U.S. Men 2019-20 season - news & updates
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I think it's a very challenging program, and of course, I think that Tomoki three years from now would probably be able to skate it and perform it in a more complete way than he can right now. But he is a very musical skater. That program has a myriad of changes in tempo, so many of them very subtle. I think a great many athletes attempting the same material wouldn't be able to follow it at all. And I think the role is a very good one for a young skater. I can see Tomoki as Punch much more easily than I can see Andrew in the role from Tosca.
aftershocks
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^^ Well, neither program is exactly working for Tomoki right now, creatively. I believe Tomoki concentrated solely on performing his tech content and stopped trying to express the music and the character. I don't think his costumes do very much for him either. I agree with commentators and former competitors Johnny Weir and Charlie White that the music and character concepts do not enhance Tomoki or his skating style. Still, it was cool seeing Tomoki go hell bent for leather in just landing everything. But it had little to do with paying attention to the music and program concepts. With better music, and Tomoki skating so powerfully, it would really be amazing. Apparently, Tomoki's coaches thought the Punch character would work for him, but at this stage it really doesn't.
I like Andrew Torgashev's sp a great deal. His fp is okay, and he appears to like the powerful Tosca theme, but I can take it or leave it. I don't think Andrew was as present and focused in his fp as he was in his sp. He didn't seem to be managing his nerves and expectations as well. That made a huge difference in how he performed his fp. Plus, as has been often mentioned, Andrew needs to correct his entry technique on his 3-axel.
I like Andrew Torgashev's sp a great deal. His fp is okay, and he appears to like the powerful Tosca theme, but I can take it or leave it. I don't think Andrew was as present and focused in his fp as he was in his sp. He didn't seem to be managing his nerves and expectations as well. That made a huge difference in how he performed his fp. Plus, as has been often mentioned, Andrew needs to correct his entry technique on his 3-axel.
I don’t think the issue is that he’s not musical, and he actually has a loose limbed quality to his movement that should be perfect for Petrushka. It’s the way his program was conceived and choreographed. Have you seen clips of Nureyev performing the role? That’s what’s missing.
olympic
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Tomoki is no Nureyev. I appreciate the fact that he is trying hard with choreography, but he would be better served by something he can handle right now.
jlai
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I rewatched the top men 2-3 times this week.
I agree with those who said TOmoki is so musical and he has crazy transitions.
Jason has good transitions and stretch as usual, but what jumps out now is that he is THE one who actually uses the entire ice surface. He actually skated close to the board a few times. Not something that made a different on the screen but I'm sure live it made a difference.
Alexei is so intense I can't help but love him. He needs to cut down the small stumbles though so as to get his pcs up.
I agree with those who said TOmoki is so musical and he has crazy transitions.
Jason has good transitions and stretch as usual, but what jumps out now is that he is THE one who actually uses the entire ice surface. He actually skated close to the board a few times. Not something that made a different on the screen but I'm sure live it made a difference.
Alexei is so intense I can't help but love him. He needs to cut down the small stumbles though so as to get his pcs up.
aftershocks
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The music, choreography, costumes and the way the programs are constructed don't particularly work for Tomoki. It has little to do with whether or not he himself is musical or creative. He's still developing his on-ice identity, and at this stage of his development, these two program concepts simply do not work well for him, regardless of how they're conceived.
That's a huge reason why I'm so happy for Tomoki!
He threw out the window any attempt to try and express the characters and the music. He just went out there to skate his programs and to ace all his elements with the enthusiasm and joie de vivre we've come to expect of him. At U.S. Nationals, the costumes, music and choreography faded into the background as Tomoki's own delightful personality and tremendous skill came to the fore.I think it's amazing how well he performed, when he didn't allow the encumbrance of the costumes, music and choreo to weigh him down any longer. That really speaks to how absolutely great he can be with material that will actually enhance his talents.
LarrySK8
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Does any one else remember this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJM-0vOVRZU
Was there any doubt at all that Chen was a prodigy and that he would become one of the greats? My goodness, I think he was 9 or 10 years old.
Never a doubt.
Was there any doubt at all that Chen was a prodigy and that he would become one of the greats? My goodness, I think he was 9 or 10 years old.
Never a doubt.
LeafOnTheWind
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I've always looked for Chen since his first appearance at Nationals. I always did an 
when people said he was just a jumper during the run up to the Olympics. Nathan always had the PCS ability. He also does the math and it was obvious the Olympic year strategy was on jumps. It was a smart choice IMO that just didn't work out because of bombing the short.
when people said he was just a jumper during the run up to the Olympics. Nathan always had the PCS ability. He also does the math and it was obvious the Olympic year strategy was on jumps. It was a smart choice IMO that just didn't work out because of bombing the short.
aftershocks
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Wow those opening twizzle turns out of nowhere. And boy, Nathan was a very good spinner at that age! Ten years ago, and 2010 seems like yesterday when I think about it. ♥
The below Junior Worlds fp performance is obvious additional proof of Nathan's artistic strengths, even at a young age. Around that time he also suffered through a lot of struggles with a growth spurt and the Osgood-Schlatter bone disease that some young athletes experience:
Nathan CHEN - 2015 World Junior Championships - LP
Nathan CHEN - 2015 World Junior Championships - LP
www.youtube.com
The reason why Nathan and Raf looked a bit down after the excellent fp scores was because of their recognition that Nathan could have won with those fp scores had he performed equally as well in his sp, where he had some problems that year...
Nathan's ballet & gymnastic training, combined with his musical skill (piano) all hold him in excellent stead as a well-rounded elite competitive figure skater.
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I saw all Nathan's Nationals performances from novice till the present. I'm not going to claim that in 2010 and 2011 I expected him to develop the prodigious jumping ability he has today--I had seen too many skaters who never mastered triple-triples or the triple Axel. But I was struck by both his ability to do choreography throughout his programs and his willingness to do so. That's very unusual in male skaters of that age. It was clear he had a good coach and a great deal of ambition.
Now that the event and the emotions are over, I kind of wish the US Fed had let the US men fight out the 3rd spot (or maybe even the 2nd spot) at 4CCs.
Jason won silver at Nationals fair and square and by a large margin - I am just not sure if the Worlds judges will be equally as appreciative of his quality. I think if he skated at Worlds like he did at Nationals, he could potentially place in the lower half of top ten but not higher - I just don't know if he can even replicate that skate. His axels have been on and off all season and he has yet to land a clean quad for 2 seasons. His fall and GP season was solid but not THAT strong. I just wish he had one more solid outing at 4CCs to justify sending him to Worlds without a quad.
Same for Vincent and Tomoki. Vincent didn't do the GPs and Tomoki's GPs were again good but not great. Both obviously paced to peak at Nationals. There is merit to sending each of them to Worlds. They both have reliable quads and their PCS, while not great, is not a burden.
For me, the best scenario might be to send Jason, Vincent and Tomoki to 4CCs to battle out 2 spots and let Nathan rest.
Jason won silver at Nationals fair and square and by a large margin - I am just not sure if the Worlds judges will be equally as appreciative of his quality. I think if he skated at Worlds like he did at Nationals, he could potentially place in the lower half of top ten but not higher - I just don't know if he can even replicate that skate. His axels have been on and off all season and he has yet to land a clean quad for 2 seasons. His fall and GP season was solid but not THAT strong. I just wish he had one more solid outing at 4CCs to justify sending him to Worlds without a quad.
Same for Vincent and Tomoki. Vincent didn't do the GPs and Tomoki's GPs were again good but not great. Both obviously paced to peak at Nationals. There is merit to sending each of them to Worlds. They both have reliable quads and their PCS, while not great, is not a burden.
For me, the best scenario might be to send Jason, Vincent and Tomoki to 4CCs to battle out 2 spots and let Nathan rest.
VGThuy
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I really do think Vincent needs to train train and train. If he wasn’t as close as he was at Nationals, I’d be for leaving him home but the fact that he managed to do what he did is quite amazing. Give him like another six weeks or so of training.
Yes, it wasn't going to help Vincent to go to 4CCs. He needs time to train. And as for Jason, Tomoki, and Camden--well, results could be different at 4CCs but they could just as easily flip around at Worlds. Jason & Tomoki really gave their best at Nationals. We saw it. So I'm pretty happy. They and Vincent delivered when they knew what was on the line, and they & Nathan were the ones with the best resumes heading into the event anyway. We were really just blessed to have so many solid skating performances so that the committee could make a good decision. (I don't think there was a bad decision to be made there. There were two potential good decisions).
Fingers crossed that we will also see many solid skating performances for the men's event at 4CCs.
Fingers crossed that we will also see many solid skating performances for the men's event at 4CCs.
Yes since it was already DECIDED that Vincent would go to Worlds, then of course he should stay home and train, skipping 4CCs.
What I am saying is I am not sure Vincent should have been sent to Worlds over Tomoki so quickly. Neither had a stellar season up to Nationals and both won major hardware last season, so if this Nationals isn't a decisive win enough for Tomoki, they should be allowed to duke it out internationally and see if they can get the same type of rotational calls and PCS internationally.
What I am saying is I am not sure Vincent should have been sent to Worlds over Tomoki so quickly. Neither had a stellar season up to Nationals and both won major hardware last season, so if this Nationals isn't a decisive win enough for Tomoki, they should be allowed to duke it out internationally and see if they can get the same type of rotational calls and PCS internationally.
They didn't select Vincent because they believe he is better than Tomoki now.
They are hoping Vincent will benefit from experience, be solid at Worlds, and possibly have a higher base value by March. On top of which, they are just respecting what it takes to win a World bronze medal. It takes a _____ing lot. We spent almost a decade trying to get there, right?
aftershocks
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Maybe Tomoki is seen as having more Worlds opportunities going forward, and U.S. fed want to keep Vincent inspired and in-the-game. Plus, Vincent is defending World bronze medalist, which is more than just a notion.
Tomoki will have a fine opportunity to continue excelling at 4CCs and to end his season on a high note, then look toward next season by coming up with better music and program concepts, more suited to his skating personality.
We posted our similar thoughts at the same time @Dobre
Jayar
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You do remember the SP results from last year's World Championships, yes?
1 | Nathan Chen | United States | 107.40 |
2 | Jason Brown | United States | 96.81 |
3 | Yuzuru Hanyu | Japan | 94.87 |
4 | Vincent Zhou | United States | 94.17 |
5 | Matteo Rizzo | Italy | 93.37 |
6 | Shoma Uno | Japan | 91.40 |
misskarne
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I'm sorry what idiocy did I just read?!
Your alternative options are skaters who have nowhere near the body of work on the GP (Tomoki and everyone who finished 5th onwards) or as Senior skaters and Vincent. Vincent's also on the team. Are you seriously saying that Tomoki should have got the Worlds spot because quad? Are you seriously saying that Jason doesn't have the BOW to justify a Worlds selection outright?
Who exactly do you think should be going in Jason's place, then? Newsflash - nobody else. Jason earned this fair and square, he's proven his worth time and again on the world stage, and he still has to endure frankly moronic comments like this because he doesn't have the frapping quad yet.
VGThuy
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I think Jason has more than proven his worth given his scoring potential. Even without a quad he scores extremely high thanks to GOE and PCS and is getting even better with every season.
Sure. Tomoki is also the reigning Jr World Champ. When Vincent was the reigning Jr World Champ and broke through at Nationals as a fresh senior, he was also picked for Olympics and Worlds in 2018 over someone who beat him at Nationals (Ross).
Granted Ross in 2018 was not as accomplished as Vincent in 2020, I am just surprised that Tomoki doesn't even get a skate-off.I am not saying Tomoki is definitely a better or worse choice than Vincent, I am saying it's too quick to judge. They are obviously banking on Vincent further improving and hopefully regaining his other quads by Worlds, but what if he doesn't? They are doing the opposite of what they did in 2011 which was to go straight by Nationals result no matter what and it backfired. I wonder if going by mostly last season's body of work, as is with Vincent, is a better test. Just this season alone, I don't see a trajectory for Vincent (yet).
Sure. Tomoki is also the reigning Jr World Champ. When Vincent was the reigning Jr World Champ and broke through at Nationals as a fresh senior, he was also picked for Olympics and Worlds in 2018 over someone who beat him at Nationals (Ross).
When Vincent broke through at Nationals as a fresh senior winning silver, they picked Jason (the US only had 2 spots) and sent Vincent to Jr Worlds (and he won). He won bronze in 2018, and it was a 3 man team, so I don't think that's a good analogy.
VGThuy
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It’s not really surprising that Tomoki doesn’t get a skate off because the USFS has never done a skate off and unlike Japan or countries who have done skate offs at 4CCs or Euros, their nationals are like a month or so later, not two weeks later and in a totally different continent that requires long air travel. Also, when was the last time Japan did a skate-off? I feel like it had to have been a very long time.
I think Ross lost out to both Vincent and Adam on BOW and they also considered scoring potential. I think had Tomoki blew Vincent away they would have sent him instead but the base values were very similar and it could have gone either way. Given Vincent’s record and World bronze medal and knowing how he can score and what he accomplished with like 2-3 weeks of training before nationals, I think the USFS decided if they were gambling with both anyway, might as go with the one with the track record who managed to do quads after months being off the ice since he has weeks more to train and has been able to land 4-5 quads in a program before.
I think Ross lost out to both Vincent and Adam on BOW and they also considered scoring potential. I think had Tomoki blew Vincent away they would have sent him instead but the base values were very similar and it could have gone either way. Given Vincent’s record and World bronze medal and knowing how he can score and what he accomplished with like 2-3 weeks of training before nationals, I think the USFS decided if they were gambling with both anyway, might as go with the one with the track record who managed to do quads after months being off the ice since he has weeks more to train and has been able to land 4-5 quads in a program before.
Yes, but I also remember he was 14th in the free with the 4th lowest TES of the night. For the free skate, Vincent's PCS has caught up to nearly Jason's level. I hate that there is still some invisible tie between TES and PCS. #coughsamarincough#
I have loved and rooted for Jason for too long to NOT see him land a freakin' quad and medal. Alas this dream seems further and further away when other top skaters are trying more and harder quads.
Oops I thought 2017 turned out the way it did because Vincent had not skated internationally ever at that point and did not have the minimums? He did not even go to 4CCs as a nationals silver medalist so I figured that must be why. Apologies.
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misskarne
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Which was an exception, not the norm. Jason's TES at Nationals was 95 for the FS with the downgraded quad. Before they downgraded the quad his TES was 99.85. And that was with negative GOE on that jump. If he'd been around, it would have been over 100. It's not the first time Jason's been over 90 TES in the free and it won't be the last.
I actually think it entirely possible that Jason will a) land a clean quad in competition within the next 12 months (and have the tech panel actually ratify it this time coughSkateAmerica2016cough) and b) nudge 200 for the FS and 300 overall. With one quad. It can absolutely be done.
barbarafan
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Makes sense....steady daily training....and Mtl is 45mins by plane. If Canada has a simulation weekend as well for the neighbouring clubs in and around Toronto if the coaches have foreign students they are included.
Look, all USFS can do is make its best guess. There are no placement guarantees, quads or no quads. Remember how many people were predicting that Kevin Aymoz was going WIN Euros this season? Remember how everyone predicted Nathan to win Worlds in 2017?
Regarding Nats scoring, that applies to all of the guys, not just Jason. Regarding Tomoki versus Vincent, Tomoki’s international PB, achieved at 4CCs last year, is 236, more than 40 points lower than the 278 he scored at Nats this year. His scores on the GP this season - with quads- were even lower, at 207 and 227. Vincent’s SB is low - 231 at SLC as compared to his PB of 299 - but given what he showed at Nats with very limited training, I can certainly see why they chose to send him outright.
Regarding Nats scoring, that applies to all of the guys, not just Jason. Regarding Tomoki versus Vincent, Tomoki’s international PB, achieved at 4CCs last year, is 236, more than 40 points lower than the 278 he scored at Nats this year. His scores on the GP this season - with quads- were even lower, at 207 and 227. Vincent’s SB is low - 231 at SLC as compared to his PB of 299 - but given what he showed at Nats with very limited training, I can certainly see why they chose to send him outright.
This. Seriously, a new rollercoaster will have to be invented to depict how up & down the men's results have been this season. I mean, good luck to anyone trying to predict results in the men's event.
I think Shoma will be OK
. Now is it fair that I am predicting this based on one high-quality competition? I don't know. Obviously, I'm just making an educated guess based on the Shoma I have seen over the last several years and the fact that he now has a new coach, his performance at Nationals was solid, and he has some time. Same as Vincent.Meanwhile, Yuma has had at least 4 great competitions this season, but still . . . Worlds is Worlds. It's very high pressure. I think the Japanese fed made a good call choosing to send Yuma to 4CCs and Junior Worlds. Give him that experience. I certainly don't know if Tanaka will do better. Nor does the Japanese Fed. They just made the most educated selection they could.
On the flip side of the Japanese Fed, we have Russia sending Danielian. It's the opposite side of the coin. He's only really had that quad for less than half a season. (I think he's got it. I don't know if he'll land it in the SP under Worlds pressure, but in general, he's done several clean ones in his last two competitions. Seems like he's got it). He didn't make the JGPF. His SB--while winning a medal at Euros--is only the 17th highest this season, and meanwhile Russia will be leaving home the guy with the 6th highest SB score in the World. But--you know--Samarin has really had a lot of rough SPs over the past couple years. Didn't get the job done two times in a row recently. Only finished 12th himself at Worlds last year. And 6 guys above Danielian on the SB list won't be at Worlds. Despite missing the JGPF, Artur has been really steady in his results. They're hoping for steady. His difficulty isn't any more than Tomoki's. But they don't have a World bronze medalist to send. Their guy didn't make it back for Nationals.
And then we have Canada. Canada has two guys with quite a bit of experience who didn't get the job done for two spots last season and have both finished top ten in the past. Both of whom had some good competitive skates this season, but did not skate well in the FS at Nationals. And Canada has a young guy who has been around and has just started to have some senior success this season. Who very fairly won Nationals. But they want to see if he can do it again. Or at least can he show that he is as competitive as the the other two guys are in a major international? Or will one of them really step it up? So we'll find out this weekend.
If any of these countries had a guaranteed formula for predicting who to send to win berths in the men's event at Worlds, everyone would be using it. They're all just doing the best they can.
Note: Tomoki has two more quadruple jumps in his jump format this season than last so if he skates well, his ISU SB will go up from last year's 4CCs. That score was for a very clean FS and a pretty good SP. I think he has a good chance of showing improvement from last season. It's a long journey to Korea, but he does have that experience from 4CCs. Just in general--after watching him compete the last 4 seasons--I think he is often better after having experienced something before. True for many athletes.
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jlai
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Actually Tomoki medaled at jr worlds the first year he competed there. I get why they picked Zhou but I thought it was also a shame Tomoki didn’t get picked.
misskarne
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I just thought I'd bless this thread with this clip
I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw this remark, but it was that Jason is now so fast, and has so much ice coverage, that he comes very close to the boards. I agree. It's at the point where his board-proximity sometimes reminds me of Max, and few got as close to the boards as he did.
I think Jason is improving every year. I also think, in international terms, he is very underrated. 4CC will be the perfect opportunity to remind the world stage of his quality. For me, even trying to take off my uberfan glasses, he is one of the very best pure skaters in the world.
I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw this remark, but it was that Jason is now so fast, and has so much ice coverage, that he comes very close to the boards. I agree. It's at the point where his board-proximity sometimes reminds me of Max, and few got as close to the boards as he did.
I think Jason is improving every year. I also think, in international terms, he is very underrated. 4CC will be the perfect opportunity to remind the world stage of his quality. For me, even trying to take off my uberfan glasses, he is one of the very best pure skaters in the world.
