U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

Frau Muller

From Puerto Rico…With Love!
Messages
17,084
Sinnerman is a well-known Ailey piece (from Revelations), and Rohene Ward cited it as an inspiration for Brown's SP.

I don't think Brown has done a good job at presenting the kind of movement and musicality that should be associated with such a piece. It looks cutesy. I don't think it will go viral, because there are exactly people like you who neither know what it is, nor will they care when they see Brown skating it.


ETA: And also... I find it funny that a lot of Brown stans became experts on all things Alvin Ailey, and about African American artistry, as a way to seek moral highground with this program, when a lot of them couldn't even tell the inspiration of the piece at a glance.
As I pointed out on FSU a long time ago, when Jason first announced Sinnerman…the arrangement in the Ailey ballet is the straight-up traditional gospel sung by a male baritone with chorus (after short soprano-solo intro), rather than the jazzy-quirky Nina Simone.

Ailey ballet tune:


I recall at the time wishing that Jason & his team would’ve gone with the traditional as it would’ve been more welcoming by average listeners. Since then, I’ve learned to love Jason’s Nina Simone version!
 
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VALuvsMKwan

Wandering Goy
Messages
7,968
As I pointed out on FSU a long time ago, when Jason first announced Sinnermsn…the arrangement in the Ailey ballet is the straight-up traditional gospel sung by a male baritone (after short soprano intro), rather than the jazzy-quirky Nina Simone.
Ailey ballet tune:


I recall at the time wishing that Jason & his team would’ve gone with the traditional as it would’ve been more welcoming by average listeners. Since then, I’ve learned to love Jason’s Nina Simone version!
And here, when reading the name of the music choice, I immediately thought of the late Sarah Dash, formerly of Labelle (originally Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles) and her disco hit "Sinner Man". 👠


 

Frau Muller

From Puerto Rico…With Love!
Messages
17,084

skatingguy

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,912
I don't see Ilia Malinin's name listed anywhere before Worlds (which he can't compete at unless he gets his minimum required at one of the competitions).

They must be waiting to see if gets to go to the Olympics, and if he's not needed then they can find him a competition before Worlds so he can get the minimum score for the short program.
 

toddlj

San Jose 2023!
Messages
2,023
I don't see Ilia Malinin's name listed anywhere before Worlds (which he can't compete at unless he gets his minimum required at one of the competitions).

There are a few other events not listed on the USFS site. The ISU site lists all:
 

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,322
They must be waiting to see if gets to go to the Olympics, and if he's not needed then they can find him a competition before Worlds so he can get the minimum score for the short program.
That's my guess as well. I really hope they don't wait until Challenge Cup though because that's just a week or so before Jr Worlds and I imagine it won't be easy switching back and forth between a senior FS one week, a junior FS the next week, and then Sr Worlds 2 weeks later.
There are a few other events not listed on the USFS site. The ISU site lists all:
Yes, and the USFS assignments page didn't even list Bavarian Open until it was updated today, so any of those small events in February will work as long as there are enough men entered.
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
Messages
1,569
Fixed that for you. All fall you persisted in dismissing Ilia as having the potential to skate into the top 5 despite several competitions during the fall that clearly indicated he had the ability to do exactly what he did over the weekend. No, he hadn't put it quite all together at any of the 4 competitions preceding Nationals but none of the US men had been beacons of consistency themselves. You were and continue to remain one of the strongest Brown proponents around here, so I can see why you had your blinders on and refused to believe Ilia's potential to beat him, but at least be honest enough to admit, post-Nationals, that what several of us were saying with regard to Ilia's potential did, in fact, turn out to be true. Anyone following the criteria updates I posted would have known that there were 2-4 guys (Ilia, Jimmy, Camden, and Tomoki), going into Nationals, who had the potential to do that if they put it all together or if Jason had another 2018 Nats-style meltdown. And, it isn't as if Jason DID skate brilliantly at Nationals. He had a FS that was about the same as he has had ALL season. And we certainly have enough data points on him to know exactly where his Nats SP & FS performances are going to score internationally - in the ~265 range. There was nothing earthshaking or groundbreaking about it. Ilia DID skate appreciably better than he had all season, though that potential was always there. And, frankly, it's appalling that the raw, youthful potential he displayed over the weekend wasn't rewarded with the Olympics spot.

I thought I was over it, this ill-advised decision the USFS made, but posts like yours, where you are wilfully forgetting and dismissing the many conversations had in this very thread throughout the fall, ones you participated in, where you continuously downplayed Ilia's potential, and are now calling Raf a hypocrite for being upset that a stellar 2nd place (with a 300+ performance in his senior Nats debut no less) wasn't rewarded over a typical performance that ended up in 4th when all the dust settled, is going to make me rage all over again. At least have the decency, in victory, to be as good of a sport about the whole situation as Ilia was in his IG Live on Monday and stop pretending that what Ilia did at Nationals was unexpected or that he placed far higher than expectations.

You have been advocating for Ilia all season, and doing a very bad job of hiding your advocacy behind a cloak of statistics that you have been manipulating.

I have been watching Ilia for lot longer than two years. I have been rooting for him all that time. He performed WAAAAY above expectations.

Raf is a blowhard, he has always been a blowhard and he was a hypocrite here,.

Now I'm out of here again, so say what you will, but at least have the decency to admit why you're saying it. You have not shown that kind of self-awareness yet, but hope springs eternal.
 

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,322
You have been advocating for Ilia all season, and doing a very bad job of hiding your advocacy behind a cloak of statistics that you have been manipulating.

I have been watching Ilia for lot longer than two years. I have been rooting for him all that time. He performed WAAAAY above expectations.

Raf is a blowhard, he has always been a blowhard and he was a hypocrite here,.

Now I'm out of here again, so say what you will, but at least have the decency to admit why you're saying it. You have not shown that kind of self-awareness yet, but hope springs eternal.
Nope, I have not been manipulating any data. The data speaks for itself with regard to the Selection Criteria.

But, you go on and peace out of this thread. At least I have enough self-awareness and courage to stick around here instead of dashing away after making a snide, sanctimonious little attack all on another poster while claiming that I've (silently) been rooting for the skater in question "a lot longer." 🙄
 

Baby Yoda On Skates

Well-Known Member
Messages
991
If someone wants to "accidentally" set fire to Jason's Schindler shirt and then "accidentally" lose the USB with his music, I would send that person a gift basket.

In all seriousness though, I did find his LP to be moving at Nationals. It helped that he was moved by performing it and that helped me be not as annoyed by the choreography.
 

misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
Messages
22,367
If someone wants to "accidentally" set fire to Jason's Schindler shirt and then "accidentally" lose the USB with his music, I would send that person a gift basket.
I will confess to somewhat hoping that Jason's lost suitcases weren't going to show up in time, so that he could wear the all-grey original costume for it, which I loved much more. But that would have stressed Jason a great deal more, and he was already stressed enough.
In all seriousness though, I did find his LP to be moving at Nationals. It helped that he was moved by performing it and that helped me be not as annoyed by the choreography.
I also prefer the older choreography. But apparently the USFS officials prefer the new one and it got rave reviews at Champs Camp, which is, once again, further proof that Champs Camp is wildly out of touch with the rest of the planet.

As for alternative choreographers, I'd love to see Jason work with Shae-Lynn Bourne, or Jeff Buttle...

...or...

Joshua Farris?
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
35,427
Rohene Ward was inspired by Ailey's "Revelations." Romain Haguenauer was inspired by Angelin Preljocaj's "Le Parc." The programs they choreographed for skaters weren't meant to replications of the original dance anymore than an iconic Faun pose in Plushenko's Nijinsky tribute program represented a ballet compilation. Each program stands or falls on its own.
 

bcash

Well-Known Member
Messages
493
Rohene Ward was inspired by Ailey's "Revelations." Romain Haguenauer was inspired by Angelin Preljocaj's "Le Parc." The programs they choreographed for skaters weren't meant to replications of the original dance anymore than an iconic Faun pose in Plushenko's Nijinsky tribute program represented a ballet compilation. Each program stands or falls on its own.
Yes, but if people shared that info re.inspiration and argued for the superiority, or the potential popularity of the skating program based on where the inspiration came from, it's only natural for others to also assess the program, partly at least, on that basis. In this particular case, I do feel that P/C's FD captured and enhanced some of the spirit of "Le Parc", even though the original was a fairly mediocre work, while Jason Brown's SP did not, even though "Revelations" is pretty iconic and Ailey's masterwork. Rohene Ward could have just said, oh I liked the Simone version of that song so I used it for Jason's program.
 
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Dai's Blues for Klook

Well-Known Member
Messages
441
Also, who actually thinks Plushenko's "Nijinsky" isn't a joke in itself, lol.

Again, there have been singles skaters who really did capture the modern/contemporary/expressionist/neo-expressionist/whatever else feeling better too, and to my knowledge they didn't tout whichever "inspirations" they had either. And Ice Dancers do tend to do actual research, and work with the dance choreographers...
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
35,427
Yes, but if people shared that info re.inspiration and argued for the superiority, or the potential popularity of the skating program based on where the inspiration came from, it's only natural for others to also assess the program, partly at least, on that basis. In this particular case, I do feel that P/C's FD captured and enhanced some of the spirit of "Le Parc", even though the original was a fairly mediocre work, while Jason Brown's SP did not, even though "Revelations" is pretty iconic and Ailey's masterwork. Rohene Ward could have just said, oh I liked the Simone version of that song so I used it for Jason's program.
Whereas I think Hagenauer turned Le Parc into something pretty, rather Disneyfied, and it didn't capture the spirit of it at all. Which is fine, in fact, a very good thing, because it's a lovely program.

Sharing info about the inspiration and arguing for the superiority are two completely different things. I think Sinnerman is superior to most because of the program and the way it's skated, not at all because of what inspired it, which I've seen the Ailey company perform so many times I've stopped counting.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
35,427
Shapes, angles, and lines don't translate directly from the floor onto the ice. And they aren't really what makes that dance iconic, because there's no floor. But, whatever.
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
389

People are free to disagree. But again, since they outright set out to include some of the movement, I think they failed. It's not just vague inspiration there, anymore.

ETA: And it's fine if we disagree. I'm just giving my reasoning as to why. At the end of the day, it's a skating program, and should be viewed as such.

A skating program directly inspired by dance choreography (or whatever) is not that different from a book adapted into a movie, honestly. They’re different mediums, that will necessitate changes, sometimes things don’t translate as well to the new medium, etc. I’ve seen cases where a movie vastly changed the book’s storyline and I still enjoyed both as separate pieces of art. But in general, if you love the book, you might have a hard time with the movie, especially if it doesn’t translate like you imagined. I think that’s a pretty normal reaction.
 

bcash

Well-Known Member
Messages
493
Whereas I think Hagenauer turned Le Parc into something pretty, rather Disneyfied, and it didn't capture the spirit of it at all. Which is fine, in fact, a very good thing, because it's a lovely program.

Sharing info about the inspiration and arguing for the superiority are two completely different things. I think Sinnerman is superior to most because of the program and the way it's skated, not at all because of what inspired it, which I've seen the Ailey company perform so many times I've stopped counting.
Yeah apparently some people were arguing for the superiority based on its supposed inspiration. I find it just another "Jason Brown" program.

Interesting you said that about Le Parc and P/C's Mozart program. I didn't see the ballet in its entirety, but felt that it was just another work from a not-very-interesting choreographer, which was why I said P/C's program was probably an improvement, because it was at least very musical, using what's unique to the dynamics of skating to play with the music in a meaningful way, while nodding to the feeling of a duet in the ballet. But I don't remember P/C's coaching team touting its source of inspiration too much anyway.
 
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kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
35,427
Interesting you said that about Le Parc and P/C's Mozart program. I didn't see the ballet in its entirety, but felt that it was just another work from a not-very-interesting choreographer, which was why I said P/C's program was probably an improvement, because it was at least quite musical.
And I agree: the most memorable part of Le Parc was when the ballerina shoved her fingers down her throat.
 

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