SafeSport alleges "culture of grooming and abuse" in U.S. figure skating

[VGThuy]

But there does exist a special victim's unit which was created because crimes of a sexual nature were so different from many other criminal acts and the old way of investigation wasn't satisfying anyone so they had to create a special unit who specialized in investigating those crimes. So it's not a matter of fact/fiction.

I think people are having too much fun playing with hypotheticals that they lost sight of reality for a moment. SafeSport was created as an answer to many athletic bodies who were all failing to address VERY REAL issues of widespread sexual misconduct, bullying, and other sorts of abuses. It's beyond figure skating and even gymnastics, but it was happening to many sports. The call for it was also heightened due to the sheer number of victims and enablers and structures created to let offenders take advantage of a pool of essentially or literally children who are in the care of responsible adults who were letting them fall victim to so much sexual misconduct. Further, there were many issues of offenders repeating even after getting caught and creating a culture of silence and encouraging a shame cycle for victims where they just kept it to themselves which of course harm them longterm psychologically and emotionally.

 

[AxelAnnie]

People have endured worse and gone on with their lives, finding new ways to earn a living if their career has been ended (i.e. doctor who committed malpractice).

Life is precious to many people, even when facing adversity. Unfortunately some reach such low levels of despair and depression that they can't see any way forward.

And some people can't

 

[hanca]

I keep reading. I learned that "misconduct" term is all inclusive, and does not excludes "criminal behavior" and can include "abuse". So that makes it more clear for me why what is reported under term "misconduct" can be not just a "behavioral misdemeanor" but something that is in general law can be considered a "crime" (like harassment, coercion, aggression, etc.). So, now i no longer have an issue with classification of "misconduct" as some "minor inconvenience, unpleasantness" to a victim, if it is a general term that can also include criminal elements of "offence, force and violence".

Still have the following question about "abuse of power", between "student" and "coach/teacher". If people say that it is about "power", and not specifically about "sex", and yet i see that what is brought to light is "all about sex", then how would the following situation be classified.

- 18 year old skater/student. 30-40 year old coach/teacher. Very close relationship of many years.
- Coach/teacher is married to a Financial adviser or a Stock broker.
- 18 year old skater/student inherits money/wins a lottery/receives a big amount from sponsor/prize money.
- Coach/teacher offers to skater/student the services of his/her spouse, to invest through the services.
- The "financial specialist" spouse makes a bad deal (maybe not intentionally, no fraud, just wrong decisions), and student/skater loses all the money.

Or, if a teacher/coach invites a student/skater to invest in joint real estate? or to open a private school together?

Is this situation an abuse of power and can it be reported? And if not a "loss of money, then the mere fact of "skating/school teacher" getting involved in "student/skater" finances and influencing?

@Tinami Amori , you with your scenarios! I can see that we don’t have to worry, you won’t run out of examples.

 

[VGThuy]

And some people can't

Well, that's life. People will some times get called into a process they don't want to be in, but have to deal with it. People don't realize how many people end up in criminal court (even if we're just talking about the municipal level) for things they swear they did not do and have only been accused of due to malice, etc. or have to go to a restraining order hearing because someone alleged abuse OR get called in front of their licensing board for some malpractice they've been accused of committing. It's pretty common actually, and most people just have to deal with it and make their case.

 

[caseyedwards]

People have endured worse and gone on with their lives, finding new ways to earn a living if their career has been ended (i.e. doctor who committed malpractice).

Life is precious to many people, even when facing adversity. Unfortunately some reach such low levels of despair and depression that they can't see any way forward.

Sometimes while being treated by doctors and on medication! So SafeSport advice to Coughlin of “go To a doctor” was maybe the worst thing uncovered in this whole story! The worst abuse was done to coughlin by safesport

 

[VGThuy]

Sometimes while being treated by doctors and on medication! So SafeSport advice to Coughlin of “go To a doctor” was maybe the worst thing uncovered in this whole story! The worst abuse was done to coughlin by safesport

SafeSport is not responsible for Coughlin's actions.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Sometimes while being treated by doctors and on medication! So SafeSport advice to Coughlin of “go To a doctor” was maybe the worst thing uncovered in this whole story! The worst abuse was done to coughlin by safesport

What do you expect SafeSport to offer him, other than "to see a doctor"? hold his hand? SafeSport is not responsible how people react to their process. SS is an organization, legally registered, with its activities approved, and requested, it is an accepted entitity by other sports authorities and organizations, they (SS) have procedures, they follow them, administratively... nobody is arrested and sent to gulag. it's a procedure.

(and who and why and for what this organization is used, is another subject).

 

[meggonzo]

Sometimes while being treated by doctors and on medication! So SafeSport advice to Coughlin of “go To a doctor” was maybe the worst thing uncovered in this whole story! The worst abuse was done to coughlin by safesport

Do we have anything printed that SafeSport told Coughlin "go to a doctor", or is that just based on speculation from posters in this thread?

I can't even respond to the ridiculousness of the rest of your post.

 

[Artistic Skaters]

I think people are having too much fun playing with hypotheticals that they lost sight of reality for a moment. SafeSport was created as an answer to many athletic bodies who were all failing to address VERY REAL issues of widespread sexual misconduct, bullying, and other sorts of abuses. It's beyond figure skating and even gymnastics, but it was happening to many sports. The call for it was also heightened due to the sheer number of victims and enablers and structures created to let offenders take advantage of a pool of essentially or literally children who are in the care of responsible adults who were letting them fall victim to so much sexual misconduct. Further, there were many issues of offenders repeating even after getting caught and creating a culture of silence and encouraging a shame cycle for victims where they just kept it to themselves which of course harm them longterm psychologically and emotionally.

The willful ignorance in this topic is petty and disturbing. Considering the obsession some posters have when it comes to "bad faith" pursuits of SafeSports complaints, it is surprising to read such irresponsible comments from them that seem to be made in bad faith.

What I've learned from reading this thread is that we have many people who want to protect skaters. Although they may not always agree on the best methods, they do agree on the bottom line. However, there is apparently quite a contingent that is willing to deliberately advocate, in a reckless and thoughtless manner, to remove processes for athletes to seek redress of these types of grievances. It's certainly discouraging for people who want to further the safety and quality of youth sports programs.

It's just another example of how a sport with such beauty and artistry can also be full of ugliness.

 

[hoptoad]

I rather have an annoying relationship for some duration of time, or have my butt pinched, then lose all my money...

Be sure to let us know when you are faced with this either/or situation.

 

[Spun Silver]

Having followed the horrific Nasser saga, I understand where the concerns for victims and potential victims are coming from, but I am also aware of the presumption of innocence and the venerable legal principle, "It is better that 10 guilty men escape than that one innocent man suffer" (Blackstone). False accusations are not that uncommon either. From what I have seen and read of John I can't help wondering if he is that innocent man. I wish we could find out the truth, because as much as I want him to be innocent, I care about truth more. What is difficult to live with is a nontransparent judgment of a certain level of guilt (but not a final judgment) without the public information that would explain it. The end. It's asking a lot of the figure skating community to be comfortable with that IMO. And to find that difficult in no way indicates a lack of concern for victims.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Be sure to let us know when you are faced with this either/or situation.

I'll tell you a story now, in brief. Once i worked for a company and later had a choice to transfer to one of two departments. In one department the manager was a skirt chaser (on words mostly, with occasional close hug, or pet on the shoulder). In the other one the manager was a high-ranking member in the Church of Scientology; he invited employees to the Scientology meetings and seminars, under pretense of "learning the effective management practices", claiming that it has nothing to do with the ideology, that these are just very effective life and work management tichniques.

I picked to work with a skirt chaser..

 

[believed]

Having followed the horrific Nasser saga, I understand where the concerns for victims and potential victims are coming from, but I am also aware of the presumption of innocence and the venerable legal principle, "It is better that 10 guilty men escape than that one innocent man suffer" (Blackstone). False accusations are not that uncommon either. From what I have seen and read of John I can't help wondering if he is that innocent man. I wish we could find out the truth, because as much as I want him to be innocent, I care about truth more. What is difficult to live with is a nontransparent judgment of a certain level of guilt (but not a final judgment) without the public information that would explain it. The end. It's asking a lot of the figure skating community to be comfortable with that IMO. And to find that difficult in no way indicates a lack of concern for victims.

Except everything about this prioritizes the accused over the victims, which does indicate a lack of concern for victims especially since people have shown that there are statistics showing that there are very few accusations (rather than “not that uncommon”), that he had THREE! accusations leveled against him, there was an investigation ongoing that elevated the suspension status on him, and that even people you think may be the nicest guy ever can still be responsible for misconduct of any kind.

 

[misskarne]

False accusations are not that uncommon either.

Actually, they are. Figures on this vary slightly but are usually around the 4-8% mark. That's right, only 4-8% of accusations that are false. That's pretty bloody uncommon.

(I despise the "false accusations happen all the time!" narrative used by people to defend rapists and sexual abusers.)

From what I have seen and read of John I can't help wondering if he is that innocent man. I wish we could find out the truth, because as much as I want him to be innocent, I care about truth more.

Well, Coughlin himself made sure we'll never know.

 

[VGThuy]

Well, Coughlin himself made sure we'll never know.

Exactly. He had the ability and opportunity to defend himself and confront his accusers as the investigation was on-going, and it's nobody else's fault why that did not happen.

 

[Spun Silver]

We could fight over statistics for days. It's very clear that many here are determined to see Coughlin in light of Nasser, are unmoved by his suicide, and can only accept a black-white reading of an investigation that will apparently remain forever unresolved. Different worldviews, obviously. A plea for truth is in no way an apology for abusers, but if you say so....

 

[misskarne]

We could fight over statistics for days. It's very clear that many here are determined to see Coughlin in light of Nasser, are unmoved by his suicide, and can only accept a black-white reading of an investigation that will apparently remain forever unresolved. Different worldviews, obviously. A plea for truth is in no way an apology for abusers, but if you say so....

Not at all. I've made no statement indicating my view on his guilt or innocence either way.

My anger at him is that he chose to end the investigation in the worst possible way. My anger at the posters here is directed that those who see Coughlin only as whiter than white, he must be innocent, he could not possibly have done anything wrong. It is also directed at certain repeat offenders who will never, ever believe that someone could have been raped or sexually assaulted or abused and that it's always, always the woman's fault.

And whether you like it or not, the line about false accusations is always used as a defense for evil.

 

[caseyedwards]

SafeSport is not responsible for Coughlin's actions.

this is where I totally differ. Safesport is directly responsible because they put him on the scarlet list not knowing if he was guilty! They just treated him like he was

What do you expect SafeSport to offer him, other than "to see a doctor"? hold his hand? SafeSport is not responsible how people react to their process. SS is an organization, legally registered, with its activities approved, and requested, it is an accepted entitity by other sports authorities and organizations, they (SS) have procedures, they follow them, administratively... nobody is arrested and sent to gulag. it's a procedure.

(and who and why and for what this organization is used, is another subject).

Yes I do actually. Safesport as set up now destroys the lives of innocent people. It can do more support if it wants to continue the way it does.

Do we have anything printed that SafeSport told Coughlin "go to a doctor", or is that just based on speculation from posters in this thread?

I don’t believe so

Actually, they are. Figures on this vary slightly but are usually around the 4-8% mark. That's right, only 4-8% of accusations that are false. That's pretty bloody uncommon.

(I despise the "false accusations happen all the time!" narrative used by people to defend rapists and sexual abusers.)



Well, Coughlin himself made sure we'll never know.

There are many cases a year of false accusations. that makes it common. The raw numbers shows that it’s common. True allegations are common and so are false. There are so many.

That’s because he was already being treated and seen as a guilty man

Exactly. He had the ability and opportunity to defend himself and confront his accusers as the investigation was on-going, and it's nobody else's fault why that did not happen.

It’s perfectly understandable why someone whose life has been destroyed already wouldn’t want to “defend” themselves against being a some kind of predator against minors! There is no winning! He already lost everything never to get it back.

 

[VGThuy]

How is it any different from when someone gets charged of a crime and it's published in local newspapers before they get their trial date? If someone was accused of murder, was sent to prison without pre-trial release (which is common and thus disrupting their lives), but then was able to argue for pre-trial release after an appeal and was at home, and then killed themself before the trial date where at trial all the evidence and witnesses finally get revealed to the public, is the criminal justice system responsible for that person's death?

I also see you're making up statistics out of your ass. Study some criminology before you attempt refute the number of false accusations that have shown to happen in these sort of cases.

 

[caseyedwards]

How is it any different from when someone gets charged of a crime and it's published in local newspapers before they get their trial date? If someone was accused of murder, was sent to prison without pre-trial release (which is common and thus disrupting their lives), but then was able to argue for pre-trial release after an appeal and was at home, and then killed themself before the trial date where at trial all the evidence and witnesses finally get revealed to the public, is the criminal justice system responsible for that person's death?

Because it’s mostly all public. With safesport they keep pretty much everything secret.

 

[Tinami Amori]

It’s perfectly understandable why someone whose life has been destroyed already wouldn’t want to “defend” themselves against being a some kind of predator against minors! There is no winning! He already lost everything never to get it back.

I know situations where people ended their lives for the following reasons (relatives of my friends):
- divorce
- bankruptcy
- a law suite that lead to a loss of business

Do you propose to disallow: divorces, debt collection, tort law cases/claims?

 

[Spun Silver]

Not at all. I've made no statement indicating my view on his guilt or innocence either way.

My anger at him is that he chose to end the investigation in the worst possible way. My anger at the posters here is directed that those who see Coughlin only as whiter than white, he must be innocent, he could not possibly have done anything wrong. It is also directed at certain repeat offenders who will never, ever believe that someone could have been raped or sexually assaulted or abused and that it's always, always the woman's fault.

And whether you like it or not, the line about false accusations is always used as a defense for evil.

From where I stand, the denial that some accusations are false is a sign that the speaker has no concern for truth. It is a simple fact that some accusations are false. There is not a mountain of evidence against John. There are three accusations of something sexual - we don't know, or it is not being said, what - and an unfinished investigation with an "interim" suspension as its last word. As for your straw men of those who see Coughlin as absolutely innocent, maybe those are people who knew him well. I did not. I only wish he would be found innocent. My allegiance is to the truth, which it appears we will never know.

 

[Prancer]

Emotional abuse is so subjective.... I am sure there is a student who is getting all D's and F's, and feels "emotionally abused" when a teacher tells him "you did badly on the exam" while expecting to hear "nice try, hope you do better next time"...

Yes? I have had students lodge complaints against me for harsh grading.

Again, people can complain about anything. The mere fact that there is a complaint might be particularly meaningful if the complaint were taken as truth and acted on immediately, but that's not how it works either for me or with SafeSport, so I am not sure why you have such an issue with the fact that there are complaints about things you don't think people should complain about.

I can only imagine what you would say if quoted a TV Show comment as a "fact and truth"...

That might have something to do with the fact that I know the difference between a fact, a truth, and an assertion.

But as VietGrl pointed out, there IS an SVU and it exists for the reason stated, so you can decide how much truth there in the assertion.

Not minimizing. For fairness sake simply expanding the range of offences that can hurt someone's life by "power imbalance"..

Yes, you are minimizing because you are equating two things that are not equal for the purpose of diminshing what you consider a "side." If you want to equate pinching a butt and coercive sex, feel free to cite a case in which SafeSport suspended a coach for pinching a butt; the two can only be fairly considered equivalent in consequence if the consequences are equivalent. And if they are not equivalent, you aren't providing balance because the scales you are arguing for aren't even.

 

[misskarne]

From where I stand, the denial that some accusations are false is a sign that the speaker has no concern for truth.

Where did I say that no allegations are false? I clearly said some are. We have statistical data to prove some are. But you said they were common, and my response was to thoroughly refute that. Because to say false allegations are common is a sign that the speaker has no concern for the truth.

 

[Vagabond]

There is not a mountain of evidence against John.

And there does not appear to be a shred of admissible evidence in his favor.

 

[Prancer]

The worst abuse was done to coughlin by safesport

Again, I'm just gonna leave that right there.

It's very clear that many here are determined to see Coughlin in light of Nasser, are unmoved by his suicide, and can only accept a black-white reading of an investigation

Really? I don't think anyone sees John Coughlin as Nasser and have no idea why you would come to such a conclusion. No one has enough information to make a judgment like that. And to say that people are unmoved by his suicide? Suicide is a tragic thing. That doesn't mean everyone is convinced that his suicide means that the system needs to change.

We could fight over statistics for days.

Well, we could, but unless the fight was over statistical collection and calculation methods, there wouldn't be much point in it.

There is not a mountain of evidence against John.

And how do you know how much evidence there is?

 

[Spun Silver]

And there does not appear to be a shred of admissible evidence in his favor.

The word admissible is interesting - admissible by whom? And how do you know? Almost nothing is out in the open.

 

[caseyedwards]

I know situations where people ended their lives for the following reasons (relatives of my friends):
- divorce
- bankruptcy
- a law suite that lead to a loss of business

Do you propose to disallow: divorces, debt collection, tort law cases/claims?

I don’t support banning divorce because sometimes marriages just don’t work out and both people and children potentially can suffer very badly if it continued. Plus I think that if a person kills themsleves because they were divorced they had every opportunity to ask why and work with the person who wants do divorce them and try to prevent it.

I also oppose banning debt collection and tort law cases/claims because I assume the person entered into contracts with all knowledge of their responsibilities and have rights in the courts.

 

[caseyedwards]

Again, I'm just gonna leave that right there.



Really? I don't think anyone sees John Coughlin as Nasser and have no idea why you would come to such a conclusion. No one has enough information to make a judgment like that. And to say that people are unmoved by his suicide? Suicide is a tragic thing. That doesn't mean everyone is convinced that his suicide means that the system needs to change.



Well, we could, but unless the fight was over statistical collection and calculation methods, there wouldn't be much point in it.



And how do you know how much evidence there is?

Just because there isn’t enough evidence to prove coughlin is a Nassar doesn’t mean coughlin wasn’t being compared to nassar!

 

[Spun Silver]

Where did I say that no allegations are false? I clearly said some are. We have statistical data to prove some are. But you said they were common, and my response was to thoroughly refute that. Because to say false allegations are common is a sign that the speaker has no concern for the truth.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say they are common - I said "not that uncommon," by which I mean not as rare as people like you say. Are you familiar with the Tawana Brawley case? The Duke lacrosse team case? The Rolling Stone magazine rape story? The women who recanted after making false accusations about Neil Kavanagh? Do you really want to claim that all accusations are true? That's patently ridiculous. Do you want to reject the core principle of "innocent until proven guilty?" I would question the justice there. Do you want to base your justice claims on "no smoke without fire"? I would say there is some truth in the old adage, but some truth in general does not equal truth in a given case.