U.S. Pairs 2019-20 season - News & Updates, Part X

aftershocks said:
Right, the tweet won't load. There must be a family illness involved, but clearly it was thought best (and rightly so) not to blame a family illness for their withdrawal. I even thought perhaps the Knierims might better have chosen to skip 4CCs altogether in order to concentrate on being in their best shape for Worlds, since the turnaround from Nationals was very quick for 4CCs. That way, U.S. fed might have been able to send D/F (to reward their season) or Lu/Mitrofanov (to gain more experience).

OTOH, the idea may have been to keep momentum going. But since the Knierims weren't perfect in the fp at U.S. Nats, maybe think about foregoing 4CCs mostly because of the travel and the very quick turnaround from Nationals. And just go back to training and dealing emotionally with whatever family situation is going on.
Click to expand...
I wonder if the family illness came about after they got to Korea. That might explain Chris’ lack of focus in the short. Maybe they thought they could compete and determined they couldn’t. Or maybe the situation was bad enough that they needed to leave quickly. I’m a huge fan of the Kneirims and hope everything is okay.
Full disclosure: when I saw the withdrawal, my first thought was, “I wonder if C/J will go to worlds in their place.“ Now I can’t remember if they were first alternates.
 
So after skating the 3rd best FS at 4Cs and ending as to top Americans, are C/J still out of Worlds?
 
mpal2 said:
I would think someone would have to withdraw because the team was already named.
Click to expand...
I didn’t explicitly state that, but I did wonder if the Kneirims will withdraw from worlds as well. Depends on the nature of the family illness. For them to WD as they did makes me think it’s something serious.
 
After 4CCs, the USFSA needs to revisit the US pairs selection for Worlds. That said, I understand that the Knierims would have to withdraw from Worlds at this point for C/J to have that opportunity. I keep repeating that it would have been a good idea for them to use 4CCs as a skate-off like Skate Canada did this year (and how Russia typically uses Euros). The US now has a small handful of pairs capable of being in the top 10, certainly in no position to lose 2 spots for 2021, so the danger of using any combo of 2 pairs would probably yield the same result for the US in the end. Perhaps the USFSA saw a pathway to 3 spots with earlier season scores from the Knierims and CG/L, but P/J from China were one of the pairs that an American pair would have to pass, and that doesn't look like it will happen.
 
Pairs to Worlds: Knierims, Cain-Gribble/LeDuc
Alternates in order: Calalang/Johnson, Kayne/O'Shea, Denney/Frazier


C/J are first alternates to Worlds if there's a withdrawal.

At first, I thought family illness meant someone in one of Alexa/Chris' families is ill. But sure it could also mean one of them contracted an illness during travel or once they reached Seoul. Hopefully, they can recover and be at full strength for Worlds, but we'll see.

I think C/J performed very well at 4CCs under pressure in the final group. The fact of the matter is though that their PCS were held down in both sp and fp, with a slight increase in PCS for the fp:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1920/fc2020/SEG005.htm sp scores
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1920/fc2020/SEG006.htm fp scores

Just looking at C/J float effortlessly over the ice with gorgeous, difficult lifts, good throws, lovely death spirals, exceptional 3-twist, wonderful chemistry and top-notch SS (combined with beautiful costumes and engaging music), they definitely should have received higher scores on PCS in both programs easily. The hold back on PCS is based purely on politics and C/J coming in being seen as the 2nd U.S. pair with lesser experience together. Still, based on the performances, they might well have won a bronze at 4CCs with more deserving PCS.
 
olympic said:
P/J from China were one of the pairs that an American pair would have to pass, and that doesn't look like it will happen.
Click to expand...

P/J upped their game at 4CCs, because they were purposely performing double salchows early in the season. P/J have the potential to be great. While they have good chemistry and some overall top flight elements, I still don't see them as having yet put together clean, spine-tingling performances on the order of some pairs like S/M, J/C, D/R, S/H, et al. To this point, P/J have been lucky and have performed well enough at the right time. For e.g., P/J's win at Skate America this season was actually nothing to write home about, despite them having wonderful program concepts and choreo this season.

I think C/J are on an excellent track at the moment. It's too bad the judges held them back on PCS, when it's quite clear that C/J rival the top placed teams at 4CCs on speed, power, chemistry, SS, lifts, 3-twist, death spirals, well-executed programs, and a magical quality altogether. C/J's second jumping pass was their only minus GOE. If they'd landed those jumps, they might have edged M-T/M for bronze. As it is, C/J were third in the fp. Once again, C/J's PCS should not actually be lower vs P/J's or M-T/M's IMHO. But that's figure skating. And the other part is as Charlie White noted at U.S. Nat'ls: P/J's programs don't include a lot of transitions. I like the ease and flow of their programs, and I don't think they should clutter with transitions for the sake of it unless they work. Most likely for this season, the simplicity is part of a strategy for a recently paired team. So we'll likely see C/J include more difficulty and transitions next season. But even right now their elements and their packaging deserve better PCS.

I would not say that no American team will ever pass P/J. It didn't happen at 4CCs, and it's unlikely to happen at Worlds this year, but quite clearly if C/J skate their best, they can place ahead of a lot of teams. Once again, a lot is dependent upon politics, perception, skating order and performance under pressure.

U.S. figure skating could have made different choices, but once again, the choices they are confronted with are not that simple. It's easy for us to stand on the sidelines and say what should happen or what choices we would make or would like to see. At this stage, if the Knierims have illness issues that will affect their training, or if they can't get their confidence to the level they need to be at to compete under tough pressure, then it makes sense to rethink their Worlds assignment.

On paper, the Knierims (even without perfect jumping passes) could have at least rivaled M-T/M for bronze at 4CCs had the sbs spin not been missed in the sp. But once again, it's about overcoming nerves and putting out your best or close to your best, because even S/H showed vulnerability at both 4CCs and GPF. So S/H even without being at full strength always seem to stay strong enough mentally (and perception-wise) to pull a win out of the air.
 
I said it in the 4CCs Pairs FS thread and I'll say it here... Unless the K's withdrawal really is due to an unexpected/major family illness/emergency, the USFS needs to pull them from the Worlds team. Just because the USFS has already named them to the Worlds team doesn't mean they can't change that assignment and if the K's withdrew because of injury (which is what SBS Paul was saying during the broadcast) then they should stay home and heal instead of selfishly holding onto that Worlds assignment. Luckily, C/J train with them so I'm sure they will be aware of what the K's real status is and be fully prepared to step in if called upon. But, right now, there's a much bigger upside to sending C/J and helping them build up their PCS than sending the K's again, especially after that mess of a SP they gave us a couple days ago.
 
^^^Unless the Knierims are really injured or that family illness remain unresolved, I can't see USFS not sending them. I know many people love the idea of a skate off or changing assignments when another team skates really well, but that's not going to happen this season.
For the USA to institute a skate off for two or more teams, it'd have to happen before a season starts, not midway through a season. Changing the rules for everybody in the middle of a skating season is unfairest of all. Another thing, wouldn't the use of a skate off for worlds have to be written into the official procedures and bylaws of US skating? I don't think that idea is yet. You can' t just say "Oh we'll use 4CC for a skate off between skating team A and skating team B" when they've already selected the worlds team.
At the rate USA changes anything it'll be after the Beijing Olympics before the US even discusses the option of using 4CC results as a tiebreaker for choosing our entries.
And if I were Calalang/Johnson or Tarah and Danny I'd keep training hard anyway. which they probably will do.
 
aftershocks said:
Right, the tweet won't load. There must be a family illness involved, but clearly it was thought best (and rightly so) not to blame a family illness for their withdrawal. I even thought perhaps the Knierims might better have chosen to skip 4CCs altogether in order to concentrate on being in their best shape for Worlds, since the turnaround from Nationals was very quick for 4CCs. That way, U.S. fed might have been able to send D/F (to reward their season) or Lu/Mitrofanov (to gain more experience).

OTOH, the idea may have been to keep momentum going. But since the Knierims weren't perfect in the fp at U.S. Nats, maybe think about foregoing 4CCs mostly because of the travel and the very quick turnaround from Nationals. And just go back to training and dealing emotionally with whatever family situation is going on.
Click to expand...

Or maybe they just withdrew to avoid further embarrassment by being beaten by the team that should be going to Worlds.
 
Spiralgraph said:
^^^Unless the Knierims are really injured or that family illness remain unresolved, I can't see USFS not sending them. I know many people love the idea of a skate off or changing assignments when another team skates really well, but that's not going to happen this season.
For the USA to institute a skate off for two or more teams, it'd have to happen before a season starts, not midway through a season. Changing the rules for everybody in the middle of a skating season is unfairest of all. Another thing, wouldn't the use of a skate off for worlds have to be written into the official procedures and bylaws of US skating? I don't think that idea is yet. You can' t just say "Oh we'll use 4CC for a skate off between skating team A and skating team B" when they've already selected the worlds team.
At the rate USA changes anything it'll be after the Beijing Olympics before the US even discusses the option of using 4CC results as a tiebreaker for choosing our entries.
And if I were Calalang/Johnson or Tarah and Danny I'd keep training hard anyway. which they probably will do.
Click to expand...
Exactly my point throughout this thread. USFS has a rather detailed three-tier consideration of performance in place and it can't just scrap it. That doesn't mean the situation isn't fluid, it means it could not name C & J to the world team outright. As noted they are first alternates.
 
fsfann said:
Or maybe they just withdrew to avoid further embarrassment by being beaten by the team that should be going to Worlds.
Click to expand...
I don't know if that's the case, since the choice wasn't even between C & J and K & K to start with; there is a certain amount of "embarrassment" as you call it in nearly every skater's career. Finishing a spot or two below a teammate at Four Continents doesn't compare to some of the disappointments many skaters have weathered.
 
nylynnr said:
Exactly my point throughout this thread. USFS has a rather detailed three-tier consideration of performance in place and it can't just scrap it. That doesn't mean the situation isn't fluid, it means it could not name C & J to the world team outright. As noted they are first alternates.
Click to expand...

Of course, Calalang/Johnson could have been chosen outright. It's not like this detailed three-tier consideration can only lead to one named team. For example, USFS chose team A* over team B** for an Olympic Spot and then chose Team B over team A for a World spot using these same criteria:

Tier One:
Nationals: Team A silver; Team B bronze
Previous Worlds: N/A
GPF: N/A

Tier Two
GPs: Team A 6th & 7th; Team B 3rd & 4th
Previous 4CC: Team A 4th; Team B N/A

Tier Three
Previous nationals: Team A 3rd; Team B N/A
Previous Jr. Worlds: N/A
JGPF: N/A

*Zhang/Bartholomay
**Denney/Coughlin
 
nylynnr said:
Exactly my point throughout this thread. USFS has a rather detailed three-tier consideration of performance in place and it can't just scrap it. That doesn't mean the situation isn't fluid, it means it could not name C & J to the world team outright. As noted they are first alternates.
Click to expand...
If that's the case, then it would be easy for you to lay it out. If the situation isn't "fluid" and is rigid, the structure should be easy to see, explain, and understand. Please do so.
 
What I believe is the point is that for this season after the selections for worlds and 4CC were announced some posters here were moaning and groaning and almost expecting that USA figure skating would suddenly change their own selections and have 4CC become a skate off for the world team. That wasn't going to happen no way no how. Yes we can legitimately disagree about who was chosen. But after the committee makes up their mind, unless for injury or illness, they're not going to suddenly change the selections. There's no provision in the rules as they currently are to do that.
Now do I think those rules and by laws should be changed? Probably yes. But that will take time. And sometimes skating rules change with the speed of a tortoise.
 
thvudragon said:
If that's the case, then it would be easy for you to lay it out. If the situation isn't "fluid" and is rigid, the structure should be easy to see, explain, and understand. Please do so.
Click to expand...
I have already laid it out at length in previous posts. By fluid I only mean that the teams chosen will be monitored for fitness.
 
Tesla said:
If 4CCs were going to be used as skate-off, shouldn't C-G/L have been there since they, you know, placed 4th at nationals?
Click to expand...

That was my suggestion in my earliest post. I don't dispute the Knierims going to Worlds [although their WD raises questions for me], but CG/L and C/J having a skate off at 4CCs would have been ideal.

Spiralgraph said:
What I believe is the point is that for this season after the selections for worlds and 4CC were announced some posters here were moaning and groaning and almost expecting that USA figure skating would suddenly change their own selections and have 4CC become a skate off for the world team. That wasn't going to happen no way no how. Yes we can legitimately disagree about who was chosen. But after the committee makes up their mind, unless for injury or illness, they're not going to suddenly change the selections. There's no provision in the rules as they currently are to do that.
Now do I think those rules and by laws should be changed? Probably yes. But that will take time. And sometimes skating rules change with the speed of a tortoise.
Click to expand...

I personally acknowledged the USFSA Worlds team selection and found it rational, even defending CG/L. But right now, based on the WD of the Knierims, and the performance by C/J at both Nationals and 4CCs, I do think the situation is fluid and sending C/J to Worlds, IF there is any question about the state of mind of the Knierims, would be something that I would happily embrace
 
nylynnr said:
I have already laid it out at length in previous posts. By fluid I only mean that the teams chosen will be monitored for fitness.
Click to expand...

It’s kind of hard for me to see the decision being clear cut from the criteria when we don’t know how much each competition is weighted and how the placements are weighed for each competition in each tier. Right now it seems more like a guideline that leaves a lot of room for discretion in a case like this where C/J beat C-G/L in two of their three head-to-heads which happened to fall within the first two tiers and by two placements in the competition that is within the first tier. I mean I think it would have been clearer cut had C-G/L medaled at Worlds and had a great GP season and were medal threats and C/J had a one-off amazing competition but haven’t really shown themselves to be a medal threat. I kind of think that’s when most people think the BOW should be used. So far it seems C-G/L and C/J have similar scoring and placement potential and with C/J beating C-G/L in their last two head-to-heads and placing two places higher at Nationals, most people could see an argument for them even under BOW and can probably find examples of USFS bypassing a skater with a better record being passed over due to losing at Nationals with a similar record to C-G/L unless we’re really treating C-G/L’s top ten finish at Nationals as a medal placement in other disciplines.
 
Last edited:
VGThuy said:
It’s kind of hard for me to see the decision being clear cut from the criteria when we don’t know how much each competition is weighted and how the placements are weighed for each competition in each tier. Right now it seems more like a guideline that leaves a lot of room for discretion in a case like this where C/J beat C-G/L in two of their three head-to-heads which happened to fall within the first two tiers and by two placements in the competition that is within the first tier. I mean I think it would have been clearer cut had C-G/L medaled at Worlds and had a great GP season and were medal threats and C/J had a one-off amazing competition but haven’t really shown themselves to be a medal threat. I kind of think that’s when most people think the BOW should be used. So far it seems C-G/L and C/J have similar scoring and placement potential and with C/J beating C-G/L in their last two head-to-heads and placing two places higher at Nationals, most people could see an argument for them even under BOW and can probably find examples of USFS bypassing a skater with a better record being passed over due to losing at Nationals with a similar record to C-G/L unless we’re really treating C-G/L’s top ten finish at Nationals as a medal placement in other disciplines.
Click to expand...

Good post.

Based on their World Team selection, I do hope that both US pairs can hold it together and maintain two spots for 2021.
 
Karen-W said:
... especially after that mess of a SP...
Click to expand...

I totally agree with what you're saying, but to be fair the 'mess' for Alexa & Chris was collapsing on the jumps, and allowing what happened to cause a lapse on the sbs spin. They were okay on everything else aside from the sbs jumps and the really detrimental lapse on the spin where they received no points. It is crucial to go for the jumps, and then move on with some self-belief no matter what happens on the jumps! As we can see, one person in a pair not landing successfully can affect the other partner. That's what makes jump elements so difficult in pairs skating. It's hard enough to jump by oneself, but to try and match the rhythm and technique of a partner is more difficult than we realize.

Since sbs jumps are a problem for a lot of teams (not just U.S teams), there needs to be a sbs jump whisperer to help teams find their way. I'm sure Raf's teaching technique works, but as he said, it takes time. So who else can help the Knierims at the same time in learning how to deal with the emotional and psychological aspects of letting failure on the jumps roll off their backs while maintaining some steel to finish out programs strong? That's what S/H are generally able to do. How S/H handle 4CCs and other comps compromised by Sui's injury challenges, while remaining mentally strong, should serve as an example and as inspiration for other teams.

Some teams are able to fight for their jumps even if they're not perfect. That fighting for the jumps and stoking some confidence in their overall strengths is what has helped C/J gain momentum and hold their own as the season has progressed. But let's try to keep in mind that pairs skating is not a piece of cake, even though the skaters' task is to try and master the difficulty while making it look easy.
 
Last edited:
fsfann said:
Or maybe they just withdrew to avoid further embarrassment by being beaten by the team that should be going to Worlds.
Click to expand...

Sure, but once again, C/J have been gracious and honest in saying how it's been helpful training with the Knierims. As well, the coaching team at their rink (Meno/Sand, Binder, Szolkowy) surely have been instrumental in C/J's coming together so well so quickly.
 
aftershocks said:
I totally agree with what you're saying, but to be fair the 'mess' for Alexa & Chris was collapsing on the jumps, and allowing what happened to cause a lapse on the sbs spin. They were okay on everything else aside from the sbs jumps and the really detrimental lapse on the spin where they received no points.
Click to expand...

You know, if missing the SBS jumps was some sort of fluke for them and that caused the lapse of concentration on the spins, I could give it a pass the same way many of us gave Tim a pass on the re-position of his pivot during their DS at Nats that cost them all the points on that element. But, errors on the SBS jumps for Alexa and Chris are so freakin' common that everyone reacts in shock when they DO land them successfully. As common as those jump errors are, I'm not giving Chris any pass for a lapse on the SBS spins as an effect of the jump error. You want to give away crucial points on the SBS jumps every program, you do that, but you darn well better bring it on the rest of the elements if you want to have any chance at being competitive.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 5 (members: 0, guests: 5)

Similar threads

Karen-W
2024-25 US Pairs Discussion - Triple-Twisting Through Tornado Alley
21 22 23
Replies
671
Views
143K
Karen-W
Karen-W
Sylvia
U.S. Men 2024-25 news & updates
49 50 51
Replies
2K
Views
233K
Karen-W
Karen-W
Karen-W
US Ice Dance 2024-25 News & Updates
26 27 28
Replies
814
Views
176K
YukiNieve
YukiNieve
Sylvia
  • Locked
U.S. Ice Dance 2023-24 news & updates
37 38 39
Replies
1K
Views
289K
Wyliefan
Wyliefan
Sylvia
  • Locked
U.S. Men 2023-24 news & updates
19 20 21
Replies
614
Views
140K
Capt. DeSoto
C
Back
Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information