U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

soogar said:
I’m co-signing on Karen-w’s post that Ilia’s base value with his quads will obliterate Jason’s BOW. I don’t think anyone can make the argument that a guy with only triples should go over a guy with multiple quad jumps.
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And it should. not.

You're assuming he lands them all tomorrow anyway, which is not at all guaranteed.
 
VGThuy said:
The body of work only accounts for this season’s competitions plus 2021 Worlds. Also, check out the scores for both Jason and Ilia.
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PCs are not nearly as high in juniors as they are in Seniors. The US took a shot on Vincent he became a world medalist and also now has a shot at an Olympic medal this year.

It is always a good idea to give opportunities to your skaters who have world class technical content.
 
This thread is all worked up when everyone could completely flop tomorrow and then none of this will matter. You're all going to make me root for a Ma + Paniot + Pulkinen Olympic team.

jk I would never do that to my faves but still
 
becca said:
PCs are not nearly as high in juniors as they are in Seniors. The US took a shot on Vincent he became a world medalist and also now has a shot at an Olympic medal this year.

It is always a good idea to give opportunities to your skaters who have world class technical content.
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Go ahead and add fifteen or twenty points for Ilia and compare them to non-perfect Jason’s scores in the GP. Check out his Challenger event score since that was a senior competition. Listen, I’m not anti Ilia at all. I already posted my feelings on why I would be ok with either Jason or Ilia depending on what happens tomorrow. But people need to not treat Jason like trash.
 
kwanfan1818 said:
And has better insurance.
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? I just think it’s a mistake. It sends the wrong message international to put Ilia behind Brown. Is Nathan Chen going to be staying next year will Vincent? Who does the US going to have?

The Japanese are going to be sending their top young talent who already has a world silver and is around Ilia’s age he will be getting Olympic experience.

The Us need to start getting behind Illia now. It sends the wrong message to say he is that below a quadless Jason. They want to be saying he is ad good as the top Japanese youngster.

But then again this is a federation that put Chen behind Rippon at a Nationals.

It’s not treating Jason like trash to point out that he has never developed the technical goods to compete with the top men in the world. He has had what eight years to do so.

He made his decisions here.

People are making this personal but it isn’t.
 
becca said:
? I just think it’s a mistake. It sends the wrong message international to put Illia behind Brown. Is Nathan Chen going to be staying next year will Vincent? Who does the US going to have?

The Japanese are going to be sending their top young talent who already has a world silver and is around Ilia’s age he will be getting Olympic experience.

The Us need to start getting behind Illia now. It sends the wrong message to say he is that below a quadless Jason. They want to be saying he is ad good as the top Japanese youngster.

But then again this is a federation that put Chen behind Rippon at a Nationals.
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A lot of skaters even with quads have consistently placed behind Jason at Worlds, and pretty consistently. The USFS can give Ilia his shot next year and he won’t suffer politically if he can keep jumping like that. We’ve seen upstarts before. I just don’t like this argument that we should stop judging properly for political reasons. Let Ilia make his own case tomorrow. If he flies past Jason or even an underperforming Nathan and Vincent, then that’ll say what needs to be said.
 
becca said:
? I just think it’s a mistake. It sends the wrong message international to put Illia behind Brown. Is Nathan Chen going to be staying next year will Vincent? Who does the US going to have?

The Japanese are going to be sending their top young talent who already has a world silver and is around Ilia’s age he will be getting Olympic experience.

The Us need to start getting behind Illia now. It sends the wrong message to say he is that below a quadless Jason. They want to be saying he is ad good as the top Japanese youngster.

But then again this is a federation that put Chen behind Rippon at a Nationals.
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Kagiyama and Malinin are in completely different situations.

I have nothing against Malinin and if he goes he goes but...these two things are not the same.

Idk why I'm even getting into this after making a joke post about this someone save me from myself.
 
becca said:
? I just think it’s a mistake. It sends the wrong message international to put Illia behind Brown. Is Nathan Chen going to be staying next year will Vincent? Who does the US going to have?
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It also sends a horrendous message to the US men to toss Jason aside. "Here we are, you can do everything we demand, work your butt off, change your technique, be the second-most consistent man over the whole quad, get the results we need, medal consistently, meet every single criteria, but we'll still trash you for some shiny new toy at the first opportunity." You don't think the other US men wouldn't notice that message? Especially to a well-loved, well-respected skater who many of the other US men look up to?

Vincent is apparently staying. And guess what? Jason is probably staying on too.
 
I have another BOW comparison, and this one is between Ilia and Vincent.

Ilia won gold at both of his Junior Grand Prix events this season and would have been seeded second at JGPF.

Vincent won gold and silver at his Grand Prix events this season and would have been seeded second or third at GPF (it's too close to my bedtime for me to figure out exact seedings).

Ilia had what could best be described as a mediocre Junior Worlds, finishing in 16th place.

Vincent had what could best be described as a disastrous Worlds, finishing the short program in 25th place and failing to qualify for the free skate.

Ilia had the better peer to peer BOW than Vincent did, and you can only compete against your peers.

Given that, I can see an argument for Nationals being used as a head to head competition between Vincent and Ilia for a spot on the Olympic team.
 
That’s like the worst way to compare BOW. That’s why the USFS uses actual scores. I can’t believe people are still trying to get Vincent off this team after the GP season he had and his scoring potential showing he’s a true medal threat at the Olympics.
 
Holy moly as I was watching Ilia do his short program and how perfect it was I was like oh my gosh please send the Olympics but then I was thinking that could be expense of Jason who is also perfect as well. But oh my gosh Ilia has improved from the junior Grand Prix a few months ago as well
 
VGThuy said:
A lot of skaters even with quads have consistently placed behind Jason at Worlds, and pretty consistently. The USFS can give Ilia his shot next year and he won’t suffer politically if he can keep jumping like that. We’ve seen upstarts before. I just don’t like this argument that we should stop judging properly for political reasons. Let Ilia make his own case tomorrow. If he flies past Jason or even an underperforming Nathan and Vincent, then that’ll say what needs to be said.
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Jason still has no world or Olympic and individual medal in what eight years.

Yes other people make mistakes and Jason with his easier content can take advantage. If Jason was from a lesser federation he would not be getting those PCs either.

I am not saying I don’t enjoy Jason’s skating but he is technically not a complete skater and he shouldn’t be going over someone who has the goods to be very competitive.

Furthermore Illia has the talent to be an OGM. Him getting the Olympic experience now can be the difference between winning OGM in 2026 or not. A lot of skaters benefited tremendously by having that experience. It was probably the difference maker for Chen and Hanyu four years ago.
 
becca said:
Jason still has no world or Olympic and individual medal in what eight years.

Yes other people make mistakes and Jason with his easier content can take advantage. If Jason was from a lesser federation he would not be getting those PCs either.

I am not saying I don’t enjoy Jason’s skating but he is technically not a complete skater and he shouldn’t be going over someone who has the goods to be very competitive.

Furthermore Illia has the talent to be an OGM. Him getting the Olympic experience now can be the difference between winning OGM in 2026 or not. A lot of skaters benefited tremendously by having that experience. It was probably the difference maker for Chen and Hanyu four years ago.
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Don’t forget Hanyu won gold at his first Olympics after two Worlds experience while Chan won silver at his second at those same Olympics. Nathan had worlds experience precious to Pyeongchang. He could have won but he blew the SP.
 
Let's not forget that Ilia has had his headcase moments. Let's just wait and see how he skates tomorrow.
 
VGThuy said:
Don’t forget Hanyu won gold at his first Olympics after two Worlds experience while Chan won silver at his second at those same Olympics. Nathan had worlds experience precious to Pyeongchang. He could have won but he blew the SP.
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Hanyu got lucky his first Olympics everyone skated horrifically. Worst Olympic free win in decades.

Worlds isn’t the same as the Olympics. Previous Olympic experience may be why Yagudin beat Plushenko in 2002.

Once again being able to give Ilia Olympic experience now with no pressure and no expectations could be huge.

I am not saying Ilia won’t headcase. But now is the time to let him get that experience and it out of his system.
 
becca said:
PCs are not nearly as high in juniors as they are in Seniors.
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Nor should they be. But Ilia did get the opportunity to compete as a senior internationally this season, so it’s not like he wasn’t given the opportunity to demonstrate he could be competitive at that level. And that is one of the events the selection committee will be taking into consideration along with nationals, even though a lot of people here would like to pretend it never happened.

I know it’s because of IJS, but I’m also tired of people talking about Jason’s lack of technical content when he’s skating programs that are full of technical difficulty that none of these other guys could dream of executing like he does. He is very much a technical skater, and that’s why he consistently scores as high as he does. Counting jumps is reasonable when you’re trying to predict results because they’re worth more points, but let’s call it what it is. Jumps are not the only technical content in figure skating, they’re just the part the ISU decided to score highest because TV audiences couldn’t understand the rest of it.
 
Trillian said:
Nor should they be. But Ilia did get the opportunity to compete as a senior internationally this season, so it’s not like he wasn’t given the opportunity to demonstrate he could be competitive at that level. And that is one of the events the selection committee will be taking into consideration along with nationals, even though a lot of people here would like to pretend it never happened.

I know it’s because of IJS, but I’m also tired of people talking about Jason’s lack of technical content when he’s skating programs that are full of technical difficulty that none of these other guys could dream of executing like he does. He is very much a technical skater, and that’s why he consistently scores as high as he does. Counting jumps is reasonable when you’re trying to predict results because they’re worth more points, but let’s call it what it is. Jumps are not the only technical content in figure skating, they’re just the part the ISU decided to score highest because TV audiences couldn’t understand the rest of it.
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Many felt some of Jason’s jumps were underrotated he has trouble at times rotating triples when others are doing quads.

And I am sorry I suspect there are a lot of skaters who if they put their mind to it could do Jason’s transitions. But they don’t because they cannot do them and quads.

This is a sport and Jason’s jump content wouldn’t even be competitive in the ladies field. Kamilla would stomp all over him.

He is a beautiful skater and I would like to watch him at a show? But at the Olympics? He shouldn’t be going over people with much higher technical content.

Expecting a new young skater to get super high PCs right away isn’t really how it works. Ilias technical content is not a joke or a fluke it’s not like he is never had a quad ratified internationally.

Smart federations get behind their young talent quickly.
 
Jason makes me think of Japan’s Satoko Miyahara a bit…unquestionably her country’s most sublime artistic skater who missed making the Olympic team because she simply didn’t have the tech content of those above her. I’m not saying that the same thing will happen tomorrow if all the top men skate to their abilities. In my mind, Jason should be selected, if all skate cleanly. It would break my heart to see Jason put on the flight to Estonia. ? ✈️ ??
 
concorde said:
The opposite be said about Ilia as well.
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Yes it’s not his fault he is only 17 and hasn’t had the opportunity to compete much I mean part of his juniors was during COVID too.

When Jason was a new senior skater they gave him the Olympics even though his body of work wasn’t all that impressive why should Ilia be treated any differently?

Once Jason has known for over a decade that he needed a quad if he wanted to be competive with the rest of the men.

Does Jason’s scores even put him in tier 2?

Jason did get one Olympics and multiple worlds that’s more than most men. Why should Illia be denied the opportunity.

To me this more about one skater having had years to develop an Uber base than what is really fair.
 
wickedwitch said:
I’m gonna be so glad when tomorrow’s over and we don’t have to deal with Jason versus Ilia hypotheticals again.
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Until one of them is put on the team over the other, then we won’t hear the end of it. It’ll just depend on which faction who will go on incessantly. :lol:
 
becca said:
And I am sorry I suspect there are a lot of skaters who if they put their mind to it could do Jason’s transitions. But they don’t because they cannot do them and quads.
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Based on the admiration he’s gotten from his fellow skaters, I don’t know if that’s true, but so what? Maybe Jason could have a full arsenal of quads if he hadn’t bothered to learn how to do everything else so well. Again, there is more to “technical content” than quad jumps.

becca said:
Expecting a new young skater to get super high PCs right away isn’t really how it works.
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Oh, I know, I’m not new. But Ilia’s problems in Austria actually had more to do with his “technical content.”
 
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