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Scott512

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Then? I do not get why people like her so much and celebrate her so much? Behave as if she is perfect... There are many skaters with much better technique and much better skating skills than her.

Except those skaters who you think have better skills and better technique than Anya are not as good as her. Anna is getting better and better and better. She covers off any flaws she has very well.

As for why people like her and celebrate Anna so much is because she's lovely a very good sport and gets along with everyone. She is also very real not fake at all which are other reasons to like her.

This is not the Anya who was a 14 year old junior 2 years ago she's almost 17 and a different skater also with interpretation and artistry that's a very high level. Her free skate at nationals was magnificent. Dont you agree?

And for Anna to do that after Sasha and KV brought the house down makes her free skate even more phenomenal.
 
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NadezhdaNadya

Banned Member
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LOL! I see Nadya has found her way here. Did Golden Skate not appreciate your obsessive bashing of Anna?
If Anna ever wins Worlds or Olympics she will be just another Sotnikova. Of course, Sotnikova was much better and jumped higher.
Anna can have some technical flaws and still be a lovely, strong, musical skater. These things can both be true. :) I can see some of the issues, but I always enjoy watching her nonetheless.
I appreciate your answer. :) However her flaws are too big and too many.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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14,463
It means that Anna rotates less revolutions in the air. Instead of rotating 2.75 revolutions in the air for triple lutz and triple flip - she rotates just 2.25 revolutions in the air, instead of rotating 3.75 revolutions in the air for quad lutz and quad flip - she rotates just 3.25 in the air. Her pre-rotation is really ugly - twisting and bending her body and she jumps with her back. Also her lutz edge is flat and not outside. Yet she gets more points for her excessively pre-rotated triple lutz with flat edge than Alexia Paganini who has textbook triple lutz with minimal pre-rotation.

Well said! Very clear explanation. :cool:
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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Except those skaters who you think have better skills and better technique than Anya are not as good as her. Anna is getting better and better and better. She covers off any flaws she has very well.

As for why people like her and celebrate Anna so much is because she's lovely a very good sport and gets along with everyone. She is also very real not fake at all which are other reasons to like her.

This is not the Anya who was a 14 year old junior 2 years ago she's almost 17 and a different skater also with interpretation and artistry that's a very high level. Her free skate at nationals was magnificent. Dont you agree?

And for Anna to do that after Sasha and KV brought the house down makes her free skate even more phenomenal.
You know all this is your opinion. Right? According to Mr. Webster opinion is: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."
 

Marco

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15,262
Her pre-rotation and full blade assist on take off are real technical issues. Not to say they take away from her achievements, but ISU was going to introduce rules to deduct points for these flaws and then the decision got halted due to the YKW. If these rules come back next season Anna will be adversely impacted on TES. I also worry for her ankles with the way she takes off on the quads.
 

Ka3sha

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Interview with Elizaveta Tuktamysheva

- The main question after Russian Nationals: how do you feel now?
- I feel good. Of course, it was not easy to compete at Nationals. But in general, I am good, it’s New Year. I will try to start 2021 with a positive attitude.
- What was the main problem?
- I think the body did not have time to fully recover - both muscle tone and breathing. There was no such ease of execution that I usually have if I am in good shape.
- What happened to your knee? There was a tape.
- The muscles did not quite cope with the trainings when it was necessary to quickly get back in shape. I had to help the muscles and ligaments to make them more efficient.
- Is it more of a safety measure?
- A safety measure, and that it was working good. The muscles did not strain, but there was discomfort, so I had to tap it to make me more confident.
- Despite the imperfect form, in the free program you went for two triple axels.
- It seemed to me that two axels are a sign that I am fighting, that I want to show my complex content. It was a risk, I lost a lot of points due to the fact that I fell on the second triple axel. But for myself it was more important for me to skate the free program with two triple axels and not lower the bar that was set during the season.
- Alexey Mishin said that you can withdrew from the free program. How did you decide to compete?
- After the morning practice, we talked and decided that we need to perform. It's better to skate as you can now, even if it won't be your best skate than to withdraw. For me, withdrawal is like losing to myself. I was preparing, I was aiming to compete at the Russian Nationals from the first day. So much work had been done that just giving up and giving up at the last moment is not about us, not about our team and not about me. So we decided to fight to the end.
- Did you quickly recover the elements during preparation?
- There were difficulties. It was harder than just after an illness. I lost all physical shape, because lying in an apartment for two weeks is difficult not to lose it. There was a loss of coordination. Just before the Russian championship, I got in a more or less competitive shape, a shape in which I can perform at competitions. I did the maximum that could be squeezed out of this situation. We trained hard and did a lot of exercise. But in the beginning there was a state: "Lord, how can muscle tone go away that much in two weeks that you get lost in space?" It wasn't easy.
- Earlier you said that it is quite difficult for you to get the triple axel back, but now you managed to do it in a week. Found a secret?
- It all depends on the mood. While I was sick, I watched the performances and scrolled through the elements in my head, especially the axel. I knew that I had to get it back for a long time after quarantine, and before the Russian Nationals I didn’t have much time. I went out without a doubt. Two weeks passed, but I still had fresh sensations in my head. If my muscles somehow slept, then it was muscle memory that remained. Thanks to it, I immediately steered landing triple axel with such an attitude that I have no choice, I simply need to get it. And when you set yourself up like this, then you have much stronger motivation, and you go, jump and work on this element.
- What was your first thought after the free skating?
- I was upset because I could have skated better. Although at the same time I knew that I had done practically the maximum that I was capable of. The next one was the joy that I had learned that this difficult moment in my life is over and now I have the opportunity to get in very good shape and at the next competitions show everything that I can, how I can really skate well.
A lot of words of support were said. It helped me to cope with those annoying thoughts that accompanied me after the performance. I cheered up, and in the evening I was in a good mood. I was energized that there is more to come and I will show how I can skate.
- What is the next event planned?
- I don't know yet, but some competitions are planned in early February. It seems, even before the final of the Russian Cup. I want to be in shape in January. Doesn’t matter if there are going to be competitions or not... I really want to get the quad back and insert it into a free program.
- Are you planning a quad instead of one of the triple axels?
- For now, yes. I'm not sure that in a month I will be able to gain such a shape to perform both two triple axels and a quadruple toe loop. Everything is possible, but for now, like last season, we plan to replace one triple axel with a quadruple toeloop in the content.
- Have you already thought about programs for the next season?
- We have not discussed this with the coaches yet, but I have an idea for a short program. Hope they will like it. I don’t want to say the music, but this program is sitting in my head right for the Olympic season.
- So it happens that ideas may appear during the season?
- I position this season as preparation for the Olympics. I understand that today, practices and performances are steps to the next season. Previously, I did not think in advance what programs I will skate to the next season. Now I need to roughly understand how the programs will look like, so as not to waste time on this in the offseason. To clearly understand what kind of music, what kind of choreographer, so that everything is planned. So I thought about it, and there is already one version of the music.
- By the way, about programs. For this season you were going to work on a program with Stéphane Lambiel. But it didn't happen. Why?
- We put on a fun program. We worked with Stephane for pleasure, I trained his kids. It was a friendly help. But then we heard the music offered by Yuri Smekalov, and decided that "The Song of the Clockwork Bird" would be a better choice.
- How was your coaching experience?
- I worked more on the technique. As I understand it, Stephane invited me precisely as a specialist in Mishin’s technique. I corrected the elements, gave some exercises. It was interesting to me, I like it, especially if I see that children really want to do it. There are those who skate just for fun and do not quite understand what is needed. Anyway, it's interesting. Moreover, in Champery, where Stephane works, there are very good conditions, a wonderful skating rink. It's a pleasure to skate and train.
- Didn't you want to become a coach after the end of your career?
- I think about it. If I had no idea about it before, now I look more and more at my friends who already go to the Russian championship as coaches, and I understand that figure skating is not over for them: a student becomes a coach. Your friends, who are younger than you, are already standing behind the boards. You think: it's so cool that they are still here! You are no longer an athlete, but you still go to competitions, you see familiar faces. Therefore, I am
now considering this option. I love competitions, skating, traveling, this whole atmosphere. If possible, I will be a coach for a while. Let's see how life goes.
- Would you like to have your own group or work as a specialist in some existing one?
- I would like to have my group, to raise my athletes, to become a good coach and specialist. Follow the footsteps of Alexei Nikolaevich Mishin.
 

Natanielle825

Well-Known Member
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214
Until US Nationals comes around.
Anything to end the "Nancy was so lucky she was assaulted" discussion in the US ladies thread plz
If possible, I will be a coach for a while.
I hope so! For the continuation of Mishin technique and also because Liza seems like a good role model with actual perspective.
ISU was going to introduce rules to deduct points for these flaws and then the decision got halted due to the YKW.
Interesting but probably irrelevant. Even if they created those rules, someone would have to actually apply them. If a bazillion flutzes are currently going uncalled, even internationally and especially for top skaters, it's going to be the same for the floops or whatever they're called.
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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18,536
I will just say I have a hard time accepting that under rotations on the back end are the worst thing ever if pre-rotations are barely a problem.

If ISU wants judges to nit pick one aspect of the jump, all aspects should be nit picked (nitted pick? LOL). Also, callers should be given the tools necessary to do the job properly.
 

Scott512

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Messages
855
This has to be THE thread of the entire FSW! Even after Sylvia split the old Russia thread into ladies and "the rest," this one is hoppin'!!! Until US Nationals comes around.
What do you mean until US national comes around?
 

Scott512

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855
I will just say I have a hard time accepting that under rotations on the back end are the worst thing ever if pre-rotations are barely a problem.

If ISU wants judges to nit pick one aspect of the jump, all aspects should be nit picked (nitted pick? LOL). Also, callers should be given the tools necessary to do the job properly.
How do you become an ISU judge?

I think there should be a turnover every few years I have new judges replacing old judges.
 

NadezhdaNadya

Banned Member
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37
Her pre-rotation and full blade assist on take off are real technical issues. Not to say they take away from her achievements, but ISU was going to introduce rules to deduct points for these flaws and then the decision got halted due to the YKW. If these rules come back next season Anna will be adversely impacted on TES. I also worry for her ankles with the way she takes off on the quads.
This. :) I remember that I was so excited after they changed the rules that I could not sleep the whole night. But... these rules were canceled.
Anna - she has the poorest jump technique I have ever seen for a skater at that level. It is just embarrassing. Why all the other skaters worked harder in order to have better technique and Anna never did? Yet... She seems to be so proud and with such high self-esteem...? Yuna Kim was modest despite all of her success.
 

Tobbe

Well-Known Member
Messages
183
This. :) I remember that I was so excited after they changed the rules that I could not sleep the whole night. But... these rules were canceled.
Anna - she has the poorest jump technique I have ever seen for a skater at that level. It is just embarrassing. Why all the other skaters worked harder in order to have better technique and Anna never did? Yet... She seems to be so proud and with such high self-esteem...? Yuna Kim was modest despite all of her success.
Oh Nadya! LOLOLOL! This 'poor' technique you are talking about is accepted by the judges, don't you see that? We will probably never see big 3Lzs like Viktoria Volchkova's or Tatiana Malinina's anymore. That is in the past. We live here and now - why don't you come with?
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
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17,679
I get that Tuktamysheva wants to take baby steps as far as increasing the difficulty to her program, but I don't quite understand why she thinks she has to take one of the 3A out to do the 4T. She's pretty reliable in terms of actually rotating the 3A both times. Even if she's stepping out of one or whatever, she's getting big points for it.
 

NadezhdaNadya

Banned Member
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Oh Nadya! LOLOLOL! This 'poor' technique you are talking about is accepted by the judges, don't you see that? We will probably never see big 3Lzs like Viktoria Volchkova's or Tatiana Malinina's anymore. That is in the past. We live here and now - why don't you come with?
Hahaha :) BUT is it really in the past, as you say? My girl Alexia Paganini jumps textbook triple lutz with minimal pre-rotation and outside edge. :) Veronika Zhilina jumps quad lutz with minimal pre-rotation and outside edge (underrotated, but still). Can you imagine this - quad lutz with minimal pre-rotation! She also jumps triple lutz with minimal pre-rotation.
Alexia is 19 and Veronika is 12. Both are competing NOW, not in the past, not 10 years ago.
My girl Alyona while not having textbook technique still has much better technique than Anna. Alyona jumps when her body is upright (not twisting and bending like Anna), has smaller pre-rotation and jumps with her legs (not with her back like Anna).
 
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Scott512

Well-Known Member
Messages
855
This. :) I remember that I was so excited after they changed the rules that I could not sleep the whole night. But... these rules were canceled.
Anna - she has the poorest jump technique I have ever seen for a skater at that level. It is just embarrassing. Why all the other skaters worked harder in order to have better technique and Anna never did? Yet... She seems to be so proud and with such high self-esteem...? Yuna Kim was modest despite all of her success.

This. :) I remember that I was so excited after they changed the rules that I could not sleep the whole night. But... these rules were canceled.
Anna - she has the poorest jump technique I have ever seen for a skater at that level. It is just embarrassing. Why all the other skaters worked harder in order to have better technique and Anna never did? Yet... She seems to be so proud and with such high self-esteem...? Yuna Kim was modest despite all of her success.
Anya like Yuna is modest and classy.

I like that none of the EG skaters ever talked negatively about anyone else. They are trained and brought up very well.

Anna just has this regal aristocratic look to her like she could be the princess daughter of Tsar Nicholas or Peter the Great! :)
Aliona one of yours and my favorites has that too.
 

muffinplus

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Messages
4,321
Her pre-rotation and full blade assist on take off are real technical issues. Not to say they take away from her achievements, but ISU was going to introduce rules to deduct points for these flaws and then the decision got halted due to the YKW. If these rules come back next season Anna will be adversely impacted on TES. I also worry for her ankles with the way she takes off on the quads.

People have been worried about her ankles since 2018... if I recall correctly she was going to lose her quads next year according to experts. ;)
Hahaha :) BUT is it really in past, as you say? My girl Alexia Paganini jumps textbook triple lutz with minimal pre-rotation and outside edge. :) Veronika Zhilina jumps quad lutz with minimal pre-rotation and outside edge (underrotated, but still). Can you imagine this - quad lutz with minimal pre-rotation! She also jumps triple lutz with minimal pre-rotation.
Alexia is 19 and Veronika is 12. Both are competing NOW, not in the past, not 10 years ago.
My girl Alyona while not having textbook technique still has much better technique than Anna. Alyona jumps when her body is upright (not twisting and bending like Anna), has smaller pre-rotation and jumps with her legs (not with her back like Anna).

Anna's quad lutz is not really 3.25, it's more like 3.5, which makes it legit. (I won't get into arguments about prerotation, but 3.5 is acceptable in my book). Sure she should be given an unclear edge, which would reduce her GOE... but that doesn't detract from the difficulty of her jump or negate the other positive features? She has great flow and good height....

As for Alexia, she cannot do a lutz with even 3.5 rotations in the air. Her 3 lutz may have minimal pre-rotation, but there is still some probably, so it's more like a 2.75. So, again, who exactly does even 3.5 revolutions in the air (other than Zhilina?.Who probably has 3.75)? All these complaints about the unfairness, when nobody else does even 3.5 in the air are just silly...
 
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NadezhdaNadya

Banned Member
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People have been worried about her ankles since 2018... if I recall correctly she was going to lose her quads next year according to experts. ;)


Anna's quad lutz is not really 3.25, it's more like 3.5, which makes it legit. (I won't get into arguments about prerotation, but 3.5 is acceptable in my book). Sure she should be given an unclear edge, which would reduce her GOE... but that doesn't detract from the difficulty of her jump or negate the other positive features? She has great flow and good height.... the

As for Alexia, she cannot do a lutz with even 3.5 rotations in the air. Her 3 lutz may have minimal pre-rotation, but there is still some probably, so it's more like a 2.75. So, again, who exactly does even 3.5 revolutions in the air (other than Zhilina?.Who probably has 3.75)? All these complaints about the unfairness, when nobody else does even 3.5 in the air are just silly...
Where do you see 3.50 revolutions in the air from Anna? It is exactly 3.25 revolutions in the air. She pre-rotates more than 200 degrees. Not legit by far.
Also - Anna pre-rotates her triple lutz, her triple flip, her double lutz and her double flip the same way. So for these jumps she has 2.25 revolutions in the air and 1.25 revolutions in the air.
Alexia declares triple lutz and jumps triple lutz with textbook technique - minimal pre-rotation, outside edge, with significant height and distance. Receives 0.50 GOE.
Anna declares triple lutz and jumps triple lutz with excessive pre-rotation, flat edge, with small height and distance. Receives 1.50 GOE.
 
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Natanielle825

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214
This 'poor' technique you are talking about is accepted by the judges
I mean...it's not really up to the judges. ISU has a rulebook. Clearly states that lutzes take off on an outside edge and flips on an inside edge. Clearly states that Technical Panel is supposed to call jumps that take off on the wrong edge as well as obvious half-turn pre-rotations. So most of the onus goes on the TP. If you want to argue that if the TP doesn't call it, the judges aren't obligated to give a low GOE...I guess that's true. Doesn't make the jump correct, just means the TP didn't do their job.
 

Tobbe

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183
I get that Tuktamysheva wants to take baby steps as far as increasing the difficulty to her program, but I don't quite understand why she thinks she has to take one of the 3A out to do the 4T. She's pretty reliable in terms of actually rotating the 3A both times. Even if she's stepping out of one or whatever, she's getting big points for it.
Yes, these calculation errors that team Mishin does all the time confuses me. If she's taking out a 3A it's not worth it IMO as her 4T is not as realiable. It's just +1.5 points BV! It can be a stamina problem though, she might not have the stamina for three difficult jumps in the program.
But those 3Lz+2A sequences need to go. That is points on the table just thrown away.
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
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4,321
Where do you see 3.50 revolutions in the air from Anna? It is exactly 3.25 revolutions in the air. She pre-rotates more than 200 degrees. Not legit by far.

Here - https://youtu.be/9bVsr8KP968?t=399

In slow motion. It's not 200, it's not even over 180.

Also - Anna pre-rotates her triple lutz, her triple flip, her double lutz and her double flip the same way. So for these jumps she has 2.25 revolutions in the air and 1.25 revolutions in the air.
Alexia declares triple lutz and jumps triple lutz with textbook technique - minimal pre-rotation, outside edge, with significant height and distance. Receives 0.50 GOE.
Anna declares triple lutz and jumps triple lutz with excessive pre-rotation, flat edge, with small height and distance. Receives 1.50 GOE.

Nope. She has 2.5 revolutions i would guess (I would need a rewatch) Vs Alexia's 2.75. Also textbook technique is something that fans invented to be "the only correct one", based on an ISU simulation video. I haven't really looked at the features of Alexia's lutz; I would agree that it perhaps deserve more, but pre-rotation has nothing to do with GOE, and judges don't care. I don't want to argue about this, but this is beating a dead horse, it's not considered a factor for GOE. Anyways, that was last post from me on this.
 

tony

Throwing the (rule)book at them
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17,679
Yes, these calculation errors that team Mishin does all the time confuses me. If she's taking out a 3A it's not worth it IMO as her 4T is not as realiable. It's just +1.5 points BV! It can be a stamina problem though, she might not have the stamina for three difficult jumps in the program.
But those 3Lz+2A sequences need to go. That is points on the table just thrown away.
She could get away with:
3A+2T
3A
4T
3Lz
3F+3T
3Lo
3Lz+2T+2Lo (would be better to do +Eu+3S here but.. not gonna happen)

Which would be more than enough to stay competitive, and she can skip the 3S altogether. But instead, we will probably see the same exact program setup as before with only the 4T replacing a 3A.
 

alchemy void

Post-its for the win.
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27,291
She could get away with:
3A+2T
3A
4T
3Lz
3F+3T
3Lo
3Lz+2T+2Lo

I love Tuk but I don't think she has enough stamina/strength for that jump layout this year. Even in ideal training conditions I think it's a stretch, but probably not happening after losing weeks of training time due to c0vid.

This could be an ideal jump layout for next season's Sandstorm LP, though. 🙏
 

Ka3sha

Well-Known Member
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8,727
I think she clearly understands that this layout with a quad instead of one of the triple axels won’t bring her a lot in terms of BV, and she knows her form won’t be good enough by the end of January to land a quad and two triple axels in one program. But it’s also important to start executing quad in completions. And this fake Euros event will be a perfect chance to do so (seems the Worlds team will be most likely determined at Russian Cup Final in the end of February)
 

Tobbe

Well-Known Member
Messages
183
She could get away with:
3A+2T
3A
4T
3Lz
3F+3T
3Lo
3Lz+2T+2Lo (would be better to do +Eu+3S here but.. not gonna happen)

Which would be more than enough to stay competitive, and she can skip the 3S altogether. But instead, we will probably see the same exact program setup as before with only the 4T replacing a 3A.
Yes, much better layout. And the 3Lz+2T+2Lo at the end is worth more than that darn 3Lz+2A SEQ. She will probably have to settle for that as she seems to don't have the strenght to do a triple+triple combo late in the program.
 

NadezhdaNadya

Banned Member
Messages
37
Here - https://youtu.be/9bVsr8KP968?t=399

In slow motion. It's not 200, it's not even over 180.



Nope. She has 2.5 revolutions i would guess (I would need a rewatch) Vs Alexia's 2.75. Also textbook technique is something that fans invented to be "the only correct one", based on an ISU simulation video. I haven't really looked at the features of Alexia's lutz; I would agree that it perhaps deserve more, but pre-rotation has nothing to do with GOE, and judges don't care. I don't want to argue about this, but this is beating a dead horse, it's not considered a factor for GOE. Anyways, that was last post from me on this.
I watched in 0.25 speed. 3.25 revolutions in the air for Anna's quad lutz. More than 200 degrees pre-rotation.
GOE is related with pre-rotation though. Poor take off means less GOE. Plus Anna's jumps have small height and distance which means she should not get more +3 GOE. She is often receives +5. Less GOE also for her wrong edges.
 
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