U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[On My Own]

I don't care for his Schindler's List program either. I know people criticized Kolyada's program, but I actually thought that he conveyed the seriousness of the theme. I felt Brown's Schindler's list was all about jazz hands and his usual choreo. He does it well but falls short of conveying the emotions that Lipnitskaya and Miyahara had.

I dislike Kolyada's Schindler's List (and think it's a joke that someone potrayed the "feelings of Schindler" as a valid interpretation), but Lipnitskaya yes, and while I had my qualms with Miyahara's choreography, she still felt more authentic.

 

[Trillian]

Very sadly, yes. I love Ailey repertoires, but nothing of its aesthetic probably speaks to the demographic that makes things go "viral" nowadays.

I simply have to laugh at the people pointing at random arm positions as "Horton" and "Ailey".

The only program I remember getting any kind of “viral”-type attention in 2018 was Ivett Toth’s AC/DC(?) SP, so yeah, wrong aesthetic. It’s going to be pop music if it’s anything, so maybe Chock & Bates have a shot.

I wouldn’t evaluate any of these skaters against the standards of actual dancers. They’re athletes incorporating some dance elements into their sport, not professional dancers. People who enjoy Jason or anyone else’s skating programs are enjoying them within the standards figure skating choreography and performance, not dance. When skating programs do go viral, it’s for the same reason that gymnastics floor routines do once in a while, and not because the public is suddenly real excited about modern dance.

 

[Karen-W]

The only program I remember getting any kind of “viral”-type attention in 2018 was Ivett Toth’s AC/DC(?) SP, so yeah, wrong aesthetic. It’s going to be pop music if it’s anything, so maybe Chock & Bates have a shot.

I wouldn’t evaluate any of these skaters against the standards of actual dancers. They’re athletes incorporating some dance elements into their sport, not professional dancers. People who enjoy Jason or anyone else’s skating programs are enjoying them within the standards figure skating choreography and performance, not dance. When skating programs do go viral, it’s for the same reason that gymnastics floor routines do once in a while, and not because the public is suddenly real excited about modern dance.

The Browns "Nothing Else Matters" FD last season was a viral hit, same with James/Cipres "Sound of Silence" FS from several seasons ago, and, of course, Jason's "Riverdance".

I do agree with your thought process on what makes skating programs go viral has little to do with the public suddenly being really excited about modern dance. It isn't necessarily pop music but music that is somewhat embedded in the public's mind - whether that be Riverdance or Metallica or Disturbed. That's why my pick for the most likely viral hit is Adam's "Star Wars" SP (if clean), Fear/Gibson's "Kiss" RD or Smart/Diaz's "Mask of Zorro" FD - the public already is familiar with that music and they'll appreciate the "fun" parts of those programs. Chock/Bates might also go viral but I'd be surprised - there's no real "wow" moment in it, IMO, and Eilish's music isn't embedded in the public's mind in the same way. Of the top teams, I'd say that either Papadakis/Cizeron or Sinitsina/Katsalapov have RDs that are more likely to go viral.

 

[On My Own]

I wouldn’t evaluate any of these skaters against the standards of actual dancers.

I shouldn't need to evaluate Brown's program against the standards of actual dance, I agree. But when people associated with the program said they wanted to take inspiration from Ailey's Sinnerman, then as for me they failed, outside of a few arm movements and positions, and maybe some transitions.

If you just want to say there are people who would enjoy it anyway, then sure. But I do think it's disingenuous for people to say it's got to do with Ailey, or modern dance, or Brown conveying any of what is associated with it. If you just want to say it's a good skating program and enjoy it, then say that, without evoking those parallels. Why the rest of the hype? How is it any different from someone looking at a random ballroom video and copying some of the moves into their program? I don't usually remember some of the Ice Dancers saying they copied their moves from some famous ballroom show dance and hyping it up constantly, or from some contemporary ballet repertoire, and these people actually do a better job of learning the technique, conveying the musicality, and actually work with the dance choreographers with knowledge of the dances they are trying to emulate.

And I do think there have been single skaters who've done a better job with the modern/contemporary/expressionist dance aesthetic or at least musicality and expression. Jeremy Abbott's Lilies of the Valley isn't even that great, and he does a better job with the musicality and creativity. Yuna Kim's The Lark Ascending (another piece of music that Ailey's used by the way) did a phenomenal job of that sort of musicality. Nothing of Jason's really associates for me.

 

[thvu]

Why does telling Ashley that save him from being a hypocrite? I would see the parallel if he made public statements that Mirai should have gone and apologized to Mirai and her family. If he did so, I missed it.

As to Ross, like Mirai and like Ilia, he skated and placed far above expectations and wasn’t selected because the fourth place finishers were considered to have stronger bodies of work. The only difference is that this time, the skater Raf worked with didn’t benefit from the decision.

He said this in a public interview. I'm not sure what you want from him, unless you want him to publicly rail against the selection of his own students. Would you rather have him do that? He even spoke to Nagasu and told her what happened to her was wrong. He's not expressing disparate values at all. How does he cross the line into hypocrisy? I don't understand the need to look for reasons to criticize him when he doesn't act 100% to your expectations, and that somehow being at 75% is just too hard to swallow.

It's not the "only difference." If you're not going to acknowledge the context of his statements, then you've already decided that he's in the wrong, and nothing will change your mind.

I thought I was over it, this ill-advised decision the USFS made, but posts like yours, where you are wilfully forgetting and dismissing the many conversations had in this very thread throughout the fall, ones you participated in, where you continuously downplayed Ilia's potential, and are now calling Raf a hypocrite for being upset that a stellar 2nd place (with a 300+ performance in his senior Nats debut no less) wasn't rewarded over a typical performance that ended up in 4th when all the dust settled, is going to make me rage all over again. At least have the decency, in victory, to be as good of a sport about the whole situation as Ilia was in his IG Live on Monday and stop pretending that what Ilia did at Nationals was unexpected or that he placed far higher than expectations.

ALL OF THIS.

 

[Tavi]

Fixed that for you. All fall you persisted in dismissing Ilia as having the potential to skate into the top 5 despite several competitions during the fall that clearly indicated he had the ability to do exactly what he did over the weekend. No, he hadn't put it quite all together at any of the 4 competitions preceding Nationals but none of the US men had been beacons of consistency themselves. You were and continue to remain one of the strongest Brown proponents around here, so I can see why you had your blinders on and refused to believe Ilia's potential to beat him, but at least be honest enough to admit, post-Nationals, that what several of us were saying with regard to Ilia's potential did, in fact, turn out to be true. Anyone following the criteria updates I posted would have known that there were 2-4 guys (Ilia, Jimmy, Camden, and Tomoki), going into Nationals, who had the potential to do that if they put it all together or if Jason had another 2018 Nats-style meltdown. And, it isn't as if Jason DID skate brilliantly at Nationals. He had a FS that was about the same as he has had ALL season. And we certainly have enough data points on him to know exactly where his Nats SP & FS performances are going to score internationally - in the ~265 range. There was nothing earthshaking or groundbreaking about it. Ilia DID skate appreciably better than he had all season, though that potential was always there. And, frankly, it's appalling that the raw, youthful potential he displayed over the weekend wasn't rewarded with the Olympics spot.

I thought I was over it, this ill-advised decision the USFS made, but posts like yours, where you are wilfully forgetting and dismissing the many conversations had in this very thread throughout the fall, ones you participated in, where you continuously downplayed Ilia's potential, and are now calling Raf a hypocrite for being upset that a stellar 2nd place (with a 300+ performance in his senior Nats debut no less) wasn't rewarded over a typical performance that ended up in 4th when all the dust settled, is going to make me rage all over again. At least have the decency, in victory, to be as good of a sport about the whole situation as Ilia was in his IG Live on Monday and stop pretending that what Ilia did at Nationals was unexpected or that he placed far higher than expectations.

You know, I forced myself to wade through pages and pages of “Ilia wuz robbed, Jason sucks” comments in this thread without responding because as upset as they got me, I didn’t think responding would serve any purpose. I knew that people were disappointed. I would have been disappointed if Jason had missed out again.

But a lot of the comments in this thread went well beyond “I think the committee made the wrong decision” and were interwoven with comments about how Jason didn’t deserve it, he can’t do quads, he’s not competitive, he got gifted an Olympic spot before he retires, etc. That theme is being carried forward today by people criticizing his programs and skating, not to mention his fans, and continues the myriad criticisms people have made about him over the years (jazz hands! his smile! his behavior in the kiss n cry! etc). I’m just gonna say generally that everyone’s entitled to their opinions, but the bitchiness and self perceived superiority in some of those comments is pretty disgusting.

My comment regarding Raf was not about dissing Ilia. It was about Raf, and only about Raf. He’s certainly entitled to his opinion that Ilia should have been chosen, as are you. But I think his behavior was unprofessional regardless of how well Ilia skated, and I do think he’s something of a hypocrite. You may disagree, but that was all I meant by my response.

As to the rest of your comment, I have never hidden the fact that I’m a strong Jason fan, but I try very hard to be objective about things and do my best (though I’m not always successful) not to diss others. I never said or thought that Ilia couldn’t place well at Nats, and I never tried to “down play his potential” in my comments here. I said what I thought, just as you do. Would you expect me to do otherwise? It’s obvious to anyone who’s glanced at his Instagram that he’s super talented and has a great future. But even Nathan didn’t have a stunning senior Nats debut (he placed 8th) and at least to me, Ilia’s competitive history to date-even this season-while not bad, didn’t really show evidence that he could skate two lights out programs at Nats with the Olympics on the line. Even so, I never thought Ilia had no chance to be selected, and in my opinion the delay in the announcement confirms that. That’s really all I have to say.

 

[screech]

The only program I remember getting any kind of “viral”-type attention in 2018 was Ivett Toth’s AC/DC(?) SP, so yeah, wrong aesthetic. It’s going to be pop music if it’s anything, so maybe Chock & Bates have a shot.

For the costumes and familiarity, I could see Gilles/Poirier's Elton John RD getting out there (though I'm sadly underwhelmed with the program). Both of Smart/Diaz programs could really get well known too. I don't think anything will really go 'viral' though.

From the past decade(ish) the only program that non-skaters I know have come to me asking about was Adrian Schultheiss escaped mental patient FP from 2010.

 

[angi]

For the costumes and familiarity, I could see Gilles/Poirier's Elton John RD getting out there (though I'm sadly underwhelmed with the program). Both of Smart/Diaz programs could really get well known too. I don't think anything will really go 'viral' though.

From the past decade(ish) the only program that non-skaters I know have come to me asking about was Adrian Schultheiss escaped mental patient FP from 2010.

It's probably not the right thread for this but I think it's nearly impossible to predict what will go viral. In 2018 I thought P/C's SD will go viral or at least become very popular because they were using "Shape Of You" which was everywhere leading to the games, but it was V/M that actually went viral. This year there are things like some "Lion King" programs and of course "Mask Of Zorro" that can go viral (or even S/B using the backstreet boys), but again it's almost impossible to predict what will set social media on fire (and that's part of the excitement in a way).

 

[On My Own]

In 2018 I thought P/C's SD will go viral or at least become very popular because they were using "Shape Of Me" which was everywhere leading to the games, but it was V/M that actually went viral.

Shape of You, haha.

 

[Trillian]

Chock/Bates might also go viral but I'd be surprised - there's no real "wow" moment in it, IMO, and Eilish's music isn't embedded in the public's mind in the same way.

Weirdly enough, I think their FD has a better shot, especially if they manage to medal. A few more hipstery indie music types have already noticed that there’s an ice dance team skating to Daft Punk. It’s a cool program and I could see the general public liking it. But I have no idea, it’s so totally my kind of program that I can’t reliably gauge what anyone else will think of it.

 

[VGThuy]

Chock/Bates’ Snake FD from 2020 Nationals garnered over two million views. Not bad for a non-Olympic year. The Shibs were also a hit at the Olympics with a program many skating fans didn’t like but casual fans had no experience with them doing “Fix You” prior to “Paradise” so it was all new to them.

 

[becca]

You know, I forced myself to wade through pages and pages of “Ilia wuz robbed, Jason sucks” comments in this thread without responding because as upset as they got me, I didn’t think responding would serve any purpose. I knew that people were disappointed. I would have been disappointed if Jason had missed out again.

But a lot of the comments in this thread went well beyond “I think the committee made the wrong decision” and were interwoven with comments about how Jason didn’t deserve it, he can’t do quads, he’s not competitive, he got gifted an Olympic spot before he retires, etc. That theme is being carried forward today by people criticizing his programs and skating, not to mention his fans, and continues the myriad criticisms people have made about him over the years (jazz hands! his smile! his behavior in the kiss n cry! etc). I’m just gonna say generally that everyone’s entitled to their opinions, but the bitchiness and self perceived superiority in some of those comments is pretty disgusting.

My comment regarding Raf was not about dissing Ilia. It was about Raf, and only about Raf. He’s certainly entitled to his opinion that Ilia should have been chosen, as are you. But I think his behavior was unprofessional regardless of how well Ilia skated, and I do think he’s something of a hypocrite. You may disagree, but that was all I meant by my response.

As to the rest of your comment, I have never hidden the fact that I’m a strong Jason fan, but I try very hard to be objective about things and do my best (though I’m not always successful) not to diss others. I never said or thought that Ilia couldn’t place well at Nats, and I never tried to “down play his potential” in my comments here. I said what I thought, just as you do. Would you expect me to do otherwise? It’s obvious to anyone who’s glanced at his Instagram that he’s super talented and has a great future. But even Nathan didn’t have a stunning senior Nats debut (he placed 8th) and at least to me, Ilia’s competitive history to date-even this season-while not bad, didn’t really show evidence that he could skate two lights out programs at Nats with the Olympics on the line. Even so, I never thought Ilia had no chance to be selected, and in my opinion the delay in the announcement confirms that. That’s really all I have to say.

I have never criticized Jason’s choreography or hands. I have been vocal over the years that he is not a complete skater although I have said he is beautiful to watch.

However Jason placed fourth at nationals. He was placed on a team over a skater who placed second and finished a large margin over him.

If you are placed on a team like that there is going to be backlash. Skaters who don’t get backlash are the ones who face in the top three at nationals.

Furthemore if someone is going to be placed on a team like that it’s very fair to discuss the merits of their skating.

It’s fair to point out that his technical ability is far behind the rest of the world. It’s not necessarily his fault but it’s an issue.

And it’s also fair to question body of work when it involves comparisons to a young skate who has simpley not had the opportunity to develop a body of work.

Vincent didn’t have a body of work but he actually ended up ahead of Adam Rippon by four places at the Olympics.

Plus many keep on mentioning PCs but why not technical ability PCs tend to go up with exposure to judges.

I don’t understand why technical ability and Base value isn’t part of the criteria in determine this team. Is a complete mystery to me. The put Polina and Vincent on teams based on that and both ended up with seasons bests over Miner and Naggers quickly.

Another point to is if you make it difficult for Newcombers and to make teams over fan favorites. Many are going to get demoralized and quit. We saw that at the Michelle Kwan era. I didn’t think Michelle should just step down.

But I think they should be careful about not getting youngsters opportunities they earned.

The Japanese had their own Jason- Satako. She was not given a place on the team in favor of a youngster with more technical ability.

As for the whole Ilia need more season b. I am sorry one or two Senior bs are not enough data on a young skater. The only thing you can do is take a chance. Jason is not a medal contender so they literally had nothing to lose going with Ilia.

Body of work is fine I am not against it but when evaluating it it’s also quite fair to look at the data in regards to skaters to. The Japanese federation recognized that as beautiful as Satako was and how yes she can get some very nice PCs from judges at this point the jumps were not going to improve same could and should be recognized with Jason.

 

[On My Own]

Self-perceived superiority goes both ways. Just like someone doesn't have better taste for liking the so-called "skater's skaters", and spend time deriding the others. Which I don't have to remind, does happen.

And I will reiterate, and we are free not to see eye-to-eye. I don't see what is so amazing about not even knowing that Sinnerman was an Ailey piece, and then suddenly gaining all the knowledge in the world when Rohene Ward gave an interview about it, and dismissing people who don't like the program, some of whom didn't need to know of Brown's existence to possess knowledge about a stalwart of Modern dance like Alvin Ailey.

If people are entitled to their opinions, then we can certainly spend time trying not to dismiss and deride others with differing opinions.

 

[Tavi]

Self-perceived superiority goes both ways. Just like someone doesn't have better taste for liking the so-called "skater's skaters", and spend time deriding the others. Which I don't have to remind, does happen.

And I will reiterate, and we are free not to see eye-to-eye. I don't see what is so amazing about not even knowing that Sinnerman was an Ailey piece, and then suddenly gaining all the knowledge in the world when Rohene Ward gave an interview about it, and dismissing people who don't like the program, some of whom didn't need to know of Brown's existence to possess knowledge about a stalwart of Modern dance like Alvin Ailey.

If people are entitled to their opinions, then we can certainly spend time trying not to dismiss and deride others with differing opinions.

It’s one thing to express your opinion, although I will say the criticisms of Jason over the years, which are not limited to his skating or programs but are often directed at him personally, are tiresome.

But here you directly ridiculed “Jason stans” for pretending to be instant “experts” and trying “to seek moral highground with this program” when you could have no way of knowing what their reasons were for making comments. And based on your comments, you don’t seem to know that Sinnerman was conceived for Jason and choreographed by Rohene Ward, who is African American, and who doesn’t share your opinions. If you’re interested, you can read about it here.

Jason Brown, Rohene Ward seek to spread the light with “Sinnerman” program

When choreographer Rohene Ward contemplates a new program for Jason Brown, he asks himself: How are we trying to touch people? With frustrations in the Black community growing and COVID-19 tighteni…

olympics.nbcsports.com

 

[thvu]

You know, I forced myself to wade through pages and pages of “Ilia wuz robbed, Jason sucks” comments in this thread without responding because as upset as they got me, I didn’t think responding would serve any purpose. I knew that people were disappointed. I would have been disappointed if Jason had missed out again.

Ilia wuzrobbed ≠ Jason sucks. Please stop oversimplifying. No one here is accusing you of bashing Ilia, so please stop accusing Ilia supporters of bashing Jason.

I for one love Brown's skating. Seeing him live is such a privilege. Just because I think Ilia should be on the Oly Team doesn't mean I don't thoroughly enjoy and support Jason.

 

[Trillian]

It’s fair to point out that his technical ability is far behind the rest of the world. It’s not necessarily his fault but it’s an issue.

Jump content is not the same thing as “technical ability,” so this is going to keep being incorrect no matter how many times you say it. Jason has less jump content than many other top men, and obviously opinions differ as to how much of an “issue” that is. But he can score at or near the top of any field on all tech elements besides quad jumps. You only care about one thing and it happens to be the thing he doesn’t do as well. We get it.

 

[Tavi]

Ilia wuzrobbed ≠ Jason sucks. Please stop oversimplifying. No one here is accusing you of bashing Ilia, so please stop accusing Ilia supporters of bashing Jason.

I for one love Brown's skating. Seeing him live is such a privilege. Just because I think Ilia should be on the Oly Team doesn't mean I don't thoroughly enjoy and support Jason.

I’m glad you love Jason’s skating and I respect your opinion that Ilia should have been on the team. Frankly, although I’m happy for Jason I can see the arguments for/against his selection both ways. Although I would have been really disappointed for him if he didn’t make it - because it was so important to him, not because it was so important to me personally - I would have accepted it, just as I did in 2018. However, the fact Jason apparently found out he made the team an hour and a half before the public announcement was made suggests to me that this might not have been about Ilia v. Jason, but that’s just my guess and I have nothing to support it.

By the way, just to be clear, I wasn’t calling you out for bashing Jason, at all. There have been a lot of other posts here and elsewhere where people are bashing him. A lot of it is pretty vicious. I don’t like it. That’s all.

 

[Jammers]

I didn't know that, and I don't agree (Ashley was arguably US #1 heading into Nationals), but how Raf is that.

That sounds just like Raf to tell Ashley to her face that she didn't deserve to go to the Olympics with the way she skated. He is after all russian.

 

[VGThuy]

Who else is hoping against hope that Jason decides to go back to The Scent of Love LP? It’s probably too late now, but I’m not feeling anything about Schindler’s List. From the costume to the choreography.

 

[Impromptu]

Who else is hoping against hope that Jason decides to go back to The Scent of Love LP? It’s probably too late now, but I’m not feeling anything about Schindler’s List. From the costume to the choreography.

Too late, and this would be the 4th season he's used it (granted he only used it for one competition in 2018). The bigger problem is that David Wilson is a terrible match for him. Schindler's List is the best of the LPs he's choreographed (still wincing over Simon and Garfunkle) and I think that one only partially works because Jason loves the music so much.

Editing to add - Rohene knows how to push Jason into more creative directions, and he's so detail oriented that his programs for Jason are on a different level than anyone else. I really would have liked to have seen what Shae-Lynn Bourne could do... or even Kurt Browning if they wanted to go in an upbeat direction.

 

[Willin]

While I maintain that Jason + Rohene is the dream team, I agree that ShaeLynn and Jason would also be pretty exciting. I consider David Wilson and Lori Nichol to be very boring and Old Fashioned. When you have a skater as talented as Jason - a skater who can do just about any movement ever invented to be done on ice - you need to give him better material than what the old guard of choreographers can do. And that's my problem with Schindler's list: Jason is far from a boring skater and this music is obviously important to him, but the program is just so, so boring in a way Jason has never bored me before.

But as for Kolyada vs Jason, there are two reasons I favor Jason's: 1. The international judges LOVE Jason's version, so why would Kolyada open himself up to that comparison? It was a bad move politically. 2. I do respect that the program's music is about an absolutely horrific thing that primarily affected one group of people. I am much more comfortable with people from that heritage telling the story than people without a direct connection to it.

 

[VGThuy]

I did like Kolyada's costume as it seemed appropriate and not invoking the more shocking elements of the film/history. I think he wasn't portraying a victim of the Holocaust or anyone of the Jewish faith/heritage. He seemed to be packaged as Oscar Schindler himself. Maybe that's still problematic, but for figure skating, it's refreshing to see a program to SL that doesn't have skaters in rags or ashes or in camp wear, etc.

 

[missing]

Why can't music just be music?

 

[baramin]

Rohene and Jason work incredibly together, but I always hoped for a Tom Dickson program from Jason—given what he did with Matt Savoie, I think it would have resulted in something interestingly beautiful

 

[Tavi]

I did like Kolyada's costume as it seemed appropriate and not invoking the more shocking elements of the film/history. I think he wasn't portraying a victim of the Holocaust or anyone of the Jewish faith/heritage. He seemed to be packaged as Oscar Schindler himself. Maybe that's still problematic, but for figure skating, it's refreshing to see a program to SL that doesn't have skaters in rags or ashes or in camp wear, etc.

I’m not sure what the reason for the change was, but I don’t like Jason’s current SL costume at all. I also don’t like this year’s choreography- I thought the 2020 choreo was much better / told a more moving story. Sadly, they didn’t ask me.

 

[VGThuy]

I’m not sure what the reason for the change was, but I don’t like Jason’s current SL costume at all. I also don’t like this year’s choreography- I thought the 2020 choreo was much better / told a more moving story. Sadly, they didn’t ask me.

Imagine if they asked fans to consult them on programs and costumes. They'll have a thousand contrasting opinions and just end up confused, poor things. Despite my own misgivings, I do know the most important thing is that Jason himself loves what he's skating to and is comfortable with the choreography to maximize his abilities to perform the program and all of his elements well.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Jason is far from a boring skater and this music is obviously important to him, but the program is just so, so boring in a way Jason has never bored me before.

Did you miss the Slaughter on 10th Avenue program? Now THAT was a program that was wildly beneath him. I'm so glad it's gone.

 

[Willin]

@Theatregirl1122 I didn't miss it, rather I conveniently forgot it existed. It's better that way.

 

[skatingguy]

Did you miss the Slaughter on 10th Avenue program? Now THAT was a program that was wildly beneath him. I'm so glad it's gone.

@Theatregirl1122 I didn't miss it, rather I conveniently forgot it existed. It's better that way.

I liked that program.

 

[Rukia]

I liked that program.

Don't worry, so did I.