Euros vs. 4CC

[skateboy]

Okay, does anyone still think that Europeans is more prestigious than 4CC?

(For the record, I think they now hold equal prestige, based on the quality of skating. )

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Im happy that attendance in Anaheim, CA was so NICE for 4CC!!

Ive seen years past where was not much turnout.

I hope future events can be where they can secure a modest turnout!!! Love it.

 

[VGThuy]

Im happy that attendance in Anaheim, CA was so NICE for 4CC!!

Ive seen years past where was not much turnout.

I hope future events can be where they can secure a modest turnout!!! Love it.

I think it helped that it wasn't taking place in like Taiwan during the middle of a work week.

 

[Colonel Green]

Okay, does anyone still think that Europeans is more prestigious than 4CC?

(For the record, I think they now hold equal prestige, based on the quality of skating. )

As far as skating quality goes, there was never much of a gap overall, though obviously it depends on the discipline and the particular space and time -- Four Continents was where all the action was in the ladies division for the 2006-2010 quad, for instance, same with ice dance in 2010-2014, and the men's division in Four Continents has been dominant for the last two quads and counting.

But prestige isn't just about skating quality; and in that regard, Europeans having been around so much longer does count for something.

 

[Aerobicidal]

As someone who has attended both events in person, I feel uniquely qualified to answer this question!

Kidding about the qualification part, and I have no answer to which is more prestigious, but I do enjoy both of them. At 4CC we get North America v. Asia, obscure -stan country skaters (please get minimums for next season, Mambekova!), and a chance to see skaters like Carillo and Andrew Dodds get recognition, fans, maybe funding donors.

At Euros we get to see fans from pretty much every country competing there to show their spirit and their flags, the German fan with the drum (which I hated in person but I support the enthusiasm), weird mascots, '80s music between the skates, and fans booing because they think Galustyan and Kuchvalska are undermarked.

So, I would highly recommend both competitions, although personally I would prefer to invest in another Euros, especially if Larry Loupolover ever makes it there again.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I think it helped that it wasn't taking place in like Taiwan during the middle of a work week.

What were the days then? Anaheim hosted Thursday and Friday events.

The last time 4CC was in USA was it Colorado Springs? And it was very lowly attended. Right? Trying to remember.

I am impressed by the Anaheim turnout. That should be considered for a SkAm... more than Riverside, CA....

Im always happy for the skaters when they can skate for the rows to have butts in them.

 

[muffinplus]

Depends on the strength of the field to be honest...

 

[skatingguy]

. . . and fans booing because they think Galustyan and Kuchvalska are undermarked.

Fan or fans? I guess that depends on many contributors to the #TTW thread there are in attendance.

 

[allezfred]

This isn’t even up for a debate. Maybe when the top 4CC do not skip the competition during an Olympic year we can open up the conversation again.

 

[Colonel Green]

This isn’t even up for a debate. Maybe when the top 4CC do not skip the competition during an Olympic year we can open up the conversation again.

That's a function of when North America holds its national competitions, not the relative importance of Four Continents.

 

[bardtoob]

I think the prestige of 4CC rests with the quality of the field in particular disciplines. I don't think this needs to be said about Euros.

It is important to note that the North American Championships was the true analog to Euros, and the competition became defunct as Canada and the US introduced their fall internationals, Skate Canada International and Skate America.

If there was a fully attended annual Asian Figure Skating Championships, I think it would be very prestigious because of the Japanese, Chinese, and Korean participation.

 

[Aerobicidal]

Fan or fans? I guess that depends on many contributors to the #TTW thread there are in attendance.

At Bratislava Euros in 2016, there were dozens if not hundreds of fans booing Galustyan's SP score and Kuchvalska's FP score.

I wasn't booing, and I would also rather have a series of violent root canals than read the Team Trainwreck thread here, so I can't respond any more helpfully than that.

 

[skatingguy]

At Bratislava Euros in 2016, there were dozens if not hundreds of fans booing Galustyan's SP score and Kuchvalska's FP score.

Well colour me surprised.

I wasn't booing, and I would also rather have a series of violent root canals than read the Team Trainwreck thread here, so I can't respond any more helpfully than that.

It's not that bad. I find it at least someone what entertaining - though not as entertaining as you (I'm a big fan. ) - and some of the contributors do a nice job curating skaters social media into one place so I don't have to spend a lot of time looking for it myself.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

That's a function of when North America holds its national competitions, not the relative importance of Four Continents.

It does, at europeans we are guaranteed top European athletes to compete, provided they are not injured. The 4cc suffers from athletes skipping the competition and hence a weaker field, Quality of the field does matter

 

[manhn]

4CC in Vancouver in 2009 is the best skating event I ever attended live. Better than the Olympics, better than Worlds in Boston. It is interesting how someone like G&P actually won the event, but their reaction to winning a bronze this year was just so much more enthusiastic.

 

[Jarrett]

This isn’t even up for a debate. Maybe when the top 4CC do not skip the competition during an Olympic year we can open up the conversation again.

Any that probably wont happen if Euros are always before 4CC on the schedule. Also Euros has a long history that can't be erased ever if the quality of skating is as high or higher at 4CC. I was very happy to see people in the stands but they did list the tickets on groupon half off what they were trying to get initially. I still didn't go because that two hours drive from San Diego wasn't worth it for me.

 

[Skate Talker]

This isn’t even up for a debate. Maybe when the top 4CC do not skip the competition during an Olympic year we can open up the conversation again.

That's a function of when North America holds its national competitions, not the relative importance of Four Continents.

It does, at europeans we are guaranteed top European athletes to compete, provided they are not injured. The 4cc suffers from athletes skipping the competition and hence a weaker field, Quality of the field does matter

Any that probably wont happen if Euros are always before 4CC on the schedule. Also Euros has a long history that can't be erased ever if the quality of skating is as high or higher at 4CC. I was very happy to see people in the stands but they did list the tickets on groupon half off what they were trying to get initially. I still didn't go because that two hours drive from San Diego wasn't worth it for me.

Valid points here, valid points there, but imo in addition to the timing issues, the biggest reasons for top skater - and others too - skipping 4CC is the incredibly physically taxing travel and time zone adjustments involved with 4CC when compared to Europeans.

Some timing issues could be overcome on the short time frame from nationals to 4CC by holding earlier nationals in the US and Canada, but it's the system that has been in place forever and would be massively disruptive to change. The shorter time frame from the 4CC to Olympics and Worlds compared to the Europeans could be evened out by alternating dates between the two comps, but still more unfair to the loser in an Olympic year.

Writing this while watching the broadcast of TTYCT so hope it makes some sense.

 

[zebraswan]

I don't think one should be seen as more prestigious than the other, since skaters don't have an option of where they can go...you get what you get. Ideally, they should be given equal weight and equal attention to make things as fair as possible. That said, I always have and always will prefer Euros, just based on personal taste. I am not far from Anaheim, but I just wasn't tempted at all. If Daisuke or Yuzuru had been there...maybe.

 

[sharsk8s]

I think it depends on the year because the strength of the fields differs, but this year both euros and 4CC had strong competitors in every field. I think Euros seemed like a better event as a whole. The audience was amazing and their were many different broadcasts. It may have just been because 4CC wasn't in the best location this year, if it was in japan I am sure it would have been a different story. Looking forward to worlds, the Japanese audiences are some of my favorites and the competitions are usually well organized.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

It's not that bad. I find it at least someone what entertaining - though not as entertaining as you (I'm a big fan. ) - and some of the contributors do a nice job curating skaters social media into one place so I don't have to spend a lot of time looking for it myself.

I consider that trainwreck thread to be a trashy,seedy homosexual hangout. Needless to say,I avoid at all costs.

-BB

 

[alchemy void]

I just realized this was the 20th anniversary of Four Continents. I'm somewhat surprised the ISU didn't make this part of the messaging for the event (unless I totally missed it). I feel like 4CC will continue to grow in prestige as the years go by, and suspect in 10 years time very few top skaters will skip.

 

[Vash01]

If this is just an opinion (not a published article, interview, video, etc.) perhaps this discussion is better suited for the Trash Can forum.

 

[Japanfan]

This isn’t even up for a debate. Maybe when the top 4CC do not skip the competition during an Olympic year we can open up the conversation again.

That would be your opinion.

Insofar as Euros are prestigious, I see 4CCs as no less so.

Even if the top skaters don't attend 4CCs, it gives the next tier a chance on the international stage. To me that makes the competition all the more interesting, rather than less.

Also, someone who had attended both comps multiple times told me that the bottom half of the field at 4CCs had nothing on the bottom half at Europeans.

4CC in Vancouver in 2009 is the best skating event I ever attended live. Better than the Olympics, better than Worlds in Boston. It is interesting how someone like G&P actually won the event, but their reaction to winning a bronze this year was just so much more enthusiastic.

I can't really compare any 'regular' events to the Olympics, because they take place over a period of days in which you immerse yourself in skating (less immersion for GP events, obviously). Whereas Olympic events are scattered.

But I agree that 4CCs 2009 was amazing. Can't compare it to Boston, as I wasn't there.

 

[clairecloutier]

Like @zebraswan said, it’s not like skaters have a choice where to go. So I don’t really get why we even need to have this debate. North American and Asian skaters can’t go to Euros, and they deserve to have an event open to them that is of similar prestige & value. So I think it’s great that 4CCs exists, and fans should support it IMO instead of constantly complaining it isn’t as good as Euros. Would it somehow be better for NA/Asian skaters if 4CCs went away and was replaced by nothing? (For one thing, that wouldn’t be fair in terms of World standing points, etc.)

Of course an event that’s existed for 20 years (4CCs) isn’t going to have the same prestige as one that’s existed for 100+ years (Euros). That doesn’t mean it’s inherently worse. The fields at both events go up and down in quality.

I wish the ISU could somehow move the dates of 4CCs to be closer to Euros, so that we could reduce the problem of skaters skipping 4CCs during the Olympic years. That would make the general quality level of the event more consistent and increase its prestige.

ETA: In terms of which event do I personally just enjoy more, it really varies for me depending on the field. The men’s event at 4CCs is generally much deeper and better, at least over the last 5 or 8 years. 4CCs ladies has also generally been more interesting to me than Euros (personal taste). Dance and pairs still tend to be deeper overall at Euros, although the competition at the top is strong in dance at 4CCs. I just went to my first 4CCs & it was great. ? Someday maybe, I’ll go to Euros.

 

[taz'smum]

This isn’t even up for a debate. Maybe when the top 4CC do not skip the competition during an Olympic year we can open up the conversation again.

Yep, though from another perspective, I quite like the wealth being spread around.
It was good for H/B, M/C and P/P, as their ISU rankings got a great boost from making it to a major comp.
Yet from another perspective, that somewhat distorted the ISU rankings, with those teams having gained an unfair advantage over similar level teams from Europe.

 

[JeffClair1979]

Ice Dance is far more competitive at 4CC than Euros right now. This year, 4th at 4CC was 201.66, Bronze at Euros was 199.84. These are both ISU Championships, so please don't go there with the "you can't compare scores" stuff. I just can't back myself into the argument that certain skaters benefit more from certain competitions when, most of the time, the skaters can't control which continental championship they go to. These skaters ALL work hard to be better each and every time they compete. Euros will sometimes produce better scores for top skaters, and other times, 4CC will sometimes produce better scores for top skaters. What's important is whether the ISU considers them equal, not any of us.

 

[Japanfan]

So I think it’s great that 4CCs exists, and fans should support it IMO instead of constantly complaining it isn’t as good as Euros.

But why the complaint that it isn't as good as Euros? Because the top ranked skaters often don't go?

As I said, if that is the case I don't mind because I have a chance to see skaters I might not see at any other competition.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Ice Dance is far more competitive at 4CC than Euros right now. This year, 4th at 4CC was 201.66, Bronze at Euros was 199.84. These are both ISU Championships, so please don't go there with the "you can't compare scores" stuff. I just can't back myself into the argument that certain skaters benefit more from certain competitions when, most of the time, the skaters can't control which continental championship they go to. These skaters ALL work hard to be better each and every time they compete. Euros will sometimes produce better scores for top skaters, and other times, 4CC will sometimes produce better scores for top skaters. What's important is whether the ISU considers them equal, not any of us.

why stop at 3rd spot, why not go all the way down...
7th at Euros was 180.67, 4CC 169
8th Euros, 176.84 and 156 ish
9th 175 -149

4 cc gets few good skaters and then tails off very quickly, European is bit more uniform.

This year may not be the best year to compare dance scores as European dancing has been doing better with P/C, 3 Russian pairs (S/B, S/K and Z/G) and G/F etc... It is possible this year to have an all European podium as well.

 

[JeffClair1979]

World Ranking points drop just as drastically from 4th on down.

Maybe these skaters should choose where they are born (most of the time), or where they represent (if they have that option) a little more carefully. It would sure clear up this debate a lot faster.

 

[Japanfan]

It is possible this year to have an all European podium as well.

You mean at Worlds?

I think H/D might have something to say about that.