The Dance Hall 7: Tripping the Light Fantastic 2019-2020

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H/D have had a number of odd comments over the past year that make them look somewhat arrogant and complacent, IMO. (Personally, I think they're trying to appear confident for the judges sake, but are going just a tad too far.) But I'm not aggressively hating on them on social media either. And I'm pretty much the only person in the world who likes their FD apparently.
 
wickedwitch said:
H/D have had a number of odd comments over the past year that make them look somewhat arrogant and complacent, IMO. (Personally, I think they're trying to appear confident for the judges sake, but are going just a tad too far.) But I'm not aggressively hating on them on social media either. And I'm pretty much the only person in the world who likes their FD apparently.
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Nope - I like their FD.
 
As far as Hubbell and Donohue's programs this year go, the rhythm dance is a big miss for me, but the music choice in the free dance works fine for them. The country-rock vibe plays to their strengths. The issue I have with the FD is easily fixable, just down to some of the choreographic choices -- in particular (and I'm far from the only person to be saying this), they need to completely revamp the element they use for Lady Gaga's big "AH-AH-AH-AH-AH" moment; that's the highlight of the whole song, I honestly think it probably added millions to the film's gross because it made the trailer so great, and right now H/D are just doing a kind of ugly and unremarkable lift during it.

Hawayek/Baker seemed to have found their momentum yesterday, but boy did today's result threaten to cut them off at the knees. Well, they've got time to try to make the free sell better before Cup of China, though not a ton of time.
 
You’re not the only one, @wickedwitch. I just rewatched the top 2 in today’s FD a couple times, just to see if I saw what everyone else is seeing with Hubbell/Donohue’s FD. And I can’t say that I do. LOL. I actually like this dance and find it passionate & powerful. And kind of cool, because it’s different. I really don’t remember anyone dancing to Southern rock recently (or maybe ever?). To me, it’s a logical extension of Madi/Zach’s brand, if you will. It’s fairly fast-tempo, too, which is challenging. I haven’t seen the movie or heard the rest of the soundtrack, and I’m not even a big fan of “Shallow,” but I like the way they put the program together. (And can I say it’s a bit ironic that the judges turn against H/D on this piece, which is a bit different, while rewarding the usually creative G/P for going with a lyrical, slow song with pastel costumes? Nothing against G/P—I do like their FD—I just find the judges’ preference interesting.)
 
I like H/D's FD. I don't love it, but I see the potential in it. I think the country/rock is very them and a cousin to the blues style that worked so well for them their first season together in 11-12 and in the Olympic season. I think the program needs some work. Ditch the voiceovers, rework some of the music cuts maybe, work on the choreography in places. I think by the end of the season, they could grow it into something really great.

I did get their logic about feeling frustrated by doing early challengers in the past--they always got SLC and I can understand not wanting to skate early season at altitude. That said, looking forward to next season, I do think they need to put one back on their schedule. I imagine they have enough clout now to ask to be assigned to something other than SLC. The upside of having the back-to-back gp events and having the gpf ticket stamped means that they have more time than anyone else to go back and work on their programs. They don't have to make the hasty changes and turn around and compete again in a few weeks. They just get to stay home and work. I know they said they didn't want to have to make program changes this year, but they're going to have to. I'm sure they get that now. Today was certainly not fatal for them.

I was prepared to hate the SD, but I actually don't mind the "My Heart Belongs to Daddy" part. It may have been upthread in this thread or somewhere else entirely, but someone pointed out it's really no worse than "Big Spender", which people use all of the time without comment. I think that program would benefit by getting her out of the drop-waist dress, but that one, they really just need to drill elements, IMO.
 
I think I'm turning into a cynic. I am Canadian, and despite this, after I watched G/P's FD, I immediately thought, as they are Canadian and this is Skate Canada and Worlds will be in Montreal, they will get automatic inflation and probably win this competition, making the audience gasp, giving them a feel-good, "the underdog wins" tv moment in the Kiss & Cry that will help attract more Canadian viewers for worlds in Montreal, and also give them a political push that may help Canada win a medal in Montreal on Canadian soil. And I kind of rolled my eyes when all that happened exactly as I had predicted.

As I said, I'm turning into a cynic. Maybe I've been watching figure skating for too long. I've just seen too many of these "surprise" good-for-tv results on home soil.

I don't know enough about the nuances of ice dance technique to know if the result was truly fair, and I'm sure many will argue that it was. But I feel like home country favouritism and crowd support were big contributors to G/P's win. Also, G/P were lucky that that H/D's FD is not connecting well with the judges and audience so far.

I personally don't think G/P are in the same league as H/D or some other top teams. And I don't really get the political push behind this team. I thought F-B/S might give G/P a run for their money at Nationals, but the powers-that-be have appear to have signaled who is being favoured. G/P also have the better chance among the two for a medal due to their longevity.

Finally, I think the judges have signaled to H/D they have to majorly tweak their FD or even scrap it in order to change the narrative of them being in the same league as G/P. It's not impossible, the Gadbois team is good at adapting quickly to help their teams.

Time for me to thaw out my heart.
 
I have a thought after watching the dance event at SC, and I want to share it before I forget. I am behind on all the dance threads after today. But I feel like Hawayek & Baker's programs this year . . . they are good. And I am glad that the judges at SC gave H&B the nod for the fun program because I've really been waiting to see this team go there in a competitive number for some while. But it would only take a few more humorous touches to grab the audience in a stronger way and hold them throughout both programs. However, I feel like no one in Montreal's specialty is doing good humorous choreography so maybe bring someone in? The Grease is not bad. And most of the Montreal programs have personal touches which I appreciate in them this season, but H&B's seem to be on the scant side with relation to the personality building.

Did Scott Hamilton do his own choreo for all those humorous programs? Because this is what H&B need, IMO. Just more entertaining moments (and not recycled Christopher Dean moves, please). I realize, of course, that you are mostly limited during the Finnstep; but H&B have the crowd right off the bat when Stayin' Alive starts, and then they don't have another grab the audience moment for maybe 2/3rds of the program until the stop before the last piece. Meanwhile they lose the crowd. They get it back as soon as the stop with the dancing starts, but there is no need to have to get it back. They could hold it all the way through the program if they just had more personality/humor in early. (Or a great lift, but you are pretty limited as far as how much of that you can do in an RD). They don't need a dance choreographer, in particular. They just need someone like Scott to come in and add the touches. (I honestly think Jean Luc might be able to do it himself. He seems to have that kind of humorous bent when it comes to some of the improv stuff I've seen from him).

The FD can use the same kind of thing. It strikes me as a spoof--that a spoof is what they are going for really. And there is one moment there where that is obvious, and the crowd responds. But H&B could use a lot more of this during the build up of the program. I really like how on the music they are throughout this program; but added choreographic moments with humor. I think that would take the program to the next level.
 
Speaking of Hawayek/Baker's programs, I noted yesterday that the RD concludes with a whole additional music cut in which there are absolutely no elements performed. I'm trying to think of any other dance program where I've seen that, and couldn't think of any.
 
Colonel Green said:
Speaking of Hawayek/Baker's programs, I noted yesterday that the RD concludes with a whole additional music cut in which there are absolutely no elements performed. I'm trying to think of any other dance program where I've seen that, and couldn't think of any.
Click to expand...
Actually, Smart/Diaz's RD this season does the exact same thing. I think both teams would be better off tweaking their music cuts for better impact.
 
love_skate2011 said:
Hubbell/Donohue are getting dumped ?
Click to expand...

Seeing as Hubbell & Donohue managed to lose to Weaver & Poje at SC in 2017-18 and still win a World silver medal and Cappellini & Lanotte managed to lose to Gilles & Poirier at SC in 2016-17 and still defeated them at Worlds and the Shibs managed to lose to Weaver & Poje at SC in 2015-16 and still win a World silver medal and Sinitsina & Katsalapov managed to lose to Hubbell & Donohue at SC last year and still win a World silver medal, this assumption may be a bit premature, no;)?

We have a long way to go this season. I'll stick with my opinion that it was a mistake for H&D to skip the preseason as they had no time to respond to feedback between events.

But I shan't be predicting late-season results yet.
 
And also, G/P need to replicate this position and scores at their away grand prix event as well before we truly know if this is an international push.

Or it could be like Bradie Tennell - the result was better in the front of a home crowd.
 
starrynight said:
And also, G/P need to replicate this position and scores at their away grand prix event as well before we truly know if this is an international push.
Click to expand...

Their other GP being Rostelecom (with only one other top 10 team in the field and no particularly high-ranked non-seeded Russian teams invited), and also considering the fact that scores usually run higher late in the GP (most definitely not excluding Rostelecom), I think we will probably have to wait for the GPF to have much of an idea there.

Worlds being in Canada, the home crowd argument is in this case moot as the Canadian teams are going to have that.
 
Dobre said:
Seeing as Hubbell & Donohue managed to lose to Weaver & Poje at SC in 2017-18 and still win a World silver medal and Cappellini & Lanotte managed to lose to Gilles & Poirier at SC in 2016-17 and still defeated them at Worlds and the Shibs managed to lose to Weaver & Poje at SC in 2015-16 and still win a World silver medal and Sinitsina & Katsalapov managed to lose to Hubbell & Donohue at SC last year and still win a World silver medal, this assumption may be a bit premature, no;)?

We have a long way to go this season. I'll stick with my opinion that it was a mistake for H&D to skip the preseason as they had no time to respond to feedback between events.

But I shan't be predicting late-season results yet.
Click to expand...
I agree that things are still very early but I do think H/D may lose some momentum if they don't tweak the free dance. The Shibs continued to work on “Fix You” throughout the season which is what got them the silver medal at worlds. Though SinKats were second at last years SC their win in the free dance was a signal that judges would go with them if they could overcome their inconsistency. For the top 4 at SC 19 the important thing will be what lessons they take from the competition to inform the rest of the season.
 
Dobre said:
I have a thought after watching the dance event at SC, and I want to share it before I forget. I am behind on all the dance threads after today. But I feel like Hawayek & Baker's programs this year . . . they are good. And I am glad that the judges at SC gave H&B the nod for the fun program because I've really been waiting to see this team go there in a competitive number for some while. But it would only take a few more humorous touches to grab the audience in a stronger way and hold them throughout both programs. However, I feel like no one in Montreal's specialty is doing good humorous choreography so maybe bring someone in? The Grease is not bad. And most of the Montreal programs have personal touches which I appreciate in them this season, but H&B's seem to be on the scant side with relation to the personality building.

Did Scott Hamilton do his own choreo for all those humorous programs? Because this is what H&B need, IMO. Just more entertaining moments (and not recycled Christopher Dean moves, please). I realize, of course, that you are mostly limited during the Finnstep; but H&B have the crowd right off the bat when Stayin' Alive starts, and then they don't have another grab the audience moment for maybe 2/3rds of the program until the stop before the last piece. Meanwhile they lose the crowd. They get it back as soon as the stop with the dancing starts, but there is no need to have to get it back. They could hold it all the way through the program if they just had more personality/humor in early. (Or a great lift, but you are pretty limited as far as how much of that you can do in an RD). They don't need a dance choreographer, in particular. They just need someone like Scott to come in and add the touches. (I honestly think Jean Luc might be able to do it himself. He seems to have that kind of humorous bent when it comes to some of the improv stuff I've seen from him).

The FD can use the same kind of thing. It strikes me as a spoof--that a spoof is what they are going for really. And there is one moment there where that is obvious, and the crowd responds. But H&B could use a lot more of this during the build up of the program. I really like how on the music they are throughout this program; but added choreographic moments with humor. I think that would take the program to the next level.
Click to expand...
I quite liked the RD performance at SC but I agree the FD could do with a couple of more touches of humour. Even though it’s a spoof it feels a little dense (it’s understandable because of the music)at the moment. Looking back at their gala performances am sure they will be able to get lighter touches in there.
 
I thought I would like H/D’s FD but I just don’t. Not liking it has been one of the bigger disappointments for me this season because I was really looking forward to seeing what they would do with it.

I don’t know what it is? To me the two pieces of music don’t work together well?

But that’s okay because I’m pretty sure I was the only person last season that liked their Romeo and Juliet FD. :rofl:

So there’s that.... :shuffle:

I’m sure they will be fine with a bit of tweaking and a cleaner performance.

SC was sloppy for them and they knew it. G/P delivered the higher technical program. It happens. It’s sport.

It’s just a pain for them to have to rework it again.
 
It is really unfortunate that H&D have been unwell for their two first outings. They haven't really been able to do their programs justice, and it was only fair they got beaten last night. I think it's unfair to judge their current standard based on performances where there were objective reasons for them to not be skating 100%.
 
In a TSL interview with Romain H., he agreed that last year's FD for H/D wasn't the best choice and this year that mistake wouldn't happen again. This was back in summer. It looks like the coaches don't see a problem with their programs and neither did Champs Camp to make them change these. The only unknown factor was the crowds reaction which plays into the way the judges view the programs too. It seems like a tricky thing but definitely something that can be fixed. This is relative to other programs in the events they are competing at.
 
VarBar said:
Gilles/Poirier are the only Canadian veteran ice dancers who didn,t hit the podium at Worlds. In fact, they are the only one North-American veteran couple without a Worlds medal. So the time has come for them to be rewarded too especially that Worlds will be held in Montreal. Simple as that. Then the judges will be dumping G/P as well when the time is right, to make room for the younger ones. And the viewers will blame it on G/Ps bad programs. Unless they retire before it happens.
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So does this mean that Piper's skating skills have improved that much or is it being ignored? I am asking because I am not a skater and unless a commentator or someone in the know points it out to me specifically on a vid I have no idea. The subject has become silent this yr and most of last yr so I really don't know. Being Canada#1 can be bringing a lot of claut.
 
wickedwitch said:
H/D have had a number of odd comments over the past year that make them look somewhat arrogant and complacent, IMO. (Personally, I think they're trying to appear confident for the judges sake, but are going just a tad too far.) But I'm not aggressively hating on them on social media either. And I'm pretty much the only person in the world who likes their FD apparently.
Click to expand...
I like it too.
 
I❤Marina&Sergai said:
For the top 4 at SC 19 the important thing will be what lessons they take from the competition to inform the rest of the season.
Click to expand...

Always.

I'm not familiar with the Star is Born soundtrack so I feel like I don't have any particularly good thoughts there for H&D. Happily, the program does have more line and unison within it than I could see during the run through in practice. The only part I dislike is the last 15 seconds or so. Because instead of ending with their strengths--the speed/flow/unison/power that they have throughout the rest of the program, they slow down and just kind of meander/dance around the ice there (especially, I would chuck the Shpilbandesque spinny thing that kills their momentum & goes nowhere).

Otherwise, the only other thought I have is that the country section early on could get the audience clapping along--at least the huge percentage of the audience that is Japanese--except that the music cuts out. Just as people are gearing up to clap, you lose the beat. (I remember the same thing was true with Cappellini & Lanotte's FD program in 2015-16). I don't know if extending that section would work for the story H&D are trying to tell. Just that they might think about it as it is a bit of a lost opportunity.
 
I think Sarah Kawahara did Scott’s funny programs. I think she is lives in Canada too fwiw.

Dobre said:
I have a thought after watching the dance event at SC, and I want to share it before I forget. I am behind on all the dance threads after today. But I feel like Hawayek & Baker's programs this year . . . they are good. And I am glad that the judges at SC gave H&B the nod for the fun program because I've really been waiting to see this team go there in a competitive number for some while. But it would only take a few more humorous touches to grab the audience in a stronger way and hold them throughout both programs. However, I feel like no one in Montreal's specialty is doing good humorous choreography so maybe bring someone in? The Grease is not bad. And most of the Montreal programs have personal touches which I appreciate in them this season, but H&B's seem to be on the scant side with relation to the personality building.

Did Scott Hamilton do his own choreo for all those humorous programs? Because this is what H&B need, IMO. Just more entertaining moments (and not recycled Christopher Dean moves, please). I realize, of course, that you are mostly limited during the Finnstep; but H&B have the crowd right off the bat when Stayin' Alive starts, and then they don't have another grab the audience moment for maybe 2/3rds of the program until the stop before the last piece. Meanwhile they lose the crowd. They get it back as soon as the stop with the dancing starts, but there is no need to have to get it back. They could hold it all the way through the program if they just had more personality/humor in early. (Or a great lift, but you are pretty limited as far as how much of that you can do in an RD). They don't need a dance choreographer, in particular. They just need someone like Scott to come in and add the touches. (I honestly think Jean Luc might be able to do it himself. He seems to have that kind of humorous bent when it comes to some of the improv stuff I've seen from him).

The FD can use the same kind of thing. It strikes me as a spoof--that a spoof is what they are going for really. And there is one moment there where that is obvious, and the crowd responds. But H&B could use a lot more of this during the build up of the program. I really like how on the music they are throughout this program; but added choreographic moments with humor. I think that would take the program to the next level.
Click to expand...
 
The FD is a problem because it doesn't play on their strength at all.
Like last season.
It makes them look heavy and slow, and that isn't something you want to in ice dance.

Yesterday, Madison didn't have a single clean edge on rockers or choctaws. Which doesn't happen to her ever, but it did. And the performance took a hit.

IMO the only good part of that program is Cooper's song. The gaga one doesn't work with them and what they try to do here. Go back to what worked int 2018 please.
 
Dobre said:
Otherwise, the only other thought I have is that the country section early on could get the audience clapping along--at least the huge percentage of the audience that is Japanese--except that the music cuts out. Just as people are gearing up to clap, you lose the beat. (I remember the same thing was true with Cappellini & Lanotte's FD program in 2015-16). I don't know if extending that section would work for the story H&D are trying to tell. Just that they might think about it as it is a bit of a lost opportunity.
Click to expand...
If they want to get Japanese people clapping, they should mix Shallow with Country Road. (I recently saw my first anime film ever, Whisper of the Heart, and was tickled to find that song such a big part of it. I've been singing it ever since.)
 
Gris said:
On another note, although I'm happy to see the Brits medal, 8.50 in SS is too generous.
Click to expand...

Judges are sending a message that the Brits are doing the kind of crowd-pleasing programs they want for ice dance. The Brits are benefitting from their inability to judge each category of the PCS separately.

ETA: Now I'm fantasizing about H/D skating the Madonna program with their power, speed, flow and sustained commitment to the performance. :wuzrobbed
 
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Dobre said:
Always.

I'm not familiar with the Star is Born soundtrack so I feel like I don't have any particularly good thoughts there for H&D. Happily, the program does have more line and unison within it than I could see during the run through in practice. The only part I dislike is the last 15 seconds or so. Because instead of ending with their strengths--the speed/flow/unison/power that they have throughout the rest of the program, they slow down and just kind of meander/dance around the ice there (especially, I would chuck the Shpilbandesque spinny thing that kills their momentum & goes nowhere).

Otherwise, the only other thought I have is that the country section early on could get the audience clapping along--at least the huge percentage of the audience that is Japanese--except that the music cuts out. Just as people are gearing up to clap, you lose the beat. (I remember the same thing was true with Cappellini & Lanotte's FD program in 2015-16). I don't know if extending that section would work for the story H&D are trying to tell. Just that they might think about it as it is a bit of a lost opportunity.
Click to expand...

This meandering ending thing has happened before from Gadbois and I'm not sure if it's a MF choreographic thing or not, but it has to go.

I remember the first version of V&M's Moulin Rouge had a kind of "dribbling away to nothing" ending that had no power in it. I was so disappointed with the choice of music and the choreo. I actually commented on Virtue's insta (the only time I've ever commented on any skater's insta ever) saying they had to fix the ending and make it more dramatic. I'm sure they got the same feedback from many sources because they made massive changes including a super dramatic dramatic ending that, in a way, defined the whole dance and brought the audience to their feet.

In one interview I listened to MF said they had to include the love story, but then made some comment about V&M wanting the dramatic ending with a kind of implication that they insisted on it but it was not her choice.

Although I'm a huge V&M fan and love their MR, my point is really about the power (and IMO opinion necessity) of a dramatic and clearly defined ending to ANY program. The final ending pose makes a statement that can colour your view of the whole program as it did for me with H&D's FD. I liked quite a lot of it and then it dribbled away to nothing and I was left feeling that there was no real ending to the story and that they didn't know what they were doing.
 
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