U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[ЭPiKUilyam]

I don't think he was having the twisties. He wouldn't have been able to land any of the jumps if he did. But, I wouldn't be surprised if he was feeling the pressure. The article the other day where he discussed Simone Biles did make me wonder about his current psychological state. He has enormous pressure on him. On the one hand, he has the last Olympics hanging over him. On the other, he hadn't lost a competition since then, so the expectations are high. It all adds a ton of pressure. Plus, he seems to demand a lot from himself. And the hype and scrutiny is already very high. I don't think he needed a wake-up call as some people seem to think. Others may think of him as invincible, but I don't get the sense that he ever has.

. Oh I hope he's handling the pressure okay. It's enormous. But I'm also thinking of Debi Thomas who took a leave from Stanford to focus solely on skating. He's a brilliant man, maybe he can do something intellectual to take his mind off training and all the pressure? Does he speak Chinese, for instance? He's a whiz, so I'm sure if he doesn't that he could become fluent(ish) come Beijing, and he could be a media darling to the Chinese audience. That's a thought. But I'm really not all that concerned for him, though mentioning Simone Biles made my heart twinge.

Vincent is in a very different situation. He said that he was skating like he had nothing to lose. I'm sure he puts pressure on himself, but the expectations for him weren't particularly high coming into Skate America given his inconsistency and how he did at Worlds last season.

Ultimately, only Nathan and his team know what the issue is, so only they know what can be done to address it at this point. Unfortunately, they have almost no time before Skate Canada.

Really, Vincent is in such a wonderful position. I thought it might be over for him after Worlds this year. But he has come back fighting. He was great at Nebelhorn to secure the third spot. And really, he was amazing last night (for him). And coming off a win where you are the only person to have defeated Nathan since the last Olympics, well, I think his international "stock" must go up now. I prefer the Japanese men because of their amazing skills, but now I think Vincent can be considered in the 'frontrunners' category. But he's never been in that position before, so can he handle the new pressure...... eek. It's a tough sport. I think if it came down to Nathan versus Vincent for Gold in Beijing, I would trust the undisputed World Champion for 4 years to execute a five quad program under Olympic pressure, than someone who has never been in that kind of position. But if this elevates Vincent's confidence like it would me, we really might be looking at the next Olympic champion. (Should I register/save that comment for posterity? lol)

 

[ilovepaydays]

Just saw Andrea Joyce interviewing Nathan on NBC. Good lord, why did she talk to him like he failed? He just made some mistakes, that’s all. Nothing close to be alarmed about - for now.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Just saw Andrea Joyce interviewing Nathan on NBC. Good lord, why did she talk to him like he failed? He just made some mistakes, that’s all. Nothing close to be alarmed about - for now.

I really wish sports journalists should TRY to be positive in their questions. I understand why Naomi Osaka finally had had enough. One bad competition is not the end of the world. Ice is slippery. Sometimes your head or your body just aren't in the "mood" that day. I do think that framing their questions in a more kind and uplifting manner would not just make the athletes happy, but everyone else as well. (of course nice doesn't get the clicks....)

 

[ilovepaydays]

I really wish sports journalists should TRY to be positive in their questions.

Or at least have some emotional or Olympic sports intelligence. I actually don’t need them to be “positive” as much as they should be interviewing with the intent of informing the fans and not just “what’s wrong with you!!!!!”

It’s like Andrea Joyce has never, in her entire life, analyzed about what goes into competing at this level. Does she just go to these athletes and spew out whatever questions comes up in her mind? She does basically the same thing when she interviews gymnasts.

 

[tylersf]

I really don't think Nathan's competition was a disaster, just a little off. Nathan still finished on the podium. Vincent was on and he won. The skater who is on that day usually wins. The problem is, being a little off is the difference between the color of the medals.

I did notice that most of Vincent's jumps were under review, while not as many of Nathan's jumps were reviewed. I do believe the judges wanted Nathan to win and gave him as many benefits of the doubt as they could. On top of that, Nathan's component scores were higher than Vincent's. If Nathan doubled only one jump instead of 2, he might have finished higher. Since Vincent skated after Nathan, the judges had the power to stick it to Vincent in PCS scores (that would have been unfair though) to place Nathan above Vincent. However, doubling 2 jumps was enough to keep Nathan in 3rd place.

 

[skatingguy]

I did notice that most of Vincent's jumps were under review, while not as many of Nathan's jumps were reviewed. I do believe the judges wanted Nathan to win and gave him as many benefits of the doubt as they could.

That's nothing to do with the judges - the technical panel reviews jumps not the judges, and it's not about the technical panel wanting Nathan to win either. Chen has superior jump technique to Zhou, and that's why he's been ahead of him for many years.

 

[Allskate]

Or at least have some emotional or Olympic sports intelligence. I actually don’t need them to be “positive” as much as they should be interviewing with the intent of informing the fans and not just “what’s wrong with you!!!!!”

Yeah, her questioning wasn't intelligent. Especially after Nathan said he had not had time to process what had happened and her next question was what changes he was going to make before Skate Canada, which is just a stupid question given his answer and given that Skate Canada is coming right up.

 

[Lacey]

Andrea Joyce likes to hear herself talk.

 

[skatingguy]

Andrea Joyce likes to hear herself talk.

How does that differentiate her from the rest of the species?

 

[Marco]

Congrats to Vincent for scoring 295.56 at SA, a score that would have placed him second at 2021 Worlds. If he maintains his scores in the 290s (or high 280s) and places top 3 at Nationals, his ticket to Beijing will be quite secure.

 

[slicekw]

Just saw Andrea Joyce interviewing Nathan on NBC. Good lord, why did she talk to him like he failed? He just made some mistakes, that’s all. Nothing close to be alarmed about - for now.

Andrea Joyce has all the reporting instincts of a tabloid journalist. She's a terrible interviewer and I have never understood why NBC uses her.

 

[SDoesNotKnow]

That’s probably why they keep her on.

 

[emason]

Andrea Joyce has all the reporting instincts of a tabloid journalist. She's a terrible interviewer and I have never understood why NBC uses her.

Possibly because she’s married to Harry Smith, himself a big noise at NBC.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Congrats to Vincent for scoring 295.56 at SA, a score that would have placed him second at 2021 Worlds. If he maintains his scores in the 290s (or high 280s) and places top 3 at Nationals, his ticket to Beijing will be quite secure.

Do you really think he needs to place top 3? He and Nathan are locks for the Olympic team now, IMO. Now it's just nailbiting whether Jason holds it together. I at least really want Jason on the team, but I also recognize that every other skater has put in the same amount of time, sacrifice, $$$$$, so I want it to be fair.

 

[Karen-W]

Do you really think he needs to place top 3? He and Nathan are locks for the Olympic team now, IMO. Now it's just nailbiting whether Jason holds it together. I at least really want Jason on the team, but I also recognize that every other skater has put in the same amount of time, sacrifice, $$$$$, so I want it to be fair.

The way the criteria for the Olympic Team selection currently reads Vincent and Nathan are both in Group 2 Priority (no one is in Group 1, at the moment). Group 2 requires a Top 5 Nationals finish AND consistently scoring equal to top 5 at Worlds 2021 or at least ONE score equal/above top 3 at 2021 Worlds. So, they need to, both of them, maintain their current scoring levels or raise them. Group 1 requires a top 3 at Nationals AND consistently scoring equal/above top 3 at Worlds.

 

[missing]

The way the criteria for the Olympic Team selection currently reads Vincent and Nathan are both in Group 2 Priority (no one is in Group 1, at the moment). Group 2 requires a Top 5 Nationals finish AND consistently scoring equal to top 5 at Worlds 2021 or at least ONE score equal/above top 3 at 2021 Worlds. So, they need to, both of them, maintain their current scoring levels or raise them. Group 1 requires a top 3 at Nationals AND consistently scoring equal/above top 3 at Worlds.

I never would have known to check, but Vincent's SA score is higher than Hanyu's (or for that matter Kagiyama's) score at 2021 Worlds. So if Vincent is top 5 at Nationals, presumably he'll be Group 2 Priority, and I doubt anyone other than Nathan is going to make his way to Group 1 Priority, and Nathan is going to have to work hard at that, since his SA score is lower than the top 3 at Worlds.

If Vincent doesn't finish top 5 at Nationals, he's going to have had a truly disastrous Nationals, and the decision of who to send to the Olympics is going to be very complicated and controversial.

 

[Karen-W]

I never would have known to check, but Vincent's SA score is higher than Hanyu's (or for that matter Kagiyama's) score at 2021 Worlds. So if Vincent is top 5 at Nationals, presumably he'll be Group 2 Priority, and I doubt anyone other than Nathan is going to make his way to Group 1 Priority, and Nathan is going to have to work hard at that, since his SA score is lower than the top 3 at Worlds.

If Vincent doesn't finish top 5 at Nationals, he's going to have had a truly disastrous Nationals, and the decision of who to send to the Olympics is going to be very complicated and controversial.

Vincent is on his way to Group 1. If he scores 291+ at NHK and the GPF (presuming he qualifies), then he will have established a consistent scoring equal/above Top 3. He also has another Challenger before NHK, so he is the driver's seat.

I agree about Nathan having some work to do but I don't think it's impossible if he manages to right himself at SCI this week. Either the GPF or Golden Spin will get him another competition to reestablish his "consistently scoring equal/above Worlds top 3".

 

[hoptoad]

It also depends how many other skaters reach group 1 or 2 priority. If no one does except Vincent and Nathan, they are likely to go even if they bomb nationals.

 

[SDoesNotKnow]

Right, if Nathan and Vincent don’t make group 1 by Nationals, most likely nobody else did either.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

If Vincent doesn't finish top 5 at Nationals, he's going to have had a truly disastrous Nationals, and the decision of who to send to the Olympics is going to be very complicated and controversial.

That's always a concern. But how I look at it, if a top skater like Zhou has a disaster and places out of the top 5, he MUST have at least a TEENY legitimate excuse (hurt ankle, fever, whatever). I'd still name him to the team unless he's injured and can't regain his SkAm peak. Also, it worries me that some competitions barely have any spread. I've seen competitions that have 4-5 skaters ended up within one point or two points of each other. So there wasn't a critical or significant difference between 3rd and 6th. So it came down to quality mistakes.

I am glad that these guidelines are open and clear for everyone to see. I feel like there will be much less need for backroom deals and politik. And it's practically written for Jason!!!

 

[missing]

Vincent is on his way to Group 1. If he scores 291+ at NHK and the GPF (presuming he qualifies), then he will have established a consistent scoring equal/above Top 3. He also has another Challenger before NHK, so he is the driver's seat.

I agree about Nathan having some work to do but I don't think it's impossible if he manages to right himself at SCI this week. Either the GPF or Golden Spin will get him another competition to reestablish his "consistently scoring equal/above Worlds top 3".

Consistently is such a weighted term. Most likely Nathan will win SC, but a first and a third doesn't guarantee a GP Final, does it? And given his decision not to do any pre-GP competitions, maybe he won't choose to do Golden Spin.

Does the USFS still guarantee that the Nationals gold medalist automatically gets the Olympics? Or is it weighted now with groups and comparison scoring?

 

[Karen-W]

I am glad that these guidelines are open and clear for everyone to see. I feel like there will be much less need for backroom deals and politik. And it's practically written for Jason!!!

I don't think they are practically written with any particular skater (in any discipline) in mind. We've had two "controversial" BOW team selections in 2015 and 2018 and the rewritten criteria makes it clear that showing an ability to consistently score at a certain level, internationally, is going to move you up in the prioritization of Olympic team selections, so that even if you do have an off event at Nationals, you're still probably getting picked over a less than consistent skater who peaks at Nationals. It rewards consistent performance during the current season too.

 

[Karen-W]

Consistently is such a weighted term. Most likely Nathan will win SC, but a first and a third doesn't guarantee a GP Final, does it? And given his decision not to do any pre-GP competitions, maybe he won't choose to do Golden Spin.

Does the USFS still guarantee that the Nationals gold medalist automatically gets the Olympics? Or is it weighted now with groups and comparison scoring?

I don't think the champion is guaranteed an Olympic spot anymore but I'm not positive. And I don't think, if Nathan fails to make the GPF that the USFS is going to give him the option of skipping Golden Spin - not with how poorly received his SP was this weekend.

 

[missing]

I don't think the champion is guaranteed an Olympic spot anymore but I'm not positive. And I don't think, if Nathan fails to make the GPF that the USFS is going to give him the option of skipping Golden Spin - not with how poorly received his SP was this weekend.

Golden Spin is basically the same time as GPF, so Nathan needs to go to one or the other and score higher than 289.18, which he also will have to do at SC for him to display consistency. If for some reason he can't do that, he'll have to gamble that there won't be 2 other men at Nationals who have consistently scored higher than 289.18 this season, which is a pretty safe gamble.

 

[Karen-W]

Golden Spin is basically the same time as GPF, so Nathan needs to go to one or the other and score higher than 289.18, which he also will have to do at SC for him to display consistency. If for some reason he can't do that, he'll have to gamble that there won't be 2 other men at Nationals who have consistently scored higher than 289.18 this season, which is a pretty safe gamble.

It isn't just about whether or not another man can/will score higher than 289.12 by Nationals. I agree, it is a pretty safe gamble that won't happen. The bigger concern, IMO, is that neither his SP nor his FS were all that well-recieved - the SP is particularly bad. If he ditches it after SCI then he needs more than just Nationals to get a new one out there in front of the judges, so GPF or Golden Spin will be the only options available.

 

[RoseRed]

Consistently is such a weighted term. Most likely Nathan will win SC, but a first and a third doesn't guarantee a GP Final, does it? And given his decision not to do any pre-GP competitions, maybe he won't choose to do Golden Spin.

Does the USFS still guarantee that the Nationals gold medalist automatically gets the Olympics? Or is it weighted now with groups and comparison scoring?

A first and a 3rd is basically a guarantee for the final. It's the same points as two silvers, but ranks ahead on the tiebreaker. So the only ways to go more points are two 1sts or a 1st and a 2nd.

I went back to 2009-10, and I couldn't find any instances of 1st/3rd not making the final (same for 2nd/2nd).

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Consistently is such a weighted term. Most likely Nathan will win SC, but a first and a third doesn't guarantee a GP Final, does it? And given his decision not to do any pre-GP competitions, maybe he won't choose to do Golden Spin.

I'm sure someone like Sylvia can immediately pop up with an answer, but it is my general feeling that the men's event is a little bit more diverse than the ladies. I know for ladies, with all the Russians taking all the medals sometimes a 1st and a 3rd might not be enough. But the level of competition is SO high and SO close in their case. I just don't see a swath of men dominating the grand prix where a 1st and 3rd won't get it. Or is it that competitive in men's?

Does the USFS still guarantee that the Nationals gold medalist automatically gets the Olympics? Or is it weighted now with groups and comparison scoring?

It's probably in CharlieBrown-speak. Who knows. But I can not envision an age-eligible skater who WINS the National Championships being denied a trip to the Olympics. I don't think anyone would stand for that. Nor should they. It would only reinforce our childhood suspicions from the 70s that Lexie never would have made it to the Olympics anyway, due to EVILE USFSA politik!!!!! haha

 

[skateboy]

In case no one has mentioned it, today is Vincent Zhou's 21st birthday!

 

[sheetz]

The way the criteria for the Olympic Team selection currently reads Vincent and Nathan are both in Group 2 Priority (no one is in Group 1, at the moment). Group 2 requires a Top 5 Nationals finish AND consistently scoring equal to top 5 at Worlds 2021 or at least ONE score equal/above top 3 at 2021 Worlds. So, they need to, both of them, maintain their current scoring levels or raise them. Group 1 requires a top 3 at Nationals AND consistently scoring equal/above top 3 at Worlds.

Technically Nathan is Group 1. World's scores count so his current median score is 295.13.

 

[missing]

I found the thread with all the rules and regs for Olympic team selection, and really it's pretty funny. I do understand why the USFS felt the need to make it clear why they'll select who they'll select, but given the strength of the Russian women and the (how can I put this politely), the lack of strength internationally of the US pairs teams, there aren't going to be skaters in either discipline who are consistently scoring even at a top 5 at Worlds level. Not to mention what consistently means when there are only 2 or 3 competitions, or what to do if a junior skater at Nationals ends up in the top 3 but doesn't have those consistent to Worlds scores because they haven't competed internationally at the senior level (and there's at least 1 man and 1 woman who have been mentioned at FSU as potential medalists at Nationals). Nor does consistently take into account injuries and withdrawals.

So maybe there'll be a Level 2 for one woman, and then for the other two women and both pairs teams, it's either going to be Nationals as the deciding factor (which fans will understand) or pick a name out of a hat.

Vincent seems to have pretty much guaranteed his ticket to the Olympics, baring an utter catastrophe at Nationals, and Nathan will most likely make it, but for everyone else the hat is looking like the safest bet.