Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

[MarieM]

Tara is in a tough spot. She probably recognises herself a lot in the young Russian skaters. She won an OGM at 15 by outjumping her seniors, with the help of the same bodytype everyone is now criticising and the hundreds of jump repetitions everyone is also speaking out against. She also incurred career ending injuries but doesn't seem to regret them at all as they have given her the life she had
Tara wasn't doped as far as we know and didn't have to endure anyone preventing her from drinking water. But she might well be afraid of being accused of hypocrisy if she criticises anyone too loudly.

Yup and same applies to her: she shouldn't have won that medal. She was a kid. It wasn't fair to the others competing.

Let's go on with 18 years old only at the games. Maybe we'll have more LADIES skating.

 

[skategal]

Perhaps the real question should be whether the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and figure skating are compatible?? The colanders would definitely cause havoc during spins.

Eteri would be a high priestess with her hair. Lol.

 

[Seerek]

There are lots of things that Norway does a lot better than other countries in developing athletes, by making sports as accessible as possible to all, and encouraging active participation at every age. None of that has anything to do with alleged asthma medication abuse.

Yes, all of this is true, though there are still stories here and there...

(not related to asthma medication), there has been a certain cloud over Therese Johaug's 3 gold performance in Beijing due to her prior serving of a ban in 2017-2018 (a couple American outlets bringing it up since Jessie Diggins won silver behind Johaug in the 30km).

And there's always been murmurs of 1500m gold medalist Jakob Ingebrigtsen as well (never substantiated).

 

[Frau Muller]

Let's go on with 18 years old only at the games. Maybe we'll have more LADIES skating.

Then Juniors will be most interesting…the true elite level for females, from the tech perspective. Senior would become the new World Pro level. Bring back the Denise Biellmans and Yuka Satos!

 

[Karen-W]

I think what bothered me about Tara's comment last night regarding the age limit is that it fails to recognize one major difference between when she competed and now is the establishment of WADA and this entire "protected person" status for athletes under the age of 16.

That changes the equation from simply "well, the peak for skaters is 15-17", which is essentially what her view is - and I get it in the context of not only her own win but the fact that her win was sandwiched between Baiul and Hughes, who were also in that same narrow age window when they won, and then coupled with her work as a commentator beginning with, once again, young ladies in that same narrow age window winning the Olympics. When you consider that 6 of the 9 women who have won the Olympics in the last 30 years are in that age range, is she really wrong to draw the conclusion that 15-17 IS the peak age for ladies' skaters?

None of that changes the central issue here, though, which is the conflict that exists between WADA's "protected person" status, the new rules/interpretation that the CAS Ad-hoc panel created, and the "irreparable harm" caused by so many, to not just Kamila, but the other competitors, and the sport in general. I wish that Tara had been willing to acknowledge that these factors do change the conversation from merely "what is the peak age for ladies skaters?"

 

[Frau Muller]

WADA should remove the “protected” bs.

 

[Vagabond]

Right. It might be worth it for Tara, but what about the other girls she skated against who weren't Tara? What happened to them?

You have to ask?!

 

[DreamSkates]

One last post for me with a link to a well-thought out summary article on the questions about doping. It's not just about Valieva but the entire system both national and international.
Also, for me - maybe I've just been too dreamy-eyed and naive about sports, but it is apparent that there are many athletes who can take a number of approved chemical substances (drugs) to "survive" the rigorous training regimens (see article). This begs the question of the difference between surviving rigorous training which would possibly enable an athlete to push their own boundaries and their sport with enhanced performance versus taking a drug that obviously enhances performance.

But I am hanging on to my 3rd row seat for Stars on Ice in April!

Please read this in its ENTIRETY. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/russian-doping-isnt-the-only-problem-in-figure-skating/

 

[Karen-W]

WADA should remove the “protected” bs.

Or, you know, keep it but don't let any "protected persons" compete at the Olympics in any sport. Now, how you accomplish that, I'm not sure. I don't think WADA can carve out an exemption to their "protected person" category based upon each sport's own age minimums, so I think it is easier/better for the IOC to just tell the IFs "your Olympic athletes must be at least 16."

 

[giselle23]

Bach may have promised the American team skater the medal ceremonies of their dreams, but he can't deliver that. Their dreams were to stand on a podium at the Olympics alongside clean athletes.

This is one of the reasons I find it so frustrating that there has been so much focus on the harm to Valieva. There is harm to others and to the sport.

Agree. Here's a question I haven't seen yet. Why did the IOC allow an athlete to compete when there was still a drug test result pending? And why wasn't more done to expedite the results of that test? If the results had been known before the Olympics began, the suspension decision would have been made without the whole world watching and presumably (hopefully), Kamila would have been provisionally suspended. Russia had two other skaters who could place first in the team event and the result likely would have been the same, the athletes would have their gotten medals and Anna Shcherbakova would still be the Olympic champion.

 

[pinky166]

Kamila’s post thanking her coaching team on Instagram was triggering

 

[On My Own]

Almost every religion is anti-LGBTQ, formally. Grounded in patriarchy and strict rules about sex and women, the major religions impose structures against homosexual (their word) behavior that contradicts that prescription for heterosexual family life. I wouldn’t want to be a gay Muslim, Orthodox Jew, Catholic, Eastern orthodox, Baptist, Mormon, Pentecostal, Hindu or many others. Even the liberal denominations like the Anglicans are faced with schisms on the issue.

So yes Islam is anti-gay and so is everyone else.

And? Could you point out where precisely I said that Islam's anti-LGBTQ+ outlook is unique? Why did you try to change the topic of Islam's compatibility with skating (and the related segues to polyamorous Muslims), and people possessing limited world views if they disagree with it (largely coming from Americans and Canadians, I see) to this?

What I did say, however, is that the pro-LGBTQ+ outlook of Islam is a product of the Western world. It comes from a mixture of Western progressive ideology and the reinterpretation of Islamic law. This isn't necessarily the case with a lot of the other religions you mentioned. I am specifically pointing out that if you limit yourself to this progressive outlook of Islam and pretend it's to do with 8 billion different people - well no, you won't find that at all outside the Western world. So stop saying that, or at least stop trying to say it's the others who have a limited world view.

And please know that not everyone around the world has the same outlook on religion and the people who follow it as North Americans and Europeans, nor is there necessarily a need to censor yourself about it, most certainly not motivated by the same events. If someone criticises Islam, for me there's no need for someone to come to me and shout "ALL RELIGIONS DO THIS" (whether true or not).

ETA: Oh, and even I know Hinduism isn't necessarily anti-LGBT lol. There was never a religious ban on it.

 

[pinky166]

Also my 2 cents. The age limit question is a separate issue. The bigger issue is holding everyone at the Olympics to the same rules and standards. So that can be achieved by continuing to allow people under 18 to compete and simply disqualifying them should they test positive on a drug test or do anything else against the rules.

 

[Lemonade20]

Also my 2 cents. The age limit question is a separate issue. The bigger issue is holding everyone at the Olympics to the same rules and standards. So that can be achieved by continuing to allow people under 18 to compete and simply disqualifying them should they test positive on a drug test or do anything else against the rules.

It was a total gong show what happened. I feel for Kamila, that was very hard to see her in pain.

 

[Primorskaya]

One last post for me with a link to a well-thought out summary article on the questions about doping. It's not just about Valieva but the entire system both national and international.
Also, for me - maybe I've just been too dreamy-eyed and naive about sports, but it is apparent that there are many athletes who can take a number of approved chemical substances (drugs) to "survive" the rigorous training regimens (see article). This begs the question of the difference between surviving rigorous training which would possibly enable an athlete to push their own boundaries and their sport with enhanced performance versus taking a drug that obviously enhances performance.

But I am hanging on to my 3rd row seat for Stars on Ice in April!

Please read this in its ENTIRETY. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/russian-doping-isnt-the-only-problem-in-figure-skating/

Great stuff. That's pretty much everything I ever thought in the maelstrom of the past two weeks, but concisely put!
These two quotes in particular:
"...the athletes’ exhausting training regimens harmed them far more than most performance boosters,” he wrote. "The real purpose of doping is not to build muscles, but rather to help the body recover from competition or survive the rigours of training. In other words, it was a trade-off: athletes started doping when the potential harm of overtraining exceeded the potential harm of taking drugs.”
"What was particularly interesting in the early days of the Valieva discourse was how, for a brief period of time, the doping story made the training abuse more legible."

That's an important point. I think for many people the doping revelation was the confirmation that yes, your eyes aren't deceiving you, there's something immoral and also illegal going on there. Which feels bloody obvious now, but then hindsight is always 20/20. The total lack of reaction from the ISU or any regulating body didn't help.

As for the clear explanation from Rodchenkov on why yes, there are reasons why skaters would take PEDs, that should put to rest once and for all the BS "but figure skaters wouldn't benefit from doping" line.

 

[once_upon]

Kamila is the fall guy here because the system failed her. It maybe as has been discussed, a failure to do the tapering of the PED soon enough to eliminate it in the drug analysis or miscalculated of her individual renal function or any other manipulation that resulted in a positive sample.

I think that part of the discussion should be - did she knowingly take these substances? We can assume, by previous skaters of the Sambo -70, that foods/fluids are restricted, that she may have gotten protein packets/shakes. It's not a stretch to believe the TMZ and other substances were in those placed in the formulation of those.

Absorption and excretion of those substances can be greatly impacted by fluid intake/renal function.

I'm not sure Kamila knew about the doping. I think it is solely on her team of coaches and doctors.

It's past time that the medals were awarded. The pure joy iof the Olympic medal ceremony in the Olympic setting for others is lost.

 

[MarieM]

Also my 2 cents. The age limit question is a separate issue. The bigger issue is holding everyone at the Olympics to the same rules and standards. So that can be achieved by continuing to allow people under 18 to compete and simply disqualifying them should they test positive on a drug test or do anything else against the rules.

It's not when the age issue was central to create two distinct set of rules. Under 16 are not subjected to same rules as over 16. That's a clear barrier. Add to that uping the age in gymnastic has helped that sport finally evolve.
Figure skating NEEDS this. Girls who are thrown out after use isn't something to be proud of.

 

[Nadya]

Right. It might be worth it for Tara, but what about the other girls she skated against who weren't Tara? What happened to them? Maybe it will be even worse for the Russian girls who don't win any medal and nearly die trying. What happened to Yulia was so sad.

What is your solution? This is not a team sport. Podium slots are limited. I mean it surely isn't healthy to enter a competition sport with the expectation that EVERYONE should medal.

 

[antmanb]

What is your solution? This is not a team sport. Podium slots are limited. I mean it surely isn't healthy to enter a competition sport with the expectation that EVERYONE should medal.

Do you even try to understand the posts you respond to?

Your post makes no sense at all in the context of what you quoted.

 

[soogar]

Yup and same applies to her: she shouldn't have won that medal. She was a kid. It wasn't fair to the others competing.

Let's go on with 18 years old only at the games. Maybe we'll have more LADIES skating.

Michelle won worlds when she was a 15 and was only 17 years old in Nagano. That same logic applies to her as well.

 

[giselle23]

Michelle won worlds when she was a 15 and was only 17 years old in Nagano. That same logic applies to her as well.

If age is the factor, yes. But if a failed drug test is, then the logic is different. As for 15 years olds like Michelle, under 6.0, the judges had a way of holding skaters back on the second mark until they showed a "mature" presentation. That is why Michelle, at age 14, wasn't on the podium at Worlds 1995 after two clean skates, and why Frank Carroll recommended make-up and a more grown-up look for her in terms of costume and programs in 1996.

 

[hanca]

Kamila’s post thanking her coaching team on Instagram was triggering

It will turn out that Tutberidze and her team didn’t drug her after all… the fact is that there drugs in her body. The rest of it (Tutberidze is drugging her skaters) are assumptions which a few people assumed, and the rest willingly repeated because it fits into what they want to believe. But we still don’t know the truth how it got into her body. Even if Tutberidze have been already found guilty by the public opinion here.

 

[PRlady]

It will turn out that Tutberidze and her team didn’t drug her after all… the fact is that there drugs in her body. The rest of it (Tutberidze is drugging her skaters) are assumptions which a few people assumed, and the rest willingly repeated because it fits into what they want to believe. But we still don’t know the truth how it got into her body. Even if Tutberidze have been already found guilty by the public opinion here.

We have an old saying in English that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

You are right that there is no proof that Eteri was drugging her skaters. But we know she harshly restricts food and water, demands training through injury and disposes of her stars every couple of years. It is not therefore illogical to assume that drugging is part of her arsenal. And certainly it is in the surrounding athletic culture.

In other words, the fact that the vast majority of knowledgeable fans wouldn’t put it past her speaks volumes.

 

[hanca]

We have an old saying in English that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

You are right that there is no proof that Eteri was drugging her skaters. But we know she harshly restricts food and water, demands training through injury and disposes of her stars every couple of years. It is not therefore illogical to assume that drugging is part of her arsenal. And certainly it is in the surrounding athletic culture.

In other words, the fact that the vast majority of knowledgeable fans wouldn’t put it past her speaks volumes.

But does it walk like a duck? The fact that her method are abusive (overtraining, diet) does not necessarily mean that she also drugs skaters. And especially when they appeared unprepared for what happened. If Tutberidze was aware of the possibility of something like this happening, she would have a reasonable excuse ready. They didn’t have anything ready, and Tutberidze always plans for every detail… to me it seems pretty clear that it is not as posters here are hoping it to be. Repeating your indignation about it will not make it miraculously the truth.

 

[Elka]

I find it hard to believe that there would be such an unprofessional approach. The coach not knowing what the skater is doing and the skater with this grandpa story. Also taking into account the Russian "this is not doping, it is protecting the skaters" thinking. So if Tutberidze and her team didn't drug her, they were really unprofessional letting all this happen.

As Zhulin said, sometimes it just stays in your organism a long time.

 

[MacMadame]

So any updates on Valieva's and on when the US, Japan & Canada can get their medals?She

She posted on Instagram yesterday/today. It was all about how wonderful her team is. It was a bit ? tbh.

Eteri would be a high priestess with her hair. Lol.

No, she'd be the Fallen Angel cast out for trying to take over a la Satan in the Christian religion.

I think that part of the discussion should be - did she knowingly take these substances? We can assume, by previous skaters of the Sambo -70, that foods/fluids are restricted, that she may have gotten protein packets/shakes. It's not a stretch to believe the TMZ and other substances were in those placed in the formulation of those.

We know the girls take "vitamins" given to them by the team doctor. That's all it takes.

We have an old saying in English that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

Also, if the shoe fits, wear it.

The vast majority of the time, when an athlete dopes, they do with some complicity from their coaching team. Why should this situation be any different?

 

[Karen-W]

But does it walk like a duck? The fact that her method are abusive (overtraining, diet) does not necessarily mean that she also drugs skaters. And especially when they appeared unprepared for what happened. If Tutberidze was aware of the possibility of something like this happening, she would have a reasonable excuse ready. They didn’t have anything ready, and Tutberidze always plans for every detail… to me it seems pretty clear that it is not as posters here are hoping it to be. Repeating your indignation about it will not make it miraculously the truth.

I agree, Tutberidze does plan for every detail. But, I also think, if you've been getting away with this and had the tapering & timing of the doping down and hadn't had a single test come back positive in however many years, maybe you start to worry less and less and don't have much concern that this particular test result will be any different. So, yes, I can see how this would have caught Tutberidze completely flatfooted, thus the crazy grandpa's glass possible contamination story offered up during the CAS hearing.

 

[bladesofgorey]

But does it walk like a duck? The fact that her method are abusive (overtraining, diet) does not necessarily mean that she also drugs skaters. And especially when they appeared unprepared for what happened. If Tutberidze was aware of the possibility of something like this happening, she would have a reasonable excuse ready. They didn’t have anything ready, and Tutberidze always plans for every detail… to me it seems pretty clear that it is not as posters here are hoping it to be. Repeating your indignation about it will not make it miraculously the truth.

Let me ask you this: WHY would Sambo 70 have a team doctor that's so involved with the skaters that he sits in the Kiss and Cry with them sometimes that's already pled guilty to systematic doping of a Russian sports team? Seems like more than a minor oversight on her part to employ such a person so closely, no?

 

[Trillian]

But does it walk like a duck?

Yes. And at this point every single adult who’s still hell-bent on making excuses for this woman is complicit in allowing her to continue abusing children.

 

[AJ Skatefan]

Let me ask you this: WHY would Sambo 70 have a team doctor that's so involved with the skaters that he sits in the Kiss and Cry with them sometimes that's already pled guilty to systematic doping of a Russian sports team? Seems like more than a minor oversight on her part to employ such a person so closely, no?

A team anesthesiologist, no less? Not a sports medicine doctor, not an orthopedic doctor?