From Russia with Love [#34]: Autumn 2019

[RoseRed]

I really don't get the problem with the time deduction. When I timed it, I had her ~1-2 seconds over. And it's not a hard thing for her to fix.

 

[Tinami Amori]

To add to what @Tinami Amori posted as I was replying- it's easy to time Zagitova's program. She was over by at least one second, probably closer to two so there's no argument there.

First of all, Lakernik did not dispute, he asked for explanation.

Re Zagitov's music/ending - (not about jumps).

it's a very gray area, at best it is just few fractions of a second over, but not a full second. One has to really want to ding someone, to claim this as violation.

On this video, she starts moving on 0:49 and lowers her hand with the last note @ 3:39.

YouTube

www.youtube.com

and on this one, starts her movement on @ 0:41 into 42 and lowers her hand with the final note on 3:41 into 42

Alina ZAGITOVA SP 1/11/2019 Internationaux de France

Alina Zagitova’s sp at the Internationaux de France 2019 Day:1/11/2019 Link for IDF playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdxHzR2SfZ90N-WgLDQ0-4KW...

www.youtube.com

But..... this is what's strange. Look at Starr Andrews SP timing.
It starts @ 0:23 into 0:24 which means it should end at 3:13/14, but her music ends at 3:17 and she stops moving after the music ends at 3:19/20.

Starr ANDREWS SP 1/11/2019 Internationaux de France 2019

Starr Andrews’ sp at the Internationaux de France 2019 Day:1/11/2019 Link for IDF playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdxHzR2SfZ90N-WgLDQ0-4KWmE...

www.youtube.com

Her SP at Finlandia starts @ 0:20 and ends at 3:16.....

Starr ANDREWS (USA), SP - Finlandia Trophy Espoo 2019

Starr ANDREWS (USA), SP - Finlandia Trophy Espoo 2019

www.youtube.com

Starr is 6 seconds over 2.50 minutes limit.

There can also an argument that can be made that Sakomoto starts @ 0:21 and ends 3:12 even 3:13 (when the second changes from 12 to 13).

IDF19 Ladies' SP - Kaori Sakamoto 坂本花織 (no roots)

11/1/2019 ladies' short program fancamGrand Prix of figure skating, Internationaux de France (Grenoble)

www.youtube.com

To pin a violation on Zagitova's potential less than 1 second, is really wanting to get her....

If they're protesting Kostornaia's 3A in the short program, I thought it was rotated enough in replay to get full credit, although opinions certainly varied here.

Yes, that's one of the questions about Kostornya. but we have not got to it yet to discuss.
Her 3A is rotated, and for another alt. camera angle it is obvious.

 

[tony]

@Tinami Amori - you’ve been a fan long enough to know the counter starts when the skater first moves. Stojko used to stand on the ice for 30+ seconds before he would move.

 

[tony]

First of all, Lakernik did not dispute, he asked for explanation.

Re Zagitov's music/ending - (not about jumps).

it's a very gray area, at best it is just few fractions of a second over, but not a full second. One has to really want to ding someone, to claim this as violation.

On this video, she starts moving on 0:49 and lowers her hand with the last note @ 3:39.

YouTube

www.youtube.com

On exact video, I can provide you with a screen shot where her hand/arm is already moving up at 0:48. The problem is, that last note of the music is after 3:38. I don't get why it's there, and I don't get the additional choreography to drop the arm down on that beat. It's over time, whether half a second or three seconds.

 

[Tinami Amori]

@Tinami Amori - you’ve been a fan long enough to know the counter starts when the skater first moves. Stojko used to stand on the ice for 30+ seconds before he would move.

First of all, the rules say "programme lasts 2 m. 40 sec.".
Zagitova's video: her first move is at 0:49 and ends at 3:39

YouTube

www.youtube.com

Andrews' video: she starts moving at 0:29 and stops at 3:20

YouTube

www.youtube.com

and at Finlandia. She starts moving at 0:25 into 26 and ends at 3:17....

Starr ANDREWS (USA), SP - Finlandia Trophy Espoo 2019

Starr ANDREWS (USA), SP - Finlandia Trophy Espoo 2019

www.youtube.com

 

[Tinami Amori]

On exact video, I can provide you with a screen shot where her hand/arm is already moving up at 0:48. The problem is, that last note of the music is after 3:38. I don't get why it's there, and I don't get the additional choreography to drop the arm down on that beat. It's over time, whether half a second or three seconds.

We can argue fractions of a second, maybe a fraction..... But then same rule should be applied to ALL.. and it is not.
Andrews' timing is in the same situation.... but no one paid attention to it.

 

[tony]

We can argue fractions of a second, maybe a fraction..... But then same rule should be applied to ALL.. and it is not.
Andrews' timing is in the same situation.... but no one paid attention to it.

I agree Andrews looks borderline and I probably would've called her for it, but if they are timing it and it ends at 2:50 on the display, then she's fine. The problem once again with Zagitova is that the final note in her program comes at 2:51 after she starts moving, no matter how you want to look at it and regardless of which video you want to send me. She needs to remove that final note of the music and the get rid of the hand movement down and she won't be risking deduction. There's no doubt in my mind the timer displayed 2:51 for her.

And since you always have a million links to everything, add this:

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-regulations-rules/file

Rule 502 Duration of skating The time must be reckoned from the moment the Skater (either Skater for Pair Skating and Ice Dance) begins to move or to skate until arriving at a complete stop at the end of the program.

 

[Sylvia]

ISU Rule 502 also states:

The Skater/Pair/Couple is allowed to finish the Short Program, Rhythm Dance, Free Skating or Free Dance within ten (10) seconds plus or minus the required time. If the Skater/Pair/Couple fails to finish his/their Short Program, Rhythm Dance, Free Skating or Free Dance program within the allowed range of time, there should be a deduction (see Rule 353, paragraph 1.n) for up to every five (5) seconds lacking or in excess. Any element in Short Program, Rhythm Dance, Free Skating or Free Dance started after the required time (plus the ten (10) seconds allowed) must not be identified by the Technical Panel and will have no value. The timekeepers must inform the Referee. If the duration of the program is thirty (30) seconds or more under the required time range, no marks will be awarded.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Kostornaya's 3A in SP in Grenoble.... clean as a whistle, but with an "iffy" landing, for which she should get a -1 or -2.
But not a UR. That's an invention....

Kostornaia leads after terrific short program in Grenoble | NBC Sports

Alena Kostornaia's short program has her in first halfway through the Grand Prix event in Grenoble, France #NBCSports #AlenaKostornaia #FigureSkating » Subsc...

www.youtube.com

alternative video (watch in slow mo)

YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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On the video from ISU, which is a mix of her interview and clips of her skating, @ starting at 0:35 they repeat the shots of her 3A in SP. If watching in slow-mo and on large screen, it is clear there is no UR... but ISU put translations over the landing (that's interesting), but the translations are clear-letters, so one can still see the landing.

Alena Kostornaia (RUS) | Interview | Internationaux de France 2019 | #GPFigure

Visit https://www.isu.org/ for more information. SUBSCRIBE to our channel: https://www.youtube.com/SkatingISU?sub_confirmation=1 LIKE us on Facebook: https:/...

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Given that this jump combo 3A2T for Alysa Liu, is "gosh knows what kind of jump", possible UR, wonkie landing, and a novice-level step-forward off the toe-pick toe-valley at an almost stand-still, got full credit for the 3A-2T combo with from 0 to -3 deductions....

Alysa Liu (USA) | Ladies Free Skating | Gdansk 2019

16:16:30 - 16:23:40 1 Michaela VRASTAKOVA CZE 36 30.37 16:23:40 - 16:30:50 2 Sofia Isabel Victoria GUIDOTE PHI 35 31.72 16:30:50 - 16:38:00 3 Anna LITVINENKO...

www.youtube.com

... and Alina's combo gets -5 deduction, given it is not "as good as it usually is and bit heavy"?

Has anyone fully addressed (not just few mentions and then it died down) the clear and blunt ignoring of Bell's UR jump at the Worlds 2018? I know TW you did, and couple of others.... but there were no hysterics over it. It was passed over as a "matter of fact".

The tech-guy at the GP France was the same fellow from Holland who "out of the blue" without having ANY Ladies Singles in top 20, came out of wood works to suggest "raising the age limit" when Russian girls started to win every thing.....

Strange.... the very same guy is pulling out all stops to ding Russian girls for anything that can be pulled in by a hair or possibly invented.....

 

[Tinami Amori]

The problem once again with Zagitova is that the final note in her program comes at 2:51 after she starts moving, no matter how you want to look at it and regardless of which video you want to send me. She needs to remove that final note of the music and the get rid of the hand movement down and she won't be risking deduction.

Here is her Test Skate SP. First move starts @ 0:41 and ends on 3:31..... same CD i am sure that they use.
Her hand goes down and stops on the last note/sound that we hear. Yes, i watched in slow mo...

Алина Загитова. Короткая программа. Женщины. Предсезонные контрольные прокаты по фигурному катанию

Смотрите короткую программу в исполнении олимпийской чемпионки Алины Загитовой в рамках предсезонных контрольных прокатов сборной России!

www.youtube.com

 

[tony]

Kostornaya's 3A in SP in Grenoble.... clean as a whistle, but with an "iffy" landing, for which she should get a -1 or -2.
But not a UR. That's an invention....

Kostornaia leads after terrific short program in Grenoble | NBC Sports

Alena Kostornaia's short program has her in first halfway through the Grand Prix event in Grenoble, France #NBCSports #AlenaKostornaia #FigureSkating » Subsc...

www.youtube.com

I'm in agreement with you here. I would be curious to know which camera angle they were provided where this would be underrotated and the first one in the free skate was called clean when it was very much <. But remember, two of the three on this panel IIRC were the ones that gave Uno a clean 3A call in the short when it was <<.

Given that this jump combo 3A2T for Alysa Liu, is "gosh knows what kind of jump", possible UR, wonkie landing, and a novice-level step-forward off the toe-pick toe-valley at an almost stand-still, got full credit for the 3A-2T combo with from 0 to -3 deductions....

Alysa Liu (USA) | Ladies Free Skating | Gdansk 2019

16:16:30 - 16:23:40 1 Michaela VRASTAKOVA CZE 36 30.37 16:23:40 - 16:30:50 2 Sofia Isabel Victoria GUIDOTE PHI 35 31.72 16:30:50 - 16:38:00 3 Anna LITVINENKO...

www.youtube.com

... and Alina's combo gets -5 deduction, given it is not "as good as it usually is and bit heavy"?

Ugly jump for sure with no flow out, but did you read what I wrote above? The 'e' and '<' calls, whether you agree with them or not, are automatic reductions in GOE. What I still want to know is how the Russian judge arrived at a +1. Maybe you can offer some insight into that, Tinami?

Has anyone fully addressed (not just few mentions and then it died down) the clear and blunt ignoring of Bell's UR jump at the Worlds 2018? I know TW you did, and couple of others.... but there were no hysterics over it. It was passed over as a "matter of fact".

I've said this several times- I don't care where the skater is from. I've been on the cases of American skaters, Japanese skaters, Russian skaters, and probably a little of everyone in between when it comes to the technical panels and the judges. I was writing articles way before the 'e' and '!' thing turned into two options with a reduction in start value for the e where I said it was ridiculous a skater could technically do four of the same jump in a program and earn nearly full points for each one.

I think the panels do get it right most of the time, but there are cases when they are way too generous to everyone. And while the argument becomes 'well if it's fair for everyone'--- it's not. The skaters that actually rotate jumps on the correct edges are being put on level playing fields with skaters that don't have the best jumping days or flat-out don't have great jumping technique to begin with. I'd much rather see them being strict across the board and have a missed call here or there (not to the extent of Tennell's missed triple at Skate America or Uno's non-called << in France), than the opposite.

 

[barbarafan]

They already asked and are waiting for a ruling this summer. They want it in place before the Olympics. If a 3A is allowed there's no reason to not allow the quad

mmmmm...as long as they establish a min. calorie intake for ladies. I have never seen anyone as thin as Scherbakova with bones sticking out who wasn't a week or two shy of dying of cancer.

 

[PRlady]

of course they did not..... T/M won their first try out at Nebelhorn and then 2 GP events that followed. The team got to the prize money, and Feds got their cut.

Plus this programme appeared to be an element of "self-expression and vision". That's what happens when skaters without proper education and knowledge of the world trends, want to "express themselves" and are allowed to do so..

If all one does is "skate", no matter how old one is, his/her brains are "limited". They need supervision, but that's not politically correct. So you either have a brainy person like Nathan Chen, who combines high-level education with visions of programmes... and WINS. Or you have to have someone like Eteri and Team, to guide the "athletes" in the right direction, doing all the calculations for them, and then they WIN.

The "freedom of self-discovery and expression" on ice by athletes is overrated... Either someone has the intellect and knowledge to follow the right direction for oneself, or the others mostly younger ones, follow to the T what smarter coaches give them.

I want to express myself now, works only in the movies.....

Audrey Hepburn's Crazy Dance

Very Cute Audrey Hepburn Dance from movie "Funny Face". Choreography by Eugene Loring.

www.youtube.com

I must be declining in my old age but I actually agree with most of this.

Recently I posted something similar about singles skaters. I was an angsty teenager once and understand all those heartbreaking GFBs the girls are picking but yuck and yawn from an audience perspective. While Firebird and GoT and Twilight are actually great programs for girls that age.

When skaters get old or sophisticated enough to be Nathan or Jason or Satoko, THEN they can pick their music. They should have to pass a test like when you get your driver’s license.

 

[TAHbKA]

I can't recall a single programme from Tutberidze team that made me go `eeek, this little girl should not be skating to that music'.
Jotem, on the other hand....

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

We can argue fractions of a second, maybe a fraction..... But then same rule should be applied to ALL.. and it is not.
Andrews' timing is in the same situation.... but no one paid attention to it.

TA - like many I am amused by your battles in defense of favorites. And many times I get your point. This one through "should be applied to all" is tired. Any negative call - time, # spin rotations, landing foot angle, insufficient out of footwork - against any skater - young, nationality, coached by - can be countered with someone who "got away with it". Unless one can show a systematic penalizing of a skater through multiple competitions it's an empty argument.

Figure skating has been reluctant to open the door on contested/"clarified" calls. Maybe it should. But, expect nasty political battles as one group seeks retribution against another.

 

[Dobre]

I can't recall a single programme from Tutberidze team that made me go `eeek

I can. (Kill Bill would be right up there at the top for me, and I'm a Trusova fan).

 

[rfisher]

Well, the lack of UR calls on Miyahara at COR cost Tuk a silver medal and a trip to the GPF so IMHO, the Russian Fed and Mishin have a legitimate complaint. But, skating is what it is and I don't think the Russians are being singled out to punish. It's more that some skater's are being let slide while others are being rightly penalized for errors. What the Russian skaters have to do in this case is to out score the other skaters regardless. Then they win. I really feel for Liza because she was hit with extreme bad luck last season, but that's life. She can spend the time preparing for Nationals which, apart from prize money, is far more critical for the second half of the season than the GPF.

 

[RoseRed]

mmmmm...as long as they establish a min. calorie intake for ladies. I have never seen anyone as thin as Scherbakova with bones sticking out who wasn't a week or two shy of dying of cancer.

I have no idea if Anna is healthy or not. I have seen pictures of her mother, who is also very tiny.

I went back and looked at pictures of myself around that age. When I was fifteen, I didn't look that different than Anna. I ate plenty and just didn't gain any weight. It was natural.

So I don't think you should assume she's not healthy just because she's thin.

 

[PRlady]

I have no idea if Anna is healthy or not. I have seen pictures of her mother, who is also very tiny.

I went back and looked at pictures of myself around that age. When I was fifteen, I didn't look that different than Anna. I ate plenty and just didn't gain any weight. It was natural.

So I don't think you should assume she's not healthy just because she's thin.

It's hard to tell on TV but her skin, hair and eyes do not look like someone with a severe eating disorder, but yes she is painfully thin. It's indeed possible that's her natural state but since we have plenty of evidence of the focus on food and water in Eteri's system, it's also likely that is reinforcing her natural condition.

Zags, I think, would weigh several kilo more without a drastic skater's diet.

 

[rfisher]

Some of you really need to read the Oda thread. Just sayin....

 

[Vash01]

mmmmm...as long as they establish a min. calorie intake for ladies. I have never seen anyone as thin as Scherbakova with bones sticking out who wasn't a week or two shy of dying of cancer.

I find this a very irresponsible statement. shcherbakova looking like “one or two weeks shy of dying of cancer”? Do you have any idea that people have different kinds of bodies or that 15 year olds Can look very Thin? From the way Anna has skated, there is no threat to her life. I dont believe that any fed should interfere in the diets of skaters unless there is an obvious abuse by the coach.

Athletes don’t eat like average people. There have been cases in some groups like Pavlova’s (Antipova almost died from anorexia). It doesn’t mean there should be rules for the entire community for their calorie intake.

 

[Wyliefan]

Some of you really need to read the Oda thread. Just sayin....

What's the Oda thread got to do with timing violations, music selections, underrotations, or eating disorders?

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Not another eating disorder thread ...

 

[rfisher]

What's the Oda thread got to do with timing violations, music selections, underrotations, or eating disorders?

Just read the later posts and you'll see for yourself.

 

[wickedwitch]

mmmmm...as long as they establish a min. calorie intake for ladies. I have never seen anyone as thin as Scherbakova with bones sticking out who wasn't a week or two shy of dying of cancer.

As much as I dislike the 'Eteri and co can do no wrong' group, people who are attacking teenage girls like this are far worse. That's a young girl, who is doing her best to make it in an incredibly tough position. She deserves respect as a human being even if you don't like her skating.

And frankly, while I am worried about her health, as I am for any child doing quads, she isn't that thin.

 

[skatfan]

I can't recall a single programme from Tutberidze team that made me go `eeek, this little girl should not be skating to that music'.
Jotem, on the other hand....

Didn’t Trusova skate to Hey Big Spender in juniors?

 

[TAHbKA]

Um... I don't follow the juniors....

 

[skatingguy]

Well, the lack of UR calls on Miyahara at COR cost Tuk a silver medal and a trip to the GPF so IMHO, the Russian Fed and Mishin have a legitimate complaint.

Miyahara got five under-rotation calls at Cup of China, and even if Tuktamysheva fnished 2nd it wouldn't guarantee that she would go to the Grand Prix Final.

 

[Wyliefan]

Just read the later posts and you'll see for yourself.

I did, and I don't.

 

[barbarafan]

As much as I dislike the 'Eteri and co can do no wrong' group, people who are attacking teenage girls like this are far worse. That's a young girl, who is doing her best to make it in an incredibly tough position. She deserves respect as a human being even if you don't like her skating.

And frankly, while I am worried about her health, as I am for any child doing quads, she isn't that thin.

I did not attack a teenage girl. I happen to like her skating. There are a few of Eteri's girls whose skating I like. She deserves to not starve to death or have lifelong internal problems and perhaps not be able to reproduce later in life.
In the pictures I saw in the medal ceremony her head looked too big for her body.