U.S. Pairs history at the World championships

[aftershocks]

No pair team from the USA has won the gold medal at the Olympics... I remember vividly when Ice dance was the stepchild of American skating. If that can change for the better, so can pairs. Hope is eternal

That's true, and hope does spring eternal.

Our current U.S. pairs skaters should be motivated by the U.S.'s strong legacy in pairs skating. In fact, Karol & Peter Kennedy, and Tai Babilonia & Randy Gardner were U.S. teams who were both in the running to win Olympic gold in 1952 and in 1980 respectively. Although it didn't happen, the talent and expertise of those and other talented U.S. pairs teams is definitely a legacy to draw inspiration from.

 

[olympic]

The change in U.S. Ice Dance was largely due to Shpilband / Zoueva and their training center, concentrating their wealth of knowledge in one place of what it would for U.S. Ice Dancers to improve and ultimately win. But, it also requires skaters that are completely motivated to do what it takes. I think that same route is possible for U.S. Pairs to follow. Isn't Robin Szolkowy supposed to be opening or staffing a training center somewhere in the U.S.?

 

[vanillashake]

The change in U.S. Ice Dance was largely due to Shpilband / Zoueva and their training center, concentrating their wealth of knowledge in one place of what it would for U.S. Ice Dancers to improve and ultimately win. But, it also requires skaters that are completely motivated to do what it takes. I think that same route is possible for U.S. Pairs to follow. Isn't Robin Szolkowy supposed to be opening or staffing a training center somewhere in the U.S.?

Robin Szolkowy is one of the masters, and also a very level headed and calm person. He could be the driving force U.S pairs need.

With Russia considerably weakened in pairs and China starting to reach the end of their well, the door will be wide open for new countries in the coming years.

 

[vanillashake]

One big problem for U.S pairs though is they dont stay together long for whatever reason.

 

[aftershocks]

Isn't Robin Szolkowy supposed to be opening or staffing a training center somewhere in the U.S.?

Robin Szolkowy is one of the masters, and also a very level headed and calm person. He could be the driving force U.S pairs need.

Robin Szolkowy relocated to the U.S. with his family earlier this year to coach pairs with Jenni Meno & Todd Sand (also with Christine Fowler Binder) at the new training facility in Irvine, California: Great Parks Ice & Five Points Arena. U.S. Champs Camp will be held at this same facility from August 24 - 28.

Rafael Arutunian's training camp also relocated to this facility in April. As well, Frank Carroll is a High Performance Consultant at this new facility: https://www.greatparkice.com/figure-skating/staff-private-lessons/

Robin announced his coaching relocation plans on his Instagram in January 2019:

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I notice Robin has also recently announced that he and his wife, Romy, are expecting another baby boy to join their soon-to-be 4-year-old son, Henry. Robin celebrated his 40th birthday on July 14.

One big problem for U.S pairs though is they dont stay together long for whatever reason.

There's every indication that this situation is beginning to change, at least to an extent on the U.S. senior pairs level. Denney/Frazier have been together for many years, and they have stuck together through a lot of adversity. The Knierims have also stayed together through thick and thin. Kayne/O'Shea have been together for a good while.

The recent pairs switch involving Calalang/Johnson was apparently triggered by Calalang's former partner retiring most likely due to a nagging back injury. The new pairing of C/J appears to be working wonders, bringing out the best in both skaters -- they make an excellent match. Johnson's former partner, Chelsea Liu (now Jiaxi Liu) is training and competing for China with her new partner, Xie Zhong.

 

[aftershocks]

With Russia considerably weakened in pairs and China starting to reach the end of their well ...

Russia is not exactly 'weakened' in pairs. They still have talented teams to be reckoned with, in addition to political advantages when it comes to scoring. Albeit in recent years, their pairs division's death-grip podium dominance has let up slightly, allowing teams from Germany, China, Canada, and recently France, to gain a competitive foothold on top medal contention.

China may be hitting some speed bumps in their pairs division boffo talent, but it's probably wishful thinking to suggest China has "reached the end of their well." Did you by chance notice Sui/Han's prodigious, forceful will and desire on display at the 2019 World championships? It would be blasphemy to count out any of the Chinese pairs teams. The fact that the Chinese fed has been copping U.S. ladies talent to fill out their singles ladies and even their pairs divisions shows their resilience, and their effective long term competitive strategies.

 

[starbucks]

1990 thru 1992 - 3; Kuchiki/Sand bronze in '91
1993 - 2
1994 - 3 (pairs entry list reaches a high of 24, with 4 teams not advancing to the final)
1995 - 2 Meno/Sand win bronze; had placed 6th in 1994
1996 thru 1997 - 3 Meno/Sand win bronze in '96
1998 - 2 Meno/Sand silver '98

You left out a couple of US medals, added above.

 

[vanillashake]

Russia is not exactly 'weakened' in pairs. They still have talented teams to be reckoned with, in addition to political advantages when it comes to scoring. Albeit in recent years, their pairs division's death-grip podium dominance has let up slightly, allowing teams from Germany, China, Canada, and recently France, to gain a competitive foothold on top medal contention.

China may be hitting some speed bumps in their pairs division boffo talent, but it's probably wishful thinking to suggest China has "reached the end of their well." Did you by chance notice Sui/Han's prodigious, forceful will and desire on display at the 2019 World championships? It would be blasphemy to count out any of the Chinese pairs teams. The fact that the Chinese fed has been copping U.S. ladies talent to fill out their singles ladies and even their pairs divisions shows their resilience, and their effective long term competitive strategies.

Russia is weakened in pairs relative to what they were for a long time. Their current #1 team is Tarasova & Morozov. A team of their level who cant even win a single major title, would never have been #1 Russian team in the past.

As for China I mean they dont seem to have anyone coming up after Sui & Han retire probably after 2022, and possibly Peng & Jin.

 

[aftershocks]

You left out a couple of US medals, added above.

In the list in my second post, I left out some medal mentions. But that's largely because I had already provided a brief rundown of U.S. pairs medalists in my first post in this thread (which covered the Meno/Sand and Kuchiki/Sand medal milestones I inadvertently left out in the second post). I was going to go back and add those mentions to the list, but I didn't get around to it before the editing window closed.

The list in my second post in this thread intentionally concentrated more on the number of U.S. pairs spots at Worlds from year-to-year in order to provide historical perspective. I did include additional references to what happened in particular years regarding medals, etc., but I did it at random, because the number of U.S. pairs spots was my main focus. As I said earlier, I was initially only planning to do a quick check and then a brief run-through from the 1970s forward, but I got completely hooked and began checking every year from the very beginning that pairs competition began, in 1908. Therefore, compiling the list took me hours.

There are many, many fascinating avenues to go down in every direction with the stats and the various historical tidbits and biographies of skaters, etc., including what was also happening in the larger culture during these various competitive periods in pairs history. For example, Meno/Sand were a very popular and well-respected team during their era. They were dedicated to focusing on the aesthetics of their skating, as well as being grounded in the solid technique they'd learned from their coach, John Nicks. Their desire was to explore and to highlight the significant connection between traditional dance/ballet aesthetic and movement qualities between two partners on the ice.

Meno/Sand were featured on the cover of Dance Magazine (March 1996), with a nice interview inside. I may or may not still have a copy of that issue. I have been unable to find the cover photo online, surprisingly, since it's only about 23 years old. Fortunately, I was able to find the full article, so I'll link it below. It's fascinating to take a look back and recall how they met (they trained together under John Nicks with different partners: Scott Wendland and Natasha Kuchiki, respectively). Based on their description, Jenni & Todd got to know each other better during the Albertville Olympics in 1992. They talked a lot and discovered how similar their ideas and goals in skating were. As a result, they developed a passion to skate with each other. They were apparently very sensitive to and respectful in the way they broke the news to their respective partners, and to their coach, John Nicks. The rest is pairs skating history:

Jenni Meno and Todd Sand: giving double pleasure in pairs skating. - Free Online Library

Free Online Library: Jenni Meno and Todd Sand: giving double pleasure in pairs skating.(Interview) by "Dance Magazine"; Arts, visual and performing Skaters Interviews

www.thefreelibrary.com

"... during the 1992 Winter Olympics. 'We became a lot closer, and talked about a lot of things,' Meno recalls. 'We realized we really wanted to skate together.' 'That was a magical couple of weeks,' adds Sand. 'Our lives really changed. It was a turning point in our lives, professionally and personally, although we didn't realize, it at the time.'"

Nicks said he had no clue about the connection that grew between Meno and Sand, so he was surprised when both pairs teams broke the news after 1992 Worlds, that Jenni and Todd would be skating together:

"'We took a big risk at the time, but we really believed in what we were doing,' Meno states. 'We had the same ideas about music, choreography, and what we wanted our skating to look like.' Notes Sand, 'We both wanted to skate to classical music, develop our line, do all the technically difficult things you must do to become a top pairs skater but make it look beautiful at the same time.' Nicks echoes the couple: 'Jenni and Todd went into the partnership with very similar goals and agreement about how to get there.' ... 'They care about how a throw double axel should be entered, performed, and exited, with great attention to the music. We spend hours listening to the music, to find out what the music is telling us about where to put these various elements.'"

The article also reminds us that Jenni and Todd both had a background in ballet training, and both (not unusually) were formerly singles skaters. As partners, they continued to take regular ballet barre classes with a teacher who was attuned to their needs. Reading this article again for the first time in so many years, I am struck by the fact that I'd actually forgotten how involved and pioneering Meno & Sand were in changing the way music was used and constructed for competitive pairs performances:
"[In 1995], they broke with the usual skaters' choice of music that is [edited], sometimes jarringly, into brief segments of different pieces (usually in order to create a fast-slow-fast structure) and went with one continuous piece, an orchestral version of the aria Nessun Dorma from Puccini's Turandot. 'They wanted to do something that was different from most competitive programs,' explains [their choreographer, Lea Ann] Miller ... 'They're both so musical, and they don't just go from trick to trick as some skaters do. They really crave steps. They have a musical sense you can't teach, and their bodies are so well matched. They push themselves, and have that desire to be different, and we got very exciting results. It's very unusual for a pair to have this kind of success in such a short time.'"

Re-reading this article after so many years, brings home to me in a very poignant way how revealing and important information that abounds in expansive connections, can be lost over time. As well, I'm reminded of how much we take the current moment for granted, without fully understanding or remembering how we got to here from there.

Sending a debt of gratitude to Jenni & Todd for their invaluable coaching expertise, and many joyful thanks to them for the lasting and unforgettable memories they created together on the ice. A special thanks to John Nicks too, for his immeasurable contributions to the sport, and to the legacy of U.S. pairs skating!

I do remember it quite well, but I'm seeing this performance with new eyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x14mYVPj3VY Meno/Sand fp 1995 Worlds to Nessun Dorma
This performance is very special throughout with an amazing climax. Look at their variation moves in the death spiral, and the deathdrop dismount matching the music crescendo on their final lift.

It might be nice if some pairs today would try more variations like this in their death spirals. In addition, as we hear from the commentators, the counter direction moves on the lifts were apparently a developing innovation at that time.

 

[aftershocks]

Russia is weakened in pairs relative to what they were for a long time. Their current #1 team is Tarasova & Morozov. A team of their level who cant even win a single major title, would never have been #1 Russian team in the past.

As for China I mean they dont seem to have anyone coming up after Sui & Han retire probably after 2022, and possibly Peng & Jin.

Mmmm, no I disagree with you regarding your observation of Russian pairs. Much of the history of Russian pairs is tied to politics, and to how the Russian federation capitalized on Belousova/Protopopov's ground-breaking pioneering of new moves and new approaches to pairs figure skating in the 1960s. B/P were not hugely favored by the Russian fed because it was felt the pair were too old. However, what B/P did for pairs evolution and for Russian pairs dominance, cannot be underestimated.

There are some Russian pairs who were not better overall e.g., than Tai & Randy, nor aesthetically better than Meno/Sand, but the politics, combined with the strong Russian classical ballet tradition, pioneeringly leveraged by the Protopopovs, kept Russian pairs teams on top for years, to the point where Russians seem to feel they belong on top of the podium all the time. Russian pairs and Russian pairs aesthetic deserve a lot of credit, but their skaters don't deserve credit and points that are politically-motivated. Case in point: No way that T/M should have won 2017 Internationaux de France in front of France's James/Cipres, who skated better than the Russians, in slam dunk fashion too!

I previously acknowledged that Russia's death grip dominance on the pairs podium has lessened in recent years, but that does not mean their fed's political influence, nor their skaters' talent has weakened. It's just that there's increasingly more depth internationally in pairs, as well as in the other disciplines. It's a fact that many pairs teams today have been largely influenced by the innovation and chutzpah of Savchenko/Szolkowy, by the athleticism and fierce competitiveness of Duhamel/Radford, and in recent years by the charisma, synergy and excitement of James/Cipres, especially with the smooth flow and creativity garnered in collaboration with ice dance choreographers.

And yet, seemingly in the minds of many judges, T/M are considered aesthetically and technically the state-of-the-art.
I would agree that T/M are state-of-the-art in pairs when they are at their best technically. But I disagree that they are or should be the face of pairs skating. That mantle was owned by Savchenko/Szolkowy, Savchenko/Massot, and briefly by Volosozhar/Trankov and Duhamel/Radford, and in recent years, it's been owned by the amazing Sui/Han, and by France's James/Cipres through the sheer excitement and synergy of their on-ice connection, combined with their costumes, music, and the exciting improvements they've made to their skating.

Still, the old guard and the politics favor T/M, even when they aren't at their best. Plus, Boikova/Koslovskii, the exciting young Russian pair co-coached by the legendary Tamara Moskvina, have great potential. And there are other up-and-coming Russian pairs with talent. I think it's a good thing though that the international pairs playing field has been leveled in recent years. But whenever the Olympics rolls around, the Russian fed goes into politicking overdrive. They have already made improvements and political maneuverings in ice dance. And you can bet they are fiercely preparing to position T/M for 2022 Beijing. However, if Sui/Han are healthy and in competitive shape, they surely would be favored to win.

The fact T/M hasn't won Worlds or Olympic gold does not mean Russian pairs are weakened. T/M have won a slew of medals on the GP, they won GPF in 2016-17 season, and they have two silver medals and a bronze medal at Worlds. T/M's biggest failing has been their inability to project to the audience and to connect with each other. As well, the competition is stiffer. It's actually China, North America, France, and previously Germany with S/S and Steuer who breathed fresh life and creativity into pairs competition, especially with collaborators like Shae Lynn Bourne, John Kerr, Charlie White, et al, lending choreographic input.

Your thoughts about Chinese pairs may be true. That's why Chinese fed felt the necessity to obtain Chelsea Liu from the U.S. Still, I would not presume to characterize the Chinese pairs program as being currently down for the count. China will be fielding three pairs teams at Worlds this season. We'll see what happens this season. I would certainly be happy to see some groundbreaking changes in the balance of power among the pairs division.

 

[vanillashake]

Of course there is always politics, but as you said politics favors T&M at times too and yet they still fail to win even one major title with that. So it seems clear they are weaker than past Russian #1s and the depth are pool of talent overall in Russia is weaker. If you arent convinced just compare them mentally to the Protoppopovs, Rodnina & Ulanov or Rodnina & Zaitsev, Gordeeva & Grinkov, Miskutienok & Dmitriev, Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, Volosozhar & Trankov, or probably even Valova & Vasiliev or Totmianina & Marinin. And it pretty easy to see they are inferior to all of those teams. A team like them never would have been Russian #1 in the past as they arent strong enough.

As for competition yes China is much stronger now than they once were, but that is thinking long term history, since they have been really strong for 20 years now, and many times even stronger overall than they are now. There was a long period they had 3 major medal contenders in Shen & Zhao, Pang & Tong, Zhangs all at once, which they dont have now. I would say overall Canada is weaker than it used to be. We still have some great pairs at times like Duhamel & Radford, but on the whole we used to be a bigger force than we are now. The U.S is definitely weaker than they have been in the past. Germany used to be a lot stronger in competition, it looks like Savchenko is retired again, but outside of her and her partners and Woetzer & Stuer in the 90s they have had nobody else the last 3 and a half decades, when they used to regularly be a huge force in pairs. France have James & Cipres who are their best pair in a long while, and Massot comes from France, so yeah I would say France is stronger today. I wouldnt say overall the competition is stronger now than in the past.

 

[aftershocks]

... as you said politics favors T&M at times too and yet they still fail to win even one major title with that. So it seems clear they are weaker than past Russian #1s and the depth are pool of talent overall in Russia is weaker.

Politics always favors T/M, as it has many Russian teams, regardless of poor performances. Once again, a blatant case in point: T/M winning 2017 IDF with mistake-ridden Candyman over a spectacular showing by J/C in their home country, no less!

The fact T/M have often failed with political support is due to the increasing depth of talent in pairs, and as well to the fact that T/M have so far been unable to fully project their personalities or to show any real emotional connection with each other. The other startingly fact is how they have consistently picked terrible vehicles that don't jibe with their abilities -- forget about enhancing what they are good at. Some of their classical selections have worked well, but still without them projecting any charisma or connection whatsoever. I once saw them do an exhibition number where amazingly they touched the edges of projecting a bit of personality. But they need a lot of work in that aspect of their skating. Winning GPF is major whether you think so or not.

As far as T/M never winning Worlds or Olympics, that's because of the stiff competition and because they haven't deserved to yet, not because they can't or won't. If they don't ever land on top in a major, it will probably be because of the competition and because of the problematic areas of their skating, i.e., inability to connect with each other and project more to the audience.

IMO, T/M are not weaker than Russian pairs teams of the past. There were some teams in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s who won mostly because of superior technique and the dominant love the skating community has for Russian aesthetic tradition, not because these teams projected much personality. Most of them didn't. But politics, Russian rep, and their generally consistent tech expertise kept them on top. So T/M are as good and in some cases better than those teams re technical brilliance. It's just that unfortunately for T/M they are facing more depth of competition and they have thus far been unable to find any charismatic mojo. They obviously have been trying, as have many teams, to copy the je ne sais quoi and pièce de résistance that James/Cipres magically possess.

It is possibly true that Rusfed has a somewhat weaker pool of skaters in pairs comparative to their past. If this is somewhat true, I think it's largely because of Rusfed's dedicated focus on improving their singles disciplines over the past 25 years or so, which probably took some talent away from pairs. At least that's a possible factor. Nothing happens in a vacuum regarding developments in the sport of figure skating.

 

[Spiralgraph]

Concerning Meno and Sand... yes they were a very good American pair. and their "Artistic merit" as we used to say back in the day was strong.. but they did have a few weaknesses. They only did sbs double axels until 1998 when they upped their technical content to compete with technically superior and dynamic team of Ina/Dunjen. Plus I think Jenni and Todd played it a little too safe by skating to classical music almost exclusively. I liked them but they never excited me.

 

[vanillashake]

I wish U.S pairs could get back to where they were in 95-2002. During this period they were often contending for atleast the bronze medal with teams like Meno & Sand, Ina & Dungen, Ina & Zimmerman. They arent even medal contenders at all anymore.

 

[vanillashake]

Concerning Meno and Sand... yes they were a very good American pair. and their "Artistic merit" as we used to say back in the day was strong.. but they did have a few weaknesses. They only did sbs double axels until 1998 when they upped their technical content to compete with technically superior and dynamic team of Ina/Dunjen. Plus I think Jenni and Todd played it a little too safe by skating to classical music almost exclusively. I liked them but they never excited me.

Their triple twist was also questionable. They crashed together and he caught her very late, often struggling to before landed. They were still doing a throw double axel after other teams had even gone to a throw triple loop. And they didnt so most things as big and explosive as some other top teams.

It was side by side triples they finally added in 97. They always had double axels.

I think they didnt reach the #1 spot since they just werent quite as athletic as some of their peers, even though they were beautiful, elegant, had a great romantic look, and often excellent programs. They still had a stellar career with 3 world medals. Had it not been for the reinstated pros they might have won the bronze at the Lillehammer Olympics, they were spectacular there.

 

[alchemy void]

Concerning Meno and Sand... yes they were a very good American pair. and their "Artistic merit" as we used to say back in the day was strong.. but they did have a few weaknesses. They only did sbs double axels until 1998 when they upped their technical content to compete with technically superior and dynamic team of Ina/Dunjen. Plus I think Jenni and Todd played it a little too safe by skating to classical music almost exclusively. I liked them but they never excited me.

I always thought their 1998 Worlds LP was VERY generously marked. 5 judges had them at a 5.6 and 5.7 for technical merit, with very little content:

2Tw
2A
th3S fall
1A+2T+seq shaky
th2A

And they also seemed to be crawling at the end, which even Dick Button noted. I don't understand how they managed such high scores with zero political support.

 

[vanillashake]

I always thought their 1998 Worlds LP was VERY generously marked. 5 judges had them at a 5.6 and 5.7 for technical merit, with very little content:

2Tw
2A
th3S fall
1A+2T+seq shaky
th2A

And they also seemed to be crawling at the end, which even Dick Button noted. I don't understand how they managed such high scores with zero political support.

I think that was a retirement gift, and some home cooking (Worlds were in Minnnesota). They were probably underscored a few times earlier in their career though, so I guess it balances out.

 

[aftershocks]

I liked them but they never excited me.

I enjoyed Meno/Sand a great deal as pairs skaters. Their talent, enthusiasm and aesthetic vision I found uplifting to watch. For sure, they did not have the most difficult jumps in their arsenal, but they worked very hard, had and still have a passion for the sport, and they achieved some wonderful career milestones against the odds. They are also very good coaches too, passing on the John Nicks legacy!

 

[aftershocks]

I wish U.S pairs could get back to where they were in 95-2002... They arent even medal contenders at all anymore.

This thread shows us how much things go in cycles. Plus, we surely realize by now the hard luck current top U.S. pairs have recently gone through with injury and illness setbacks. But things are turning around for the U.S. pairs discipline. The top teams at their best are competitive, and they should be receiving more recognition from the judges after the strides they made on the GP last season.

It takes time to rebuild, but with more consistency combined with the experience our top senior teams have under their belts, things are looking up. And, there are a number of promising new, and exciting up-and-coming U.S. teams!

In any case, I simply enjoy watching all U.S. pairs teams, because pairs is so enjoyable to watch. There's something about two people skating on the ice that's magical and uplifting. I root for U.S. pairs, but I try not to get too caught up in outcomes. It's fun seeing cool moves and interesting choreography. When teams skate and place well, that's icing on the cake, but it's their journey and the moments that got them there that have the most meaning.