U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[Barbara Manatee]

Rafael Arutyunyan: To be honest, I don’t even have the words to describe how outraged I’m. That’s not because I worked with Ilia and did everything possible for him to achieve such a level of result. I have never been engaged in protectionism in relation to the athletes I work with, and even more so I’m not going to do it now. But Ilia placed second at the National Championships. Second!!!

Oh Raf, you adorable hypocrite.

 

[misskarne]

Meh. Brown's original coach (Kori Ade) had zilch in the way of political power when Brown was named to the 2014 Olympic team over Max Aaron (who had won senior nationals the year before) and Josh Farris. Both Aaron and Farris trained in Colorado Springs, which was (and is) a very politically connected area for skating.

As I noted in another thread, in 2014 the main contenders actually had a very surprisingly similar body of work from the GP, including Jason, and Max was the only contender who had actually been to Worlds and 4CC (the other Worlds/4CC attendees from the previous season had skated themselves out of contention and Abbott had not been named to Worlds and refused the 4CC assignment).

Josh wasn't one of the contenders by Nationals because he had suffered an ankle injury that caused him to withdraw from his first GP assignment and finish 11th at his second.

Max was hobbled by USFS changing their attitude mid-season from "you must have a quad to qualify for the Olympics" to "no we only want artists", as well as his own pursuit of adding the 4T not going well, and his designs for his Carmen FS being thwarted by Lori Nichol (as well as a surprisingly large number of people not actually liking his very fun, full of character salsa SP).

When Jason laid down Riverdance at US Nats, there wasn't enough to argue that Max should be sent instead - especially since he already wasn't well-liked. There is the story that Tom Z tried to re-time the start of Abbott's free skate to try and get him disqualified (though I'm fairly sure a late start was just a deduction at this point) but was unsuccessful.

 

[Trillian]

You didn't! However, Jason and Ilia were in similar positions back in 2014 when Jason was named to the Olympic team without any kind of coach pull. I believe (and hope) that coach pull is of relatively small importance.

I agree that coach influence has limited importance (and even if it does, I’m not sure how much influence Wilson/Orser would have relative to some of the top American coaches in a decision like this).

But Jason came into 2014 nationals in a very different position than Ilia did this year. There was a lot less depth in the field in 2014 and results hadn’t been stellar over the four years prior. And then on top of that, Jason had competed on the senior level with scores and results on par with the other top men. Ilia had the disadvantage of competing against three GP finalists while his own senior debut didn’t go as well. If we’d had a stronger mens field in 2014 or if Jason hadn’t done as much on the senior level in the fall, it’s possible he would’ve been passed over too.

 

[thvu]

Oh Raf, you adorable hypocrite.

How is he a hypocrite? He told Wagner that Nagasu deserved to go to the Olympics in 2014 over her.

And it’s not comparable to Minor & Rippon in 2018 in any meaningful way.

 

[Karen-W]

How is he a hypocrite? He told Wagner that Nagasu deserved to go to the Olympics in 2014 over her.

And it’s not comparable to Minor & Rippon in 2018 in any meaningful way.

It really isn't comparable to 2018. Miner wouldn't have qualified into any priority group based on his fall international scores. Malinin (and Ma) at least had that going for them.

 

[Cherub721]

How is he a hypocrite? He told Wagner that Nagasu deserved to go to the Olympics in 2014 over her.

That's awesome

 

[soogar]

I wonder about the role of Brown's popularity among once-every-four-years-fans. Perhaps NBC is relieved to be able to hype Brown instead of Malinin.

I mean, no offense but there is zero proof that Jason brings in some special publicity/sponsorship or viewership at all. Compared to Nathan, he has very little sponsors. Jason Brown has been skating for longer than Nathan has and has not helped the popularity of figure skating in the US. Nathan's influence extends outside of the US where figure skating is actually appreciated though. Check the number of Russian, Korean or even Japanese skaters who count him as an idol. Our little quadg0d himself is a pretty big Nathan fanboy too.

Though I'm not sure why Jason is suddenly going to lead to a resurgence of figure skating popularity with the same triples he's been doing for a decade, in a post-Nathan era where people expected the US champ to land 4-5 quads regularly. If anything Jason's getting tons of crap from causal 4 year fans who think Ilia should have went to the Olympics over him and USFS should support the future and not sentimental favorites.

I think Jason needs to take a page out of the Adam Rippon playbook and start doing tons of media. Adam has said in interviews that was the first thing he had done after being named to the team. Jason has nothing to lose since he’s not going to win an individual medal. If he skates in the team event and goes clean, everyone will think that he was robbed. Fans still fixate on clean performances .

 

[tony]

I think Jason needs to take a page out of the Adam Rippon playbook and start doing tons of media. Adam has said in interviews that was the first thing he had done after being named to the team. Jason has nothing to lose since he’s not going to win an individual medal. If he skates in the team event and goes clean, everyone will think that he was robbed. Fans still fixate on clean performances .

I 100% agree that it worked well for Weir in 2010 and especially Rippon in 2018- he was the third of three US men in the individual event (and Chen was there!) but his name was everywhere. Of course, Rippon also had the 'no thanks' sound byte that really helped him. I was reading old posts and at myself when I came across my comment around then saying he would likely show up on an episode of RPDR and then quiet down.

But Brown doesn't have that type of personality, so it's not likely that he's going to get a ton of media attention, and it's not likely that the four-year fans will be screaming robbery for him as they did for Weir and Rippon

If anything, LeDuc may have fallen into that spot of media attention completely unintentionally thanks to Zhulin's mood.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

How is he a hypocrite? He told Wagner that Nagasu deserved to go to the Olympics in 2014 over her.

And it’s not comparable to Minor & Rippon in 2018 in any meaningful way.

I mean, it’s comparable if your emphasis is only on finishing second, which is what this quote emphasizes. I don’t think it’s genuinely comparable. But yes, Ross Miner also finished second.

 

[Marco]

How is he a hypocrite? He told Wagner that Nagasu deserved to go to the Olympics in 2014 over her.

I didn't know that, and I don't agree (Ashley was arguably US #1 heading into Nationals), but how Raf is that.

 

[Marco]

It really isn't comparable to 2018. Miner wouldn't have qualified into any priority group based on his fall international scores. Malinin (and Ma) at least had that going for them.

Miner being top 3 ALONE would have qualified him into Group 3 using today's standards. He obviously would still have lost to Rippon when comparing international scores / BOW.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

And it’s not comparable to Minor & Rippon in 2018 in any meaningful way.

I think it is comparable. Raf says it is wildly unprofessional and outrageous to send the 4th place finisher over the silver medalist - exactly what was done in 2018. Did he give outraged interviews and call Ross Minor to apologize on behalf of American figure skating? If so, I apologize to him.

 

[Marco]

But Brown doesn't have that type of personality, so it's not likely that he's going to get a ton of media attention, and it's not likely that the four-year fans will be screaming robbery for him as they did for Weir and Rippon

If anything, LeDuc may have fallen into that spot of media attention completely unintentionally thanks to Zhulin's mood.

I wonder why Sinnerman did not go viral nearly as much as Riverdance did back in 2014. Even if the media isn't as interested, I would at least expect the net to go crazy over that performance at Nationals.

 

[thvu]

I think it is comparable. Raf says it is wildly unprofessional and outrageous to send the 4th place finisher over the silver medalist - exactly what was done in 2018. Did he give outraged interviews and call Ross Minor to apologize on behalf of American figure skating? If so, I apologize to him.

If you’re not willing to give all the quotes context, then there’s no reason to continue this. You know he mentioned more than just the placements, but you’re emphasizing that because it falsely gives you just cause to attack him.

 

[bcash]

I wonder why Sinnerman did not go viral nearly as much as Riverdance did back in 2014. Even if the media isn't as interested, I would at least expect the net to go crazy over that performance at Nationals.

Speaking as someone to whom the name Sinnerman is just a string of letters, I find the program to be just another Jason Brown program. Enjoyable to watch for his qualities. What was supposed to be the viral thing about it?

 

[becca]

I think it is comparable. Raf says it is wildly unprofessional and outrageous to send the 4th place finisher over the silver medalist - exactly what was done in 2018. Did he give outraged interviews and call Ross Minor to apologize on behalf of American figure skating? If so, I apologize to him.

He didn’t just mention second. He said that Ilias performance could have landed him on the medal stand at the Olympics.

Not getting into the Miner argument but what Ilia did was potentially astounding

 

[Barbara Manatee]

Yes, Raf also said that because Ilia scored much higher than Jason and might have the chance to medal at the Olympics, he should have been sent over Jason. It's a reasonable argument. But he expends a lot of his outrage on the indefensibilty of sending #4 over #2, which as far as I recall, he didn't object to 4 years ago. I believe the identical placements in 2018 and 2022 do make the situations comparable.

I emphasized that part because that's the part of his interview I find hypocritical. It wasn't meant as an attack - notice I called him adorable. He is doing his job as a coach, laying the groundwork for Ilia to get all the opportunities available in the future.

 

[misskarne]

I wonder why Sinnerman did not go viral nearly as much as Riverdance did back in 2014. Even if the media isn't as interested, I would at least expect the net to go crazy over that performance at Nationals.

I think it could at the Olympics. It's an incredibly energetic program that is visibly more difficult than anything else anyone is doing and Jason does it so well.

 

[zebobes]

The definition of viral has also changed so much since eight years ago. The amount of content that is online is completely different now, how many times a video has to be viewed has changed too.

There are so many factors involved in making a video go viral, it's not something that you can predict and recreate, even if you're as talented as Jason.

Also, it was the boundless joy and exuberance in the national's performance that captured everyone's attention. While Jason is a much better skater now, he did not have the same joy and freedom at Nationals.

 

[Trillian]

But Brown doesn't have that type of personality, so it's not likely that he's going to get a ton of media attention, and it's not likely that the four-year fans will be screaming robbery for him as they did for Weir and Rippon

I agree that his personality is pretty much the opposite of theirs - he strikes me as someone whose first instinct is to avoid any kind of controversy. It’s nice to see him repping the LGBTQ community and speaking up on a few other issues these days, but there’s nothing impulsive or off-the-cuff about any of it. But he’s good at social media, his programs have crowd-favorite potential, and I can see the feel-good story they’re going to craft around him. He seems savvy enough to capitalize if anything gets mainstream traction.

If anything, LeDuc may have fallen into that spot of media attention completely unintentionally thanks to Zhulin's mood.

LeDuc has been a really smart and well-spoken advocate for a couple of years now. They interview very well. I think they could make a huge impact with the public to whatever extent they’re comfortable with the attention, but I hope the Zhulins of the world don’t drive the narrative.

 

[Karen-W]

Well, I wouldn't say he "went viral" but Malinin is up to 20,400 followers on his IG - it's bloomed by about 2k just since Sunday and while I don't know what it was before Nationals, it certainly wasn't in the 5 digits, might not have even been at 1k. So, if we're going to measure impact and attention, Malinin was certainly a big winner.

I don't know that I think Sinnerman will go viral at the Olympics. It's a great program but my money is on Adam Siao Him Fa's "Star Wars" SP being the viral hit of the WOG if he goes clean. And my second/third choices are Smart/Diaz's "Mask of Zorro" FD and Fear/Gibson's "Kiss" RD. We have to remember, regular viewers haven't seen those programs all season like we have nor would they realize that F/G's is rather derivative from both their Disco and Madonna FDs. I'm not sure anything else has the potential to go viral but we'll see.

 

[BittyBug]

Chock & Bates' RD could do it. Duh.

 

[Frau Muller]

I wonder why Sinnerman did not go viral nearly as much as Riverdance did back in 2014. Even if the media isn't as interested, I would at least expect the net to go crazy over that performance at Nationals.

Maybe because Nina Simone’s arrangement of music is an acquired taste? It’s not the standard popular gospel. Tart and rough at times. We FS fans now have it in our brains and love it but not Joe & Jane Public.

On the other hand...
Riverdance music was already a clap-happy standard in our collective conscious in 2014.

 

[lurkz2]

I've been thinking this a lot. At some point ages ago someone mentioned Brown not being with an influential USFSA club and coach - which is true, but the Cricket Club and Orser are a HIGHLY influential group when it comes to international influence.

Ilia is Malinina and Skorniakov's first major student. They have no political power, not having represented the US before. They represented Uzbekistan, which also has no political power. And prior to his death they trained with Igor Ksenofontov, who also had no political power, constantly having his top students moved to Moscow or Leningrad (half of all those Zhuk pairs in the 70s and 80s were originally his pairings. Heck he was part of Marina Klimova's coaching team in juniors).

With no political backing at all, with this complicated a selection criteria, Malinin had no shot. I am glad Raf is set up to take him on next year, I actually trust his coaching.

Is there any report that Raf "is set up to take him on next year"? Ilia has already been training with Raf for some time and already lists him as one of his coaches. He is even choreographed by Nadia Kanaeva who choreographed many of Nathan's Junior programs (including the Michael Jackson one). I have not heard that they are changing this set-up.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00108049.htm

 

[On My Own]

Speaking as someone to whom the name Sinnerman is just a string of letters, I find the program to be just another Jason Brown program. Enjoyable to watch for his qualities. What was supposed to be the viral thing about it?

Sinnerman is a well-known Ailey piece (from Revelations), and Rohene Ward cited it as an inspiration for Brown's SP.

I don't think Brown has done a good job at presenting the kind of movement and musicality that should be associated with such a piece. It looks cutesy. I don't think it will go viral, because there are exactly people like you who neither know what it is, nor will they care when they see Brown skating it.


ETA: And also... I find it funny that a lot of Brown stans became experts on all things Alvin Ailey, and about African American artistry, as a way to seek moral highground with this program, when a lot of them couldn't even tell the inspiration of the piece at a glance.

 

[Tavi]

How is he a hypocrite? He told Wagner that Nagasu deserved to go to the Olympics in 2014 over her.

And it’s not comparable to Minor & Rippon in 2018 in any meaningful way.

Why does telling Ashley that save him from being a hypocrite? I would see the parallel if he made public statements that Mirai should have gone and apologized to Mirai and her family. If he did so, I missed it.

As to Ross, like Mirai and like Ilia, he skated and placed far above expectations and wasn’t selected because the fourth place finishers were considered to have stronger bodies of work. The only difference is that this time, the skater Raf worked with didn’t benefit from the decision.

 

[soogar]

Sinnerman is a well-known Ailey piece (from Revelations), and Rohene Ward cited it as an inspiration for Brown's SP.

I don't think Brown has done a good job at presenting the kind of movement and musicality that should be associated with such a piece. It looks cutesy. I don't think it will go viral, because there are exactly people like you who neither know what it is, nor will they care when they see Brown skating it.

I don't care for his Schindler's List program either. I know people criticized Kolyada's program, but I actually thought that he conveyed the seriousness of the theme. I felt Brown's Schindler's list was all about jazz hands and his usual choreo. He does it well but falls short of conveying the emotions that Lipnitskaya and Miyahara had.

 

[bcash]

Sinnerman is a well-known Ailey piece (from Revelations), and Rohene Ward cited it as an inspiration for Brown's SP.

I don't think Brown has done a good job at presenting the kind of movement and musicality that should be associated with such a piece. It looks cutesy. I don't think it will go viral, because there are exactly people like you who neither know what it is, nor will they care when they see Brown skating it.


ETA: And also... I find it funny that a lot of Brown stans became experts on all things Alvin Ailey, and about African American artistry, as a way to seek moral highground with this program, when a lot of them couldn't even tell the inspiration of the piece at a glance.

Oh interesting! If so then I agree with you, there's nothing in this program that evinced anything from Revelations.

And no Ailey-association would spark anything that fits today's internet standard of "viral".

 

[On My Own]

And no Ailey-association would spark anything that fits today's internet standard of "viral".

Very sadly, yes. I love Ailey repertoires, but nothing of its aesthetic probably speaks to the demographic that makes things go "viral" nowadays.

Oh interesting! If so then I agree with you, there's nothing in this program that evinced anything from Revelations.

I simply have to laugh at the people pointing at random arm positions as "Horton" and "Ailey".

 

[Karen-W]

As to Ross, like Mirai and like Ilia, he skated and placed far above my expectations and wasn’t selected because the fourth place finishers were considered to have stronger bodies of work. The only difference is that this time, the skater Raf worked with didn’t benefit from the decision.

Fixed that for you. All fall you persisted in dismissing Ilia as having the potential to skate into the top 5 despite several competitions during the fall that clearly indicated he had the ability to do exactly what he did over the weekend. No, he hadn't put it quite all together at any of the 4 competitions preceding Nationals but none of the US men had been beacons of consistency themselves. You were and continue to remain one of the strongest Brown proponents around here, so I can see why you had your blinders on and refused to believe Ilia's potential to beat him, but at least be honest enough to admit, post-Nationals, that what several of us were saying with regard to Ilia's potential did, in fact, turn out to be true. Anyone following the criteria updates I posted would have known that there were 2-4 guys (Ilia, Jimmy, Camden, and Tomoki), going into Nationals, who had the potential to do that if they put it all together or if Jason had another 2018 Nats-style meltdown. And, it isn't as if Jason DID skate brilliantly at Nationals. He had a FS that was about the same as he has had ALL season. And we certainly have enough data points on him to know exactly where his Nats SP & FS performances are going to score internationally - in the ~265 range. There was nothing earthshaking or groundbreaking about it. Ilia DID skate appreciably better than he had all season, though that potential was always there. And, frankly, it's appalling that the raw, youthful potential he displayed over the weekend wasn't rewarded with the Olympics spot.

I thought I was over it, this ill-advised decision the USFS made, but posts like yours, where you are wilfully forgetting and dismissing the many conversations had in this very thread throughout the fall, ones you participated in, where you continuously downplayed Ilia's potential, and are now calling Raf a hypocrite for being upset that a stellar 2nd place (with a 300+ performance in his senior Nats debut no less) wasn't rewarded over a typical performance that ended up in 4th when all the dust settled, is going to make me rage all over again. At least have the decency, in victory, to be as good of a sport about the whole situation as Ilia was in his IG Live on Monday and stop pretending that what Ilia did at Nationals was unexpected or that he placed far higher than expectations.