Gymnastic news #22 - Tokyo or bust

[VGThuy]

This could be a whole separate thread

I would love to know who (which country) created each routine.

Me too!

One comment I remember was that it seemed they were kind of pissed that compulsories were going away, so they made them pretty hard in the 1993-1996 quad. I remember reading that apparently Bela Karyoli joked that those compulsories were harder than some gymnasts’ optional routines.

 

[Amy L]

An example of NBC;s love affair with the Karolyis: here's Dominique Moceanu's beam routine in Atlanta. Is there a reason Bela has to be hollering into the mike the entire time?

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Olympics Team Optionals - Balance Beam

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Olympics Team Optionals - Balance Beam

www.youtube.com

That's what Dominique said on the 30 for 30 podcast (almost caught up!). She practiced her vaults with an extra mat (forgot what she called what kind of mat is was) but he didn't provide her with one when she went up for vault. She needed him to actually coach her but he was screaming nonsense at the camera instead.

I couldn't find the NBC coverage but I can kind of hear him yelling over the crowd.

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Atlanta Olympic - VT

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Atlanta Olympic - VT

youtu.be

 

[bardtoob]

Which Olympic quad had the best constructed compulsory routines all-around? Then individually? I love compulsories and am trying to broaden my exposure to them.

Cathy Rigby 1972 Olympics Team Compulsories (all 4 events)

Cathy Rigby performs her compulsory routines in the uneven bars, balance beam, floor exercise, and vault during the team competition of the 1972 Olympic Games.

www.youtube.com

1976 FRA-ROM Teodora Ungureanu compulsory FX

Romanian gymnast Teodora Ungureanu performs her compulsory floor routine at the 1976 FRA-ROM dual meet.

www.youtube.com

1980 Olympics Natalia Shaposhnikova compulsory FX

Soviet gymnast Natalia Shaposhnikova performs the compulsory floor exercise at the 1980 Olympic Games.

www.youtube.com

Ekaterina Szabo (ROM) 1984 Olympics Team Compulsories Floor

Ekaterina Szabo on floor at the 1984 Olympic Games in Los Angeles. team compulsories.

www.youtube.com

Daniela Silivas - 1988 Seoul Olympic - FX

Daniela Silivas - 1988 Seoul Olympic - FX

www.youtube.com

Shannon Miller - 1992 Olympics Team Compulsories - Floor Exercise

Shannon Miller - 1992 Olympics Team Compulsories - Floor Exercise

www.youtube.com

Lilia Podkopayeva - 1996 Olympics Team Compulsories - Floor Exercise

Lilia Podkopayeva - 1996 Olympics Team Compulsories - Floor Exercise

www.youtube.com

 

[HeatherC]

FYI, Simone Biles is scheduled to do an interview sometime during the first two hours of The Today Show tomorrow (Thursday morning between 7-9 AM EST).

 

[Bellanca]

Béla was shameless, absolutely shameless. Shucking and jiving the crowd, punked-out the camera at every opportunity. I think he forgot about gymnastics at times. The Béla show. Sheesh!

 

[Bellanca]

Cathy Rigby 1972 Olympics Team Compulsories (all 4 events)

Cathy Rigby performs her compulsory routines in the uneven bars, balance beam, floor exercise, and vault during the team competition of the 1972 Olympic Games.

www.youtube.com

1976 FRA-ROM Teodora Ungureanu compulsory FX

Romanian gymnast Teodora Ungureanu performs her compulsory floor routine at the 1976 FRA-ROM dual meet.

www.youtube.com

1980 Olympics Natalia Shaposhnikova compulsory FX

Soviet gymnast Natalia Shaposhnikova performs the compulsory floor exercise at the 1980 Olympic Games.

www.youtube.com

Ekaterina Szabo (ROM) 1984 Olympics Team Compulsories Floor

Ekaterina Szabo on floor at the 1984 Olympic Games in Los Angeles. team compulsories.

www.youtube.com

Daniela Silivas - 1988 Seoul Olympic - FX

Daniela Silivas - 1988 Seoul Olympic - FX

www.youtube.com

Shannon Miller - 1992 Olympics Team Compulsories - Floor Exercise

Shannon Miller - 1992 Olympics Team Compulsories - Floor Exercise

www.youtube.com

Lilia Podkopayeva - 1996 Olympics Team Compulsories - Floor Exercise

Lilia Podkopayeva - 1996 Olympics Team Compulsories - Floor Exercise

www.youtube.com

Silivas is still the gold standard. Her FX was a masterpiece.

 

[FiveRinger]

One thing that I found fascinating in 1972 was that each team had different routines, but they all shared the same choreography. I don't know when that started, if it was always that way. I remember Gordon Maddox explaining this during her compulsory FX. That changed when everyone did the same routine to the same music. It's so interesting watching the evolution.

 

[honey]

That's what Dominique said on the 30 for 30 podcast (almost caught up!). She practiced her vaults with an extra mat (forgot what she called what kind of mat is was) but he didn't provide her with one when she went up for vault. She needed him to actually coach her but he was screaming nonsense at the camera instead.

I couldn't find the NBC coverage but I can kind of hear him yelling over the crowd.

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Atlanta Olympic - VT

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Atlanta Olympic - VT

youtu.be

After listening to the podcast, I went back to look at her vaults from the AA. The sting mat is there and perhaps not surprisingly, much better landings than in team finals. What kind of jack ass refuses to put the extra mat down when the gymnast has only ever done the vault with the mat in place?!

I was rewatching some of the 96 team final last night as well. Bela is basically blabbering nonsense word salads any time he talked to a gymnast. Nunno wasn’t much better.

In general, the 96 commentary and praise for the coaches is so over the top and cringy given what we know now, it’s almost hard to watch anymore. Ie the opening fluff on Romania that says Bellu devoted his life to creating a safe space for his girls .

 

[Rob]

Team Australia is speaking out on abuse too. Was that during Liddick’s head coach tenure? Now it’s US, GB, Holland, Australia, Ireland, Switzerland, and the list goes on.

I watched one episode of All Around where the Chinese coach told Yile she should not worry about her AA ranking and should worry about healing her body. Just for cameras? I have to say the Chinese coaches shake hands with the athlete no matter whether it was a good routine or a fall, maybe just in public but they don’t glare and turn their backs like many of our coaches.


Good move GK elite: https://usagym.org/pages/post.html?PostID=25565

 

[VGThuy]

I think we sort of have to face the facts that gymnastics is really a dangerous activity and it really creates unhealthy attitudes about having these athletes who start as young children do really difficult and near-impossible physical feats. One time, a long time fan commented on why gymnastics died in Romania and other Soviet bloc countries, and they compared to being a gymnast to being a geisha....you wouldn't want to do it if you had other choices. Which is sad because I bet almost everyone who started loved it and even the ones who had a rough time of it actually do love the part of the sport that drew them in. It reminds me of that convo Gracie Gold and Michelle Kwan had where Gracie said she was able to remind herself how much she loved skating once she hit rock bottom and was climbing back up. Gracie said everything was hard and tough, but it was the actual skating itself that she loved during that process, not all the other stuff around it.

 

[her grace]

That's what Dominique said on the 30 for 30 podcast (almost caught up!). She practiced her vaults with an extra mat (forgot what she called what kind of mat is was) but he didn't provide her with one when she went up for vault. She needed him to actually coach her but he was screaming nonsense at the camera instead.

Kerri Strug said in her book Landing on My Feet that during the 30-second touch warm-ups, she and Moceanu were confused about which vaults to do. Strug said usually, you got 3 attempts, but at the Olympics, each gymnast only got two. Both Strug and Moceanu did easier vaults, and neither warmed up the Yurchenko 1.5. So that's a failure of coaching, and you can blame Marta as much as Bela in that she was right there on the floor and her individual athletes did not know which vaults to warm up.

An example of NBC;s love affair with the Karolyis: here's Dominique Moceanu's beam routine in Atlanta. Is there a reason Bela has to be hollering into the mike the entire time?

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Olympics Team Optionals - Balance Beam

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Olympics Team Optionals - Balance Beam

www.youtube.com

That's an NBC thing. It seemed like they had every coach miked at the 1999 nationals, and we got to hear all kinds of inane MLT sayings like "Kick the ball" while Jennie Thompson swung bars. It's like NBC has decided that gymnastics--one of the most thrilling and exciting sports in the world--can't stand on its own merits and needs all these fake storylines, drama, and people storylines. Since most athletes don't tend to last more than one quad, the personality focus is on the coaches since they come back year after year.

 

[VGThuy]

Where are we with one-touch warm-ups these days? When did they get rid of them and did they reinstate them? If so, when?

 

[Bellanca]

Kerri Strug said in her book Landing on My Feet that during the 30-second touch warm-ups, she and Moceanu were confused about which vaults to do. Strug said usually, you got 3 attempts, but at the Olympics, each gymnast only got two. Both Strug and Moceanu did easier vaults, and neither warmed up the Yurchenko 1.5. So that's a failure of coaching, and you can blame Marta as much as Bela in that she was right there on the floor and her individual athletes did not know which vaults to warm up

Yup, exactly. This is a pretty tame "criticism" coming from Kerri, but still a thumbs down regarding B&M's coaching style. Kerri catches a lot of heat for being too reticent and PC about anything Károlyi, but she did share a small critical nugget of apparent disorganization and distraction.

 

[canbelto]

If you look back at Moceanu's routines the Alexandrov influence is actually obvious. Her bars routine is very much a predecessor to the Russian bars routines of Komova and Mustafina: lots of in-bars transitions and an emphasis on form and a difficult dismount.

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Atlanta Olympic - UB (3)

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Atlanta Olympic - UB (3)

www.youtube.com

This is a comparison with Kerri Strug's routine which is very Karolyi style:

Kerri Strug - 1996 Olympics Team Optionals - Uneven Bars

Kerri Strug - 1996 Olympics Team Optionals - Uneven Bars

www.youtube.com

 

[Bellanca]

I was rewatching some of the 96 team final last night as well. Bela is basically blabbering nonsense word salads any time he talked to a gymnast. Nunno wasn’t much better.

X1000! Nunno. Oh, man... where to start with Nunno.

 

[canbelto]

Hmm Dominque said she was "jealous" of Shannon because she noticed Shannon could cry and get frustrated and lash out during practices whereas if you showed any frustration with the Karolyis you got in trouble. Also Shannon was also allowed to socialize with the "other girls on the team" whereas the Karolyi girls had to sit with Bela and Marta the whole time. I also remember an interview with Shannon where she was asked who was "scarier" (Peggy or Nunno) and she said without hesitation "Peggy."

So I think Nunno fell on the "bad, not not in the same league as the Karolyis" level of awfulness which isn't saying much but ...

 

[floskate]

If you look back at Moceanu's routines the Alexandrov influence is actually obvious. Her bars routine is very much a predecessor to the Russian bars routines of Komova and Mustafina: lots of in-bars transitions and an emphasis on form and a difficult dismount.

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Atlanta Olympic - UB (3)

Dominique Moceanu - 1996 Atlanta Olympic - UB (3)

www.youtube.com

This is a comparison with Kerri Strug's routine which is very Karolyi style:

Kerri Strug - 1996 Olympics Team Optionals - Uneven Bars

Kerri Strug - 1996 Olympics Team Optionals - Uneven Bars

www.youtube.com

Why did she leave Alexandrov? I don't know a lot about this particular era of gymnastics in the US outside of Shannon and Kim. Those bars comparisons are very interesting. Always disliked Karolyi bars and beam to an extent. Can't argue with the power tumbling and vaulting, both of which Strug was excellent at, as was Zmeskal.

My biggest issue with Karolyi style gymnastics was always lack of extension and flexibility. That and endless "ta-da" flicks on floor and beam. I was watching the '96 compulsories the other night and Boguinskaya's compulsory FX in Atlanta shows how much she had been Karolyified. Too sharp, too jerky, shoulderline not what it could have been and nothing like what she could have done with this exercise under her previous coaching and style. Why mess with beauty? For me, none of the Americans really suited the very classical nature of compulsory floor exercises. Everything looks very forced.

 

[bardtoob]

I was watching the '96 compulsories the other night and Boguinskaya's compulsory FX in Atlanta shows how much she had been Karolyified.

Why mess with beauty?

Perhaps there wasn't much of a choice. The Soviet system was gone, and Belarus had not inherited top coaches or equipment. She needed somebody that could drum up press and sponsorship in order to get decent conditions, and they needed the spotlight.

 

[bardtoob]

I never knew Julianne McNamara won an Uneven Bars Bronze at the 1981 World Championships in Moscow, tying Davydova.

1	Maxi Gnauck (GDR)	10.000	9.900	19.900
2	Ma Yanhong (CHN)	9.900	9.900	19.800
3	Julianne McNamara (USA)	9.900	9.800	19.700
3	Elena Davydova (URS)	9.800	9.900	19.700
5	Cristina Grigoraș (ROU)	9.850	9.800	19.650
6	Chen Yongyan (CHN)	9.700	9.800	19.500
7	Lavinia Agache (ROU)	9.700	9.750	19.450
8	Olga Bicherova (URS)	9.550	9.850	19.400

Julianne McNamara - 1981 Worlds EF - Uneven Bars

Julianne McNamara - 1981 Worlds EF - Uneven Bars

www.youtube.com

To me, that does a lot to legitimize her tie for the Olympic Gold Medal with Ma Yanhong despite the boycott, and they both just look to be as primed as Maxi Gnauck was in 1981. There is some debate about Julianne's "very difficult mount and standard gymnastics" vs Ma's "very difficult dismount and original gymnastics", but I think it balances out.

Ma Yanhong (CHN)​	9.900	10.000	9.950	10.000	19.950
Julianne McNamara (USA)​	9.900	10.000	9.950	10.000	19.950

Olympic Champions - Los Angeles 1984 Bars - McNamara & Ma

Olympic Champions in Women's Artistic Gymnastics Los Angeles 1984 Uneven bars Julianne McNamara (USA) and Ma Yanhong (China) Compulsories: 9,900 Optionals: 1...

www.youtube.com

 

[Erin]

Why did she leave Alexandrov?

Not by choice. Alexandrov was employed at the Karolyis’ gym during some part of their “retirement” between Barcelona and Atlanta. According to Dominique’s book, he was abruptly fired by the Karolyis shortly before 1995 Nationals. Basically, one day she was making plans with him for what they were going to work on in the next practice, and then the next day she showed up and Bela and Marta were running the practice with no explanation. She theorized that they saw how well she was doing and wanted to take all the credit for it.

 

[FiveRinger]

I never knew Julianne McNamara won a Bronze at the 1981 World Championships in Moscow, tying Davydova . To me, that does a lot to legitimize her Olympic Gold Medal despite the boycott.

1	Maxi Gnauck (GDR)	10.000	9.900	19.900
2	Ma Yanhong (CHN)	9.900	9.900	19.800
3	Julianne McNamara (USA)	9.900	9.800	19.700
3	Elena Davydova (URS)	9.800	9.900	19.700
5	Cristina Grigoraș (ROU)	9.850	9.800	19.650
6	Chen Yongyan (CHN)	9.700	9.800	19.500
7	Lavinia Agache (ROU)	9.700	9.750	19.450
8	Olga Bicherova (URS)	9.550	9.850	19.400

Julianne McNamara - 1981 Worlds EF - Uneven Bars

Julianne McNamara - 1981 Worlds EF - Uneven Bars

www.youtube.com

Olympic Champions - Los Angeles 1984 Bars - McNamara & Ma

Olympic Champions in Women's Artistic Gymnastics Los Angeles 1984 Uneven bars Julianne McNamara (USA) and Ma Yanhong (China) Compulsories: 9,900 Optionals: 1...

www.youtube.com

Julianne was a lovely gymnast, especially on bars. She was undeservedly overshadowed by MLR in 1984. She had established a very good reputation internationally by then, as had Szabo. If it had been a fully contested games, or had they been somewhere other than North America, MLR wouldn’t have won the AA. I might be wrong for saying this, but off the top of my head, I can’t think of an athlete who benefitted from the boycott more. It makes all of her most recent statements and actions even more reprehensible. She has made it really hard to be her fan.

 

[danafan]

Even though she only won the US Championships once (in 1980), McNamara was known internationally as the top US gymnast through most of that cycle. Unfortunately she was inconsistent in competition. In 1983 worlds she made vault and bars finals, but she fell in the bar final despite being in medal contention. In the AA final at 1983 worlds, she did by far IMO the best bar routine in the competition but did not get a 10.0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVKVeeqraVQ

Even at the Olympics she had a fall off beam in optionals and another major break on beam in the AA final which cost her a chance for an AA medal.

She probably competed internationally more than any other US gymnasts that cycle.

 

[bardtoob]

For funzies:

Roza Galiyeva is not impressed with Alexander Alexandrov

*sneer*

www.youtube.com

 

[FiveRinger]

Even though she only won the US Championships once (in 1980), McNamara was known internationally as the top US gymnast through most of that cycle. Unfortunately she was inconsistent in competition. In 1983 worlds she made vault and bars finals, but she fell in the bar final despite being in medal contention. In the AA final at 1983 worlds, she did by far IMO the best bar routine in the competition but did not get a 10.0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVKVeeqraVQ

Even at the Olympics she had a fall off beam in optionals and another major break on beam in the AA final which cost her a chance for an AA medal.

She probably competed internationally more than any other US gymnasts that cycle.

One of those Worlds she was sick, had the flu, according to the commentary from video that I’ve seen. I think that it was 1983. She really had a rough go of it. I preferred her to that same damn temper tantrum that we saw from most of Bela’s top gymnasts. I know we saw it from Nadia, MLR and Kristie Phillips. I was glad when it finally died.

 

[Bellanca]

Hmm Dominque said she was "jealous" of Shannon because she noticed Shannon could cry and get frustrated and lash out during practices whereas if you showed any frustration with the Karolyis you got in trouble. Also Shannon was also allowed to socialize with the "other girls on the team" whereas the Karolyi girls had to sit with Bela and Marta the whole time. I also remember an interview with Shannon where she was asked who was "scarier" (Peggy or Nunno) and she said without hesitation "Peggy."

So I think Nunno fell on the "bad, not not in the same league as the Karolyis" level of awfulness which isn't saying much but ...

It doesn't surprise me that Shannon said Peggy was "scarier" than Nunno. Nunno was a piece of work, though. However, fast-forward to Geddert, who was worse, much worse. Sadly, we have learned that many coaches fell short of expectations, which is a gross understatement. I would suggest that many were simply troubled, instead.

B&M may have helped deliver some golden moments for USAG, but at what price? A horrible and excruciatingly high price to pay for the gymnasts, and a severe obstacle to overcome for a sport struggling to rehabilitate itself. It can be done, but only with a complete and total overhaul. Nothing short of a clean slate will do—no forks in the road.

 

[Choupette]

Not by choice. Alexandrov was employed at the Karolyis’ gym during some part of their “retirement” between Barcelona and Atlanta. According to Dominique’s book, he was abruptly fired by the Karolyis shortly before 1995 Nationals. Basically, one day she was making plans with him for what they were going to work on in the next practice, and then the next day she showed up and Bela and Marta were running the practice with no explanation. She theorized that they saw how well she was doing and wanted to take all the credit for it.

How I wish she would have had the freedom to ask her father for permission to train at Alexandrov's new gym until the Olympic Games. She wrote he was good at training her in a way to avoid injuries. I would have loved to see Alexandrov's final product. I'm confident she would have avoided that stress fracture, or at least get to heal it quickly instead of making it worse for quite some time.

I found it hard to appreciate her gymnastics given what I felt was artificial hype (I knew it wasn't her fault but I couldn't completely put it aside). I also have a feeling I would have liked her routines a little better with more Alexandrov flavor into them. In any case, I would have loved to see the best version of the athlete she could have been at the time.

 

[Bellanca]

Julianne was a lovely gymnast, especially on bars

So happy to see posters discussing JM! She is one of my all-time favorite US gymnasts. She had her share of competitive ups and downs, but she was a terrific gymnast and a fan favorite.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

Khorkina is never short of things to say...

... on gymnasts speaking out against abuse: They just want fame

 

[Choupette]

Khorkina is never short of things to say...

... on gymnasts speaking out against abuse: They just want fame

She sounds like she is the 1920s.

 

[bardtoob]

I also remember an interview with Shannon where she was asked who was "scarier" (Peggy or Nunno) and she said without hesitation "Peggy."

It doesn't surprise me that Shannon said Peggy was "scarier" than Nunno. Nunno was a piece of work, though.

However, as far as I know, Shannon has never complained of abuse.