions and she is entitled to deal with that however she wants without judgement. It is very easy for people who truly do not know how she was feeling, what situation she was in at the time, to claim that they would have responded like absolute saints.
Vanessa said she did not know. At the end of the day, the biggest amount of proof that we have are her words and she rejected that notion. I believe her. I have no reason to believe she is a liar, which is what many on here are attempting but failing to prove. Vanessa is an elite athlete, focussed on her skating. I cannot imagine that she would have the time or the personality of a gossipy skating mom (which is usually a characteristic in lower level skaters, not the elite) at her rink. I think Vanessa comes across as the type of person who is gossiped "about" not "with." Unless someone on here knows someone at her rink who told her of Cipres' actions, then I think it is absolutely plausible that she did not know. If there was even a minuscule of evidence that she knew about it or that she was involved in any way, she would have easily been investigated by SafeSport like the others.
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skatista098
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Any information on the upcoming movie that they were recently stunt doubles in? I would love to see them on the big screen.
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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IIRC Vanessa was not under SafeSport jurisdiction because she was competing for France. Her not being investigated by SafeSport doesn’t mean she wasn't involved or didn't know what was going on.
skatista098
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That is not true. She was a coach under USFSA at the time and she was not investigated because there was NO evidence that she was involved.
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overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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Do you work for SafeSport?
skatista098
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Do you?
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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No. But you seem to making some assumptions about why SafeSport did what it did, or didn't do. Do you work for SafeSport?
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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Only because you're not willing to consider facts that don't fit your worldview.
Since you know so much about skating, you should be able to understand the amount of time that pairs skaters spend together and spend with their coaches. It also wasn't just Cipres, Zimmerman, and Fontana that were involved. There was also the young skater who got the dick pix - who Cipres worked with as a coach - and the other coach who told Cipres to send the pix to the girl. With that many people so close to Vanessa involved in the situation, it is very difficult to believe she didn't know anything. She may have disapproved of it, but that is different from not knowing anything at all about it.
skatista098
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Is that not exactly what you are doing?
skatista098
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Have any of the people involved mentioned Vanessa's involvement or knowledge of it at all? Are there any reputable articles online stating Vanessa's involvement? Or are you placing blame (on a victim) where it is not warranted?
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overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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Do you have any reputable articles or sources explaining why SafeSport decided not to investigate Vanessa? Because the only evidence why they did not proceed is your statement that there was ZERO evidence she was involved. That's not reliable evidence unless you are Vanessa or someone with inside knowledge of SafeSport's decision-making in this case.
I don't really know that there's any point in continuing to discuss this with you. I find it very difficult to believe that she could not know about what was going on, given how intensely and closely pair partners work with each other and their coach. You're also conveniently ignoring that the cover-up was to protect both her and Cipres, as a team, which makes it even less plausible that she didn't know what was going on. As I said, and which you also conveniently ignored, she may have disapproved of the cover-up, but that's not the same thing as not being aware that it was happening.
Vanessa was in a difficult situation, but IMO her public comments and her conditional apologies have not addressed the situation appropriately. I find it very interesting that in all your remarks on this situation, you are focusing on the "fans". You haven't said a word about the underage skater who received Cipres' dick pix and who was bullied and threatened into silence about them, to the point where she had to go to a therapist for help. As long as Vanessa thinks that saying "I am sorry if my silence hurt anybody" is an apology, then she is not taking responsibility for her actions.
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coppertop1
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I'm done with them. They got propped up from the start and favored even though they never skated that well. Eric stepped not only on Meagan but on Walsh/Michaud to get there and Vanessa saying their spot was already secured shows they felt entitled.
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This thread is going a million different directions, and I'm going to regret repeating myself for the 20th or so time, but here goes anyways:
Cipres is guilty of what he did. I want to remind people that the only basis we have for the A to Z of everything is from the one and only Christine Brennan- the same person that many on this board are quick to dismiss for sensationalism every other time she has anything to say. Many of the details are correct- the most important of course being Cipres' actions. Some of the details along the way to Z are either left out or switched around for the benefit of her story. Did Vanessa know? I don't know for sure, and neither do any of you. But as one poster did earlier in this thread, I don't get the point of constantly attaching a 'remember why James isn't skating for France / had to switch countries / had to find a new partner' asterisk every single time she's mentioned. This was not because of her actions, and it's not something her career should be remembered by IMO.
I was curious about what Vanessa said and then later deleted that some of you are clinging on to as an entire basis of judgment. When it was finally pulled back up a few pages ago, my thought was really? Just based on that quote? Some of you are going to have no one left to root for if you are deciding exactly what skaters should do, or even worse, say in these kinds of positions. You're not in that position personally, and of course it's easier to sit and write a playbook about what should have been done.
Were Vanessa and Eric propped up from the beginning? If one means Skate Canada giving them press coverage from the start, then I guess? But international panels have marked them down when appropriate and it's not as if they were ever scoring higher than what the 7th or 8th place teams in the world were scoring. With China and Russia out, yes they move up to medal contenders. The technical panels, by the way, have been pretty brutal on their level-calling all season, so I don't think they are getting any favors. I was one who took big issue with the clarity of the document for Olympics selection and 100% believe it needs to be rewritten to specify what they actually use/don't use, but from a better scoring potential, it was J/R. If you want to blame anyone for the propping, put it on Skate Canada.
Cipres is guilty of what he did. I want to remind people that the only basis we have for the A to Z of everything is from the one and only Christine Brennan- the same person that many on this board are quick to dismiss for sensationalism every other time she has anything to say. Many of the details are correct- the most important of course being Cipres' actions. Some of the details along the way to Z are either left out or switched around for the benefit of her story. Did Vanessa know? I don't know for sure, and neither do any of you. But as one poster did earlier in this thread, I don't get the point of constantly attaching a 'remember why James isn't skating for France / had to switch countries / had to find a new partner' asterisk every single time she's mentioned. This was not because of her actions, and it's not something her career should be remembered by IMO.
I was curious about what Vanessa said and then later deleted that some of you are clinging on to as an entire basis of judgment. When it was finally pulled back up a few pages ago, my thought was really? Just based on that quote? Some of you are going to have no one left to root for if you are deciding exactly what skaters should do, or even worse, say in these kinds of positions. You're not in that position personally, and of course it's easier to sit and write a playbook about what should have been done.
Were Vanessa and Eric propped up from the beginning? If one means Skate Canada giving them press coverage from the start, then I guess? But international panels have marked them down when appropriate and it's not as if they were ever scoring higher than what the 7th or 8th place teams in the world were scoring. With China and Russia out, yes they move up to medal contenders. The technical panels, by the way, have been pretty brutal on their level-calling all season, so I don't think they are getting any favors. I was one who took big issue with the clarity of the document for Olympics selection and 100% believe it needs to be rewritten to specify what they actually use/don't use, but from a better scoring potential, it was J/R. If you want to blame anyone for the propping, put it on Skate Canada.
skategal
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100% it was Skate Canada propping this team up.
The judges and technical panels have been quite fair and they have placements about what I expected they would for a first year team skating together for less than a year.
In other words, Skate Canada had major delusions of grandeur when it came to this team.
The judges and technical panels have been quite fair and they have placements about what I expected they would for a first year team skating together for less than a year.
In other words, Skate Canada had major delusions of grandeur when it came to this team.
Vagabond
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Blame (Skate) Canada!!!
MacMadame
Doing all the things
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She did respond though. So we are free to judge those statements.
Bouffantrex
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Same. I would die if they manage to medal at Worlds. Even though that likely means the quality of the event would have to be borderline unwatchable if this does happen. The perpetually outraged will totally lose their shit (yet again)--and I am totally here for it.
People relish holding Vanessa responsible for the crimes of Cipres, simply because she didn't respond in a 100% woke way.
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kwanfan1818
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Who is holding James responsible for Cipres' crimes? From what I'm reading, people blame James for not holding Cipres responsible for Cipres' crimes and trying to save her career with him by remaining quiet.
overedge
Mayor of Carrot City
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There's nothing "woke" about taking responsibility for your own actions.
What is your angle here besides playing this constant 'I know everything and it has to be MY WAY' game, yet when people who do have actual insider information, you say things to the extent of "I don't listen to random posters on a message board"?
Vanessa does not have to respond in your way or anyone else's way. When Brennan pushes skaters to no end about how they 'should have replied' to political conflicts or other serious issues, we get a ton of
towards her for telling people how it should have been. Everyone is different. She was thrown for a huge loop with her own career and ad nauseam, she had no part in the criminal actions. What actions are you mad at now besides her not giving the reply you personally want?As has been said in other words, it really must be tiresome to be perpetually livid.
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