U.S. Men 2019-20 season - news & updates

[Frau Muller]

I’m more ok with Zhou getting named over Hiwatashi for Worlds, than I am about C-G/L being named in Pairs.

 

[olympic]

I’m more ok with Zhou getting named over Hiwatashi for Worlds, than I am about C-G/L being named in Pairs.

Honestly, I would have placed Zhou ahead of Hiwatashi by a few points (exact reversal of 3rd and 4th as it played out)

 

[Dobre]

Just a personal guess but I think the USFSA probably thinks they are safe with Nathan and Jason in getting three spots and the third guy doesn't really matter as much.

I think the opposite. I think they are not sure Jason has the points, and they want someone with the experience who can go out solid if he doesn't. Vincent, at this point in time, is probably the safer call than the guys just moving up.

If I was the USFS, I’d be encouraging Tomoki to train hard for 4CC, build up his rep and train even after 4CC

Of course. Injuries are way too common in this discipline.

Do you send the guy who's never to been to Worlds? Or do you go with safer bets because they minimize risk? I can totally see USFS thinking that way next year.

I think Tomoki is doing what he needs to do to make the argument. He has been in the pipeline a long time. If he delivers on the GP and defeats Jason at Nationals, I believe they'll send him. He has only the quad toe so not the points that Vincent & Nathan could bring in when they broke through, but he has a stronger resume in competition than Camden, Kraznozhon, or Torgashev. They know what they've got. (Somebody is getting these guys to Christy Krall).

 

[sk9tingfan]

SkatingScores' analysis of the US Men's score to date:

SkatingScores on Twitter

“Some 🇺🇸Mens stats from the Fall 2019 SR Int'l season (Grand Prix+Challenger Series). » 🇺🇸Zhou did just one CS event. Compared to 🇺🇸Hiwatashi, he has higher Mean Event & SP Totals. » But if u include 🇺🇸Zhou's Japan Open FS (167.64), he also has the higher Mean FS Total: 155.28.”

twitter.com

 

[feraina]

Watching the NBC Sport replay, Jason 4T was landed on one foot, though facing forward then finishing the rotation on ice. That's better than it has been for all his quad attempts, except for that one 4T he did at SA that controversially got called UR'ed, right? In any case, this gives me hope that he's got the mechanics down, and if he could just get a little more height or faster rotation that he could actually land it clean. I remember all his attempts in the last couple of years were not only severely under-rotated but 2-footed, and that just didn't seem like it was setting him up to get it clean any time soon.

 

[dinakt]

Additionally, if I remember correctly, he used to stalk his 4T relentlessly (though I might be wrong). This one looked incorporated into the program and gave me a feeling that with enough competition repetition it'll be there (and the one I saw in practice stream was a beauty)

 

[AYS]

I think the opposite. I think they are not sure Jason has the points, and they want someone with the experience who can go out solid if he doesn't. Vincent, at this point in time, is probably the safer call than the guys just moving up.

I imagine the thinking is that Nathan is a shoe-in for a high finish and at least one of the others will get the job done.

Watching the NBC Sport replay, Jason 4T was landed on one foot, though facing forward then finishing the rotation on ice. That's better than it has been for all his quad attempts, except for that one 4T he did at SA that controversially got called UR'ed, right? In any case, this gives me hope that he's got the mechanics down, and if he could just get a little more height or faster rotation that he could actually land it clean. I remember all his attempts in the last couple of years were not only severely under-rotated but 2-footed, and that just didn't seem like it was setting him up to get it clean any time soon.

I'm hardly one to second-guess expert coaches, but I haven't understood the focus on the quad sal since he went to Orser, since he'd come close on that quad toe and at least seems more inclined to go for it rather than pop compared to the sal. I'm glad they switched back to the toe for now, although obviously to contend for the worlds podium, he needs both.

 

[wickedwitch]

My prediction regarding Jason's quad really hasn't changed over the past four years: someday (maybe even at Worlds!) he'll land one in competition, but unfortunately, it will never be super consistent. But if his timing is lucky/right, he still may be able to get a World or Oly medal out of it.

 

[feraina]

I rewatched Jason's 2016 Skate America FS, which is where he landed that 4T right on the border of 1/4 short. Compared to back then, he now snaps into rotation earlier and sharper, maintains a tighter position, and has more speed into and out of jumps. Under Kori, his jumps looked kinda smooth and effortless, but also kind of "lazy." In the slightly under-rotated 4T, you can see his arms and feet don't get into their tightest position until 2+ rotations in, whereas now, he snaps into a tight position almost immediately. I think Jason actually had slightly higher jumps back then than he does now; he really relied on height to get his jumps around. But I remember right after that exciting Skate America 4T, he started having a stress fracture, from excessive training to jump higher. Plus, if he was a little tired or jetlagged or nervous, he couldn't get enough height and would start under-rotating his jumps. That strategy was untenable -- he clearly hit his limit with that kind of technique. But he didn't know what the limit was until that 2016-2017 season, when he both got achingly close to a quad and was injured from training it. If he left Kori after that season, he probably still wouldn't have made the Olympic team in 2018, since it takes more than one season to learn the new technique.

Anyway, it struck me that he skates so much faster now, even in a lyrical program like Schindler's list, than he used to. The beauty of having more speed going into jumps is not only that it looks more impressive, but that linear speeds gets translated into rotational speed, so he can get the jumps around without needing all that height. I notice that he's using his upper body a lot more than he used to, for snapping into rotation. He looks much more toned in his upper body. I remember being mad before that he wasn't showered with 9's, but now that he skates so much better, I'm glad there's room in PCS scoring to reward him more. It's impressive that he has altered/improved so many aspects of his skating at 25. It gives me hope that he can still scale new heights athletically!

 

[aftershocks]

Watching the NBC Sport replay, Jason 4T was landed on one foot, though facing forward then finishing the rotation on ice. That's better than it has been for all his quad attempts, except for that one 4T he did at SA that controversially got called UR'ed, right? In any case, this gives me hope that he's got the mechanics down, and if he could just get a little more height or faster rotation that he could actually land it clean. I remember all his attempts in the last couple of years were not only severely under-rotated but 2-footed, and that just didn't seem like it was setting him up to get it clean any time soon.

Jason has landed successful quads in practice and in warm-ups apparently. It's about shedding nerves and being able to ace timing to get the quad in completely clean during competition. I still believe Jason landed a quad in the fp at SA 2016, which he was robbed of by judges because they weren't used to seeing him land a quad that easily, and there was some lame excuse given about camera angles. If camera angles weren't right, the outcome should have been positive for the skater. Don't call a landing that looked good and was so close a UR downgrade.

 

[misskarne]

That's better than it has been for all his quad attempts, except for that one 4T he did at SA that controversially got called UR'ed, right?

Yes. The clean (no I don't give two flips what that protocol says) 4T at SA was the last time he even stood up, I think. But the problem was really after that that he got injured - I think it was the year of his back - and I think that just messed everything up. I'd be interested to see what would have happened had he not got injured.

My prediction regarding Jason's quad really hasn't changed over the past four years: someday (maybe even at Worlds!) he'll land one in competition, but unfortunately, it will never be super consistent. But if his timing is lucky/right, he still may be able to get a World or Oly medal out of it.

I mean, people used to say that about his 3A, too.

I actually don't think Jason really needs more than one type of quad. His GOE will just do it for him. Before the << call on the 4T yesterday, his TES was 99. Now throw in a 4T-3T and his TES would easily break over 100. Add the incredible PCS he deserves and bada-bing bada bip, that's World medallist material.

But given the absolute textbook beauty of his flip...I'd really like to see him try 4F and I think Orser said he actually had been training it prior to concussion?

 

[barbarafan]

I imagine the thinking is that Nathan is a shoe-in for a high finish and at least one of the others will get the job done.

I'm hardly one to second-guess expert coaches, but I haven't understood the focus on the quad sal since he went to Orser, since he'd come close on that quad toe and at least seems more inclined to go for it rather than pop compared to the sal. I'm glad they switched back to the toe for now, although obviously to contend for the worlds podium, he needs both.

There have been experiences of injury in the quad toe...not just from bad landings but even done right...usage type injuries whereas skaters seem to pick up the sal easier with less consequences . Brian is always careful of potential injury.

 

[Tavi]

Yes. The clean (no I don't give two flips what that protocol says) 4T at SA was the last time he even stood up, I think. But the problem was really after that that he got injured - I think it was the year of his back - and I think that just messed everything up. I'd be interested to see what would have happened had he not got injured.



I mean, people used to say that about his 3A, too.

I actually don't think Jason really needs more than one type of quad. His GOE will just do it for him. Before the << call on the 4T yesterday, his TES was 99. Now throw in a 4T-3T and his TES would easily break over 100. Add the incredible PCS he deserves and bada-bing bada bip, that's World medallist material.

But given the absolute textbook beauty of his flip...I'd really like to see him try 4F and I think Orser said he actually had been training it prior to concussion?

Jason himself said in an interview (before Skate America, I think?) that before the concussion he was training 4T, 4S and 4F, but they put 4F on back burner.

 

[AYS]

Jason himself said in an interview (before Skate America, I think?) that before the concussion he was training 4T, 4S and 4F, but they put 4F on back burner.

The concussion was at the time of Champ's camp, so end of August.

 

[wickedwitch]

I mean, people used to say that about his 3A, too.

So I very much hope Jason proves me wrong, but he was training the 3A for three years before it became consistent, while it's been 7 for the quad. And he wouldn't be the first man to have a consistent 3A but not a quad.

 

[PRlady]

Jason's technique is generally very, very good and now he has a coach who pays attention to mechanics. (Jason doesn't need ANY advice on artistry at age 25, other than Aymoz he's the one guy people watch for the second mark.) My heartfelt dream is for him to land 1-2 quads in Beijing, just enough to keep his TES up there with the quadsters, and let his artistry do the rest.

 

[jlai]

I want everyone to skate lights out but for the sake of Alexei, Tomoki, Andrew and Camden I hope they get a chance to go to world too, though it doesn’t mean I want Jason or Zhou to do badly. Le sigh. This would have been the year for them for Zhou did open the door a crack

 

[vesperholly]

Jason himself said in an interview (before Skate America, I think?) that before the concussion he was training 4T, 4S and 4F, but they put 4F on back burner.

His 3flip was so huge at Nationals, I can see where he could do a quad.

 

[Alexa]

They have an ice rink at the college. And they couldn't dish out a few hours a week of ice time for a World medallist? I am a bit shocked. I know how hard ice-time is being fought for at rinks but this is ridiculous.

They are not obligated. Neither Nathan nor Karen relies on the rinks on campus. Karen goes to an off campus rink about 20 minutes away from school. With Nathan, the hours from what i read is “ 1 hour”, “ 1.5 hours”, or “45 minutes“ respectively, and he wouldn’t know it until the morning of the practice. In an interview with Japanese magazine after GPF, he mentioned that he would got message like there will be 45 minutes available today, would you come. He practices in a couple of rinks in CT, often time with kids, who he praised some are really good

He tried several rinks near New Haven when he went to Bulldogs days, April of 2018 before he committed to the school.

Also, if you read the NYT article from last year, there are pictures of him skating in an off campus rink, and picture of him filling up the holes he made on the ice in Ingall’s rink

Here is the link to the NYT article, scroll down to find the picture he was repairing the damages he created during his jumps

Nathan Chen’s Yale Juggling Act (Published 2019)

Some undergraduates head to Daytona for spring break. Nathan Chen, a Yale freshman, is heading to the World Figure Skating Championships.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Tavi]

His 3flip was so huge at Nationals, I can see where he could do a quad.

It was! I am hoping he goes back to the 4F, but not until he’s fully confident in the technique of his other jumps. Not sure if you had the chance to read the Phil Hersh interview linked above? He was apparently still having concussion symptoms in December. He also said that the inconsistency that re-emerged seemingly inexplicably this season was because about halfway through last season they stopped pushing change and this season they are forcing him not to fall back into old habits. It does look to me that at Nats he had a better handle on the new technique. Hoping that bodes well for the future and looking forward to seeing what he does at 4 Continents!

Yikes, sorry for the novel!

 

[dinakt]

The concussion was at the time of Champ's camp, so end of August.

On NBC Sports Gold Tanith was mentioning that Jason felt after-effects of the concussion/whiplash as late as December.

 

[aftershocks]

But the problem was really after that that he got injured

IMO, part of the problem (before his injury) was Jason losing confidence after not receiving credit for a quad he clearly landed clean and with ease. If the judges say, 'Nope you didn't land it,' that's a huge re-set when he had been so confident and had surely felt it in his bones. IOW, it could have been the boost of confidence and turn-around Jason needed to continue going for the feeling he had landing it. When told he didn't land it, he seemingly became completely thrown off again about absorbing a feel for the revolutions, and having his confidence stoked going into the jump.

I met and spoke to Jason in between the sp and fp at that event, and I said to him, "I know you're going to land the quad. Keep believing in yourself." Effusive and lovely Jason responded, "Yeah, I'm going to land it!" And we high-fived. So it was quite wonderful to witness when Jason threw down that gorgeous quad in the fp and skated so great, weaving a story. Some viewers were brought to tears. But the judges did their clueless microscope nitpicking and then blamed not having enough camera angles for their decision. BS.

AdaRipp had wonderful performances at that event too.

 

[skateboy]

IMO, part of the problem (before his injury) was Jason losing confidence after not receiving credit for a quad he clearly landed clean and with ease. If the judges say, 'Nope you didn't land it,' that's a huge re-set when he had been so confident and had surely felt it in his bones.

You know, I thought for sure Jason had landed that quad cleanly, too. But going back and watching it now, I clearly see the underrotation, especially after looking at all of Vincent's quads that were (usually correctly) called UR. And it couldn't have been easy for Vincent either, as some of the quads that were called UR were definitely close calls.

Vincent worked to clean up many of his landings and I think Jason will be able to get a clean quad, too. His head seems to be in a really good place.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

They are not obligated. Neither Nathan nor Karen relies on the rinks on campus. Karen goes to an off campus rink about 20 minutes away from school. With Nathan, the hours from what i read is “ 1 hour”, “ 1.5 hours”, or “45 minutes“ respectivel, and he wouldn’t know it until the morning of the practice. In an interview with Japanese magazine after GPF, he mentioned that he would got message like there will be 45 minutes available, would you come. He practices in a couple of rinks in CT, often time with kids, who he praised some are really good

He tried several rinks near New Haven when he went to Bulldogs days, April of 2018 before he committed to the school.

Also, if you read the NYT article from last year, there are pictures of him skating in an off campus rink, and picture of him filling up the holes he made on the ice in Ingall’s rink

Here is the link to the NYT article, scroll down to find the picture he was repairing the damages he created during his jumps

Nathan Chen’s Yale Juggling Act (Published 2019)

Some undergraduates head to Daytona for spring break. Nathan Chen, a Yale freshman, is heading to the World Figure Skating Championships.

www.nytimes.com

What a marvelous article on Nathan! I love the details of his daily routine, including both his class and skating schedules - even what he had for lunch lol! Such a mature, well-balanced young man!

 

[misskarne]

You know, I thought for sure Jason had landed that quad cleanly, too. But going back and watching it now, I clearly see the underrotation, especially after looking at all of Vincent's quads that were (usually correctly) called UR. And it couldn't have been easy for Vincent either, as some of the quads that were called UR were definitely close calls.

Vincent worked to clean up many of his landings and I think Jason will be able to get a clean quad, too. His head seems to be in a really good place.

Jason's should have been called clean, because two skaters earlier, Adam Rippon's worse-than-Jason's was called clean. That they called Adam's clean and Jason's UR was a disgrace. If Jason's was UR then Adam's was UR; if Adam's was clean then Jason's was clean. Simple.

Tech panel consistency is important.

 

[aftershocks]

You know, I thought for sure Jason had landed that quad cleanly, too. But going back and watching it now, I clearly see the underrotation...

Good for you and fair enough. I don't see any clear under-rotation. Even on the slo-mo replay, it looked clean. There was no skate blade turning on the ice that I could see. Plus, excuses were made about the judges not having good camera angles, so go figure. At that time, a different rule was in place as well about 1/4 landing measure, which was later modified. It looked clean, and was certainly too close to call, especially in comparison to Jason's quad attempt in the sp which he fell on, but was called around and was not downgraded.

Ross Miner's great free skate at 2018 U.S. Nationals is full of wonderful memories. He was given full credit for his quad, and it definitely looked bang on, even on the replay. But when shown at a different camera angle, it seemed slightly URed, but definitely not worth calling against the skater w/o a clear camera angle, particularly when he was smokin' a great performance. The sport apparently has no desire nor compunction to solve the absence of accurate camera angles problem and mistaken calls, so they will continue to make all kinds of errors on UR calls for clean landings, and lack of UR calls for actual URs.

 

[Alexa]

What a marvelous article on Nathan! I love the details of his daily routine, including both his class and skating schedules - even what he had for lunch lol! Such a mature, well-balanced young man! ❤

It is a great article. I just hope he didn’t creat that many holes to be repaired each day . All those experiences including skating in free sessions with other very young skaters just makes him more appreciative and humble young man

World Junior Championship Team is out, hopefully Illia would be fully recovered by then

Ilia Malinin
Maxim Naumov
Andrew Torgashev
Alternate 1 – Dinh Tran
Alternate 2 – Eric Sjoberg
Alternate 3 – Lucas Altieri
Alternate 4 – Liam Kapeikis

FigureSkatersOnline on Twitter

“U.S Figure Skating announces World Junior Championship Team: Men Ilia Malinin Maxim Naumov Andrew Torgashev Alternate 1 – Dinh Tran Alternate 2 – Eric Sjoberg Alternate 3 – Lucas Altieri Alternate 4 – Liam Kapeikis”

twitter.com

 

[toddlj]

World Junior Championship Team is out, hopefully Illia would be fully recovered by then

Ilia Malinin
Maxim Naumov
Andrew Torgashev
Alternate 1 – Dinh Tran
Alternate 2 – Eric Sjoberg
Alternate 3 – Lucas Altieri
Alternate 4 – Liam Kapeikis

FigureSkatersOnline on Twitter

“U.S Figure Skating announces World Junior Championship Team: Men Ilia Malinin Maxim Naumov Andrew Torgashev Alternate 1 – Dinh Tran Alternate 2 – Eric Sjoberg Alternate 3 – Lucas Altieri Alternate 4 – Liam Kapeikis”

twitter.com

Ilia is crazy talented so fingers crossed he'll stay on the roster. (If not, Tran was great at Nats.)

 

[vesperholly]

Good for you and fair enough. I don't see any clear under-rotation. Even on the slo-mo replay, it looked clean. There was no skate blade turning on the ice that I could see. Plus, excuses were made about the judges not having good camera angles, so go figure. At that time, a different rule was in place as well about 1/4 landing measure, which was later modified. It looked clean, and was certainly too close to call, especially in comparison to Jason's quad attempt in the sp which he fell on, but was called around and was not downgraded.

Are you talking about his quad at TEB or Nationals?

I watched Misha Ge do a whistle-clean quad toe at Skate Canada FS (I was like 5 rows up directly in front of where he did it) and it was called <. I even took a picture of the landing edge because I was excited that he did a clean quad and the mark was really clear

 

[olympic]

Weird that Torgashev is relegated back to Juniors and Camden gets 4CCs